B.C. town at war over 'peace monument'

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-09-28 08:26pm

Darth Wong wrote: Getting free university tuition. There were quite a few news articles and interviews about people who admitted straight-up that they signed up for free schooling and didn't really expect to actually go fight, so they were looking for ways out of it.

Jesus Christ! I'm glad I served in the Canadian Army. Fuck I'd be pissed if my buddy who I thought I trusted with my life opted out because he was in it for the free education.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2004-09-28 08:37pm

I have no problem with people who refuse to go to war because they're morally against it. However, I don't think they should get an award just for running off to live in another country.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-09-28 09:06pm

My father served two tours in Vietnam, pre-Gulf of Tonkin, and his take on the dodgers who went to Canada or sat it out in jail was that a good many of them did take a stand on principle, something he can respect. He reserves his choice venom for the university deferment crowd, but there's a personal element to that... upon his return and going in on his GI Bill, he was bluntly informed by a counselor that he was taking up a slot that could get somebody a deferment.

Furthermore, he feels that the post-Tonkin war was a major clusterfuck constantly screwed up by the Pentagon and the White House micromanagement, and hence something worthy of being protested.

Perversely enough, he still favors some form of conscription, a topic we've debated quite warmly several times when we've gotten together.

Personally, I feel that conscription is one of the most nefarious of governmental abuses of its citizenry. If a government can't get enough volunteers to fight a war, that's the best evidence that it has no business being in said war.

If anything deserves a monument, it's the pointless slaughter that has taken place forever and a day because the powers-that-be have always felt it was fine and dandy to accost their citizens/subjects/serfs, stick weapons in their hands, and send them off to fight involuntarily.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2004-09-28 09:52pm

Darth Wong wrote: Getting free university tuition. There were quite a few news articles and interviews about people who admitted straight-up that they signed up for free schooling and didn't really expect to actually go fight, so they were looking for ways out of it.

In the USN, we call those guys "Idiots".

And the people who think they know how to get out? "Sea-lawyers".

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-09-30 04:37pm

frigidmagi wrote:The Draft was supremly unfair. You could buy your way out, step around it by going to college and goofing off for 4 years, have Daddy pull strings if you knew the right people...

Meanwhile you tell those that don't have those options that it's part of their civic duty to subject themselves to the draft.

I don't insult the draft dodgers. However I do rountily insult those who spat on returning troops and personnal who did nothing more than what their nation asked of them.

No veterans were spat upon. It's a bullshit urban legend, a lie that was first invented by the Nazis after Germany lost WW1. There is an excellent book by Jerry Lembcke, The Spitting Image, that points out that there are no police, military, FBI, newspaper, TV or radio reports from that time even mentioning such attacks (or eggings, for that matter).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-30 04:40pm

Elfdart wrote:
frigidmagi wrote:The Draft was supremly unfair. You could buy your way out, step around it by going to college and goofing off for 4 years, have Daddy pull strings if you knew the right people...

Meanwhile you tell those that don't have those options that it's part of their civic duty to subject themselves to the draft.

I don't insult the draft dodgers. However I do rountily insult those who spat on returning troops and personnal who did nothing more than what their nation asked of them.
No veterans were spat upon. It's a bullshit urban legend, a lie that was first invented by the Nazis after Germany lost WW1. There is an excellent book by Jerry Lembcke, The Spitting Image, that points out that there are no police, military, FBI, newspaper, TV or radio reports from that time even mentioning such attacks (or eggings, for that matter).

Are you saying that "First Blood" was wrong? Heathen!

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2004-09-30 05:04pm

No veterans were spat upon. It's a bullshit urban legend, a lie that was first invented by the Nazis after Germany lost WW1. There is an excellent book by Jerry Lembcke, The Spitting Image, that points out that there are no police, military, FBI, newspaper, TV or radio reports from that time even mentioning such attacks (or eggings, for that matter).

However I have heard individuals who claim it happened to them. A relatively trivial google search of "I was spat upon" + vietnam turns up this little gem:

http://www.rlg.org/annmtg/lembcke99.html
I note the name of the author, Jerry Lembcke, and the following quote:

I cannot, of course, prove to anyone's satisfaction that spitting incidents like these did not happen. Indeed, it seems likely to me that it probably did happen to some veteran, some time, some place.

Yes the spitting image did become an urban legend, was greatly exaggerated, but even your favored author concludes it likely did happen. Asserting that NO veterans ever got spat upon misses the larger issues: namely that the spitting myth served as a way to denigrate the anti-war movement and that there WAS a trend within some of the anti-war movements were antipathic to veterans. Some veterans did get a truly raw deal from specific individuals and even America at large.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-09-30 07:32pm

Elfdart wrote:
frigidmagi wrote:The Draft was supremly unfair. You could buy your way out, step around it by going to college and goofing off for 4 years, have Daddy pull strings if you knew the right people...

Meanwhile you tell those that don't have those options that it's part of their civic duty to subject themselves to the draft.

I don't insult the draft dodgers. However I do rountily insult those who spat on returning troops and personnal who did nothing more than what their nation asked of them.
No veterans were spat upon. It's a bullshit urban legend, a lie that was first invented by the Nazis after Germany lost WW1. There is an excellent book by Jerry Lembcke, The Spitting Image, that points out that there are no police, military, FBI, newspaper, TV or radio reports from that time even mentioning such attacks (or eggings, for that matter).

my mother-in-law once counted herself among the hippe antiwar set. and has personally admittied to spitting on an officer or two. She regrets it now, but when you are young and passionate you let yourself get carried away.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-09-30 07:56pm

Korvan wrote: Because if you were really willing to stand up for your principles rather than just wanting to save your own ass, you'd stay in the US, refuse to serve and do your prison time.

Why? what are the advantages of going to prison? what can one do against the war in a prison? probably a symbolic thing, eh. which symbolic thing? i can´t see anything good about going to prison. canada seems mor appealing.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2004-09-30 08:12pm

Why? what are the advantages of going to prison? what can one do against the war in a prison? probably a symbolic thing, eh. which symbolic thing? i can´t see anything good about going to prison. canada seems mor appealing.

Going to trial invites much more media glare and provides a much better platform for the anti-war crowd. While not only cowards went to Canada, cowards did go. It is much harder to paint a conscientus objector as a coward if he is willing to suffer for his conviction, rather than follow the same path an abject coward might take.

Much like slavery and racism, going to Canada was far easier on the individual in question; however facing down police dogs, water cannon, jailtime, etc. is far more powerful to effect policy change.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-10-01 03:13am

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Elfdart wrote:
frigidmagi wrote:The Draft was supremly unfair. You could buy your way out, step around it by going to college and goofing off for 4 years, have Daddy pull strings if you knew the right people...

Meanwhile you tell those that don't have those options that it's part of their civic duty to subject themselves to the draft.

I don't insult the draft dodgers. However I do rountily insult those who spat on returning troops and personnal who did nothing more than what their nation asked of them.
No veterans were spat upon. It's a bullshit urban legend, a lie that was first invented by the Nazis after Germany lost WW1. There is an excellent book by Jerry Lembcke, The Spitting Image, that points out that there are no police, military, FBI, newspaper, TV or radio reports from that time even mentioning such attacks (or eggings, for that matter).
my mother-in-law once counted herself among the hippe antiwar set. and has personally admittied to spitting on an officer or two. She regrets it now, but when you are young and passionate you let yourself get carried away.

Military or police officer? There just might have been a vet or two getting attacked. It's possible, just as during the Middle Ages there might have actually been a midwife or two who murdered babies. But whether it's spat-upon veterans or witches, we're in urban legend territory here.

The whole notion of hippies physically attacking veterans fails the smell test. Not one demonstrator got his or her face rearranged for their trouble? Not one of them was arrested or even reported by/ to the police (many of whom are ex-military themselves)? Please. If demonstrators were physically attacking servicemen, the police and other authorities wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of trumping up charges and using agents provocateur to arrest, jail and prosecute the hippies, would they?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-10-01 03:23am

Darth Wong wrote:
Elfdart wrote:
frigidmagi wrote:The Draft was supremly unfair. You could buy your way out, step around it by going to college and goofing off for 4 years, have Daddy pull strings if you knew the right people...

Meanwhile you tell those that don't have those options that it's part of their civic duty to subject themselves to the draft.

I don't insult the draft dodgers. However I do rountily insult those who spat on returning troops and personnal who did nothing more than what their nation asked of them.
No veterans were spat upon. It's a bullshit urban legend, a lie that was first invented by the Nazis after Germany lost WW1. There is an excellent book by Jerry Lembcke, The Spitting Image, that points out that there are no police, military, FBI, newspaper, TV or radio reports from that time even mentioning such attacks (or eggings, for that matter).
Are you saying that "First Blood" was wrong? Heathen!

I made the mistake of watching that movie with my dad when it came out. His review: "No way longhaired queerbait like that would ever make it in the door at Fort Bragg."

I was just a kid when those movies came out and I came to the conclusion that since Brian Dennehy kicked Rambo's ass in First Blood (although he was undone by bad luck and incompetent help), and Rambo beat the Vietnamese, maybe Uncle Sam should have sent Dennehy to fight the Viet Cong. The bad guy from Silverado could have won the war and changed history.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-10-01 07:00am

Elfdart wrote: Military or police officer? There just might have been a vet or two getting attacked. It's possible, just as during the Middle Ages there might have actually been a midwife or two who murdered babies. But whether it's spat-upon veterans or witches, we're in urban legend territory here.

The whole notion of hippies physically attacking veterans fails the smell test. Not one demonstrator got his or her face rearranged for their trouble? Not one of them was arrested or even reported by/ to the police (many of whom are ex-military themselves)? Please. If demonstrators were physically attacking servicemen, the police and other authorities wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of trumping up charges and using agents provocateur to arrest, jail and prosecute the hippies, would they?

army. Vietnam vet. and it was damn common from what she's told me. I'm inclined to beleive a remorseful primary source than some douchebag trying to sell a book by stirring up controversy.

Here's a thought, while you're denying things of historical record why don't you tell us how Ethel and Julius weren't spies, Pol Pot didn't hurt anyone and Joe Stalin was just misunderstood.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2004-10-01 07:08am

Col. Crackpot wrote:
army. Vietnam vet. and it was damn common from what she's told me. I'm inclined to beleive a remorseful primary source than some douchebag trying to sell a book by stirring up controversy.

Gotta catch em all ~ An-ec-dotes!

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-10-01 07:12am

Hamel wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:
army. Vietnam vet. and it was damn common from what she's told me. I'm inclined to beleive a remorseful primary source than some douchebag trying to sell a book by stirring up controversy.
Gotta catch em all ~ An-ec-dotes!

i can't believe this is even in dispute. you disgust me.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2004-10-01 07:30am

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Hamel wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:
army. Vietnam vet. and it was damn common from what she's told me. I'm inclined to beleive a remorseful primary source than some douchebag trying to sell a book by stirring up controversy.
Gotta catch em all ~ An-ec-dotes!

i can't believe this is even in dispute. you disgust me.

You disgust Churles B Burles to the Zurles.

So a few people got spat on. This is quite different from an assload of vets getting the treatment, which is what a ton of anti-hippies claim. The author's findings are handwaved away and Elf's point is not addressed: why didn't the justice system catch any of these liberal antiamerican communist socialist sons of whores?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-10-01 10:10am

This passage from Beach Music by Pat Conroy says it all:

"A lot of us were spit on when we came back to this country," said Capers.

"Bullshit," I said. "A lie. An urban myth. I've heard it a thousand times and I don't believe a word of it. And it always happens in the airport."

"That's where it happened to me," said Capers.

"If it happened as much as Vietnam vets claim it happened, no one during those years could have stood up in the airports of America with all that spittle on the floor. You're lying, Capers, and if it happened you should have rammed the teeth down the asshole's throat that did it. That's what I can't believe. A million vets get spit on and no one loses a tooth. No wonder you lost the fucking war."

Lembcke is no "douchebag". He served in the Navy during Vietnam, and his book is several years old, so one can hardly accuse him of pimping a book. His book doesn't just debunk a ridiculous urban legend. He also shows that the spat-upon veteran myth goes back to the persecution complex and alienation some vets on the losing side of a war feel.

After the Civil War, disgruntled war veterans who blamed their defeat on minorities, anti-war activists, Jews, and Those Damn Politicians Who Made Us Fight With One Hand Tied Behind Our BacksTM formed the KKK. After WW1, malcontent right-wing vets formed the Freikorps and the Nazi Party. Here's Hermann Goering on the subject:

"very young boys, degenerate deserters, and prostitutes tore the insignia off our best front line soldiers and spat on their field grey uniforms".

Gee, the only thing missing from Fatso Goering's rogues gallery is Jane Fonda! On the other hand, the Germans did have Marlene Dietrich to blame their losses on. So the American version of the Freikorps is not just made up of bullshit artists, but unoriginal bullshit artists at that.