Secularising Islam

[The_Nice_Guy]

I've seen a lot of bitching about the current Bush policy. So my open-ended question to the collective wisdom of the board here is:

How would you secularise the religion of Islam and end the threat of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism?

Give concrete steps, keeping in mind conditions and limitations. Like world opinion, oil supplies, alliances etc.

TWG

[Sarevok]

It is not easy to do. The Koran and Hadith can not be changed. However the public perception of how they are perceived can be changed. So a good start would be educating the public about the peaceful aspects of Islam.

Imams in muslim countries often spew hatred in their sermons. This has to stop. The goverment could try outlawing hatred filled sermons.

The Madrasha educatipm syllabous needs to be revised to conform to the 21st century. As it stands most madrashah students are not good at any other jobs other than ones directly related to religon like becomings Imams, mullhas, religious teachers etc. Including much more science and technical education in madrashas could change that give the students a good chance of a normal job.

[salm]

perhaps 200 years of enlightenment like the western cultur had can do the trick.

[Wired_Grenadier]

You would have to change the core of the religion, as Islam by definition cannot allow secularity. Islam in that regard is more like an all-surrounding ideology, it is society, state and religion, as opposed to modern christianity, which is just religion.

[Sarevok]

You would have to change the core of the religion, as Islam by definition cannot allow secularity. Islam in that regard is more like an all-surrounding ideology, it is society, state and religion, as opposed to modern christianity, which is just religion.

Well the primary religious text, the holy koran can not be changed in anyway. So the best bet would be to do what Indonesia and Malaysia did. Keep religon and modern society at the same time.

[fgalkin]

perhaps 200 years of enlightenment like the western cultur had can do the trick.

Hardly. Just look at the fundies in the US and in some places in Europe.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

I've seen a lot of bitching about the current Bush policy. So my open-ended question to the collective wisdom of the board here is:

How would you secularise the religion of Islam and end the threat of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism?

Wrong question. The correct question is: "is it possible for the western world to secularize Islam at will, and if not, then is it wise to even try?" And the answer is "no, and no".

Your question presumes that the answer is "yes and yes" and then goes on to ask how it should be done. It's Quixotic.

[fgalkin]

I've seen a lot of bitching about the current Bush policy. So my open-ended question to the collective wisdom of the board here is:

How would you secularise the religion of Islam and end the threat of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism?

Wrong question. The correct question is: "is it possible for the western world to secularize Islam at will, and if not, then is it wise to even try?" And the answer is "no, and no".

Your question presumes that the answer is "yes and yes" and then goes on to ask how it should be done. It's Quixotic.

Well, its technically possible, but realistically unfeasible. It would involve the conquest of every muslim country, the exectution of every radical muslim cleric and much of their followers, the installment of a totalitarian state where a watered-down form of Islam is the official ideology, and extensive brainwashing. After a few generations, it may produce results.

Like I said, realistically unfeasible, as it would requre the combined effort of the entire non-Muslim world. Not to mention the fact that its little better than Shep's NUKEY NUKEY solution

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[salm]

perhaps 200 years of enlightenment like the western cultur had can do the trick.

Hardly. Just look at the fundies in the US and in some places in Europe.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

oh, come on, the US is only one of about 35 countries which are considered western. europe doesn´t spawn a relevant amount of fundies.
methinks the enlightenment worked quite fine.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Despite the fall in Christian followers in recent years, I doubt we'll ever be rid of it, nor the US be completely free of it acting like a remora to the gov't.

It'd be a valiant effort to do so, however, the implications of doing so may be worse if the Middle-East just sees us as trying to eliminate their ethnic identity (which most would see it as I imagine).

[fgalkin]

perhaps 200 years of enlightenment like the western cultur had can do the trick.

Hardly. Just look at the fundies in the US and in some places in Europe.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

oh, come on, the US is only one of about 35 countries which are considered western. europe doesn´t spawn a relevant amount of fundies.
methinks the enlightenment worked quite fine.

While there are no "fundamentalists" in the US sense, there are a lot of conservative Catholics in Southern Europe. The main distinction between them and US fundies is that the Catholic church has a strict doctrine, and disallows the frivoluos interpretation of the Bible, which is popular among both Protestantism and Islam. The difference betwen the US and Europe is the religion itself changed under the Enlightment principles.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[salm]

Despite the fall in Christian followers in recent years, I doubt we'll ever be rid of it, nor the US be completely free of it acting like a remora to the gov't.

It'd be a valiant effort to do so, however, the implications of doing so may be worse if the Middle-East just sees us as trying to eliminate their ethnic identity (which most would see it as I imagine).

it doesn´t really matter if we completely get rid of christians or muslims. we only need to get rid of the fundies, and the vast majority of the western world managed to get rid of most of the fundies.

[General Zod]

Despite the fall in Christian followers in recent years, I doubt we'll ever be rid of it, nor the US be completely free of it acting like a remora to the gov't.

It'd be a valiant effort to do so, however, the implications of doing so may be worse if the Middle-East just sees us as trying to eliminate their ethnic identity (which most would see it as I imagine).

it doesn´t really matter if we completely get rid of christians or muslims. we only need to get rid of the fundies, and the vast majority of the western world managed to get rid of most of the fundies.

you'll never be able to get rid of the fundamentalists completely without doing away with religion in and of itself. there's always going to be one or two rabid extremists in almost any group you can imagine.

[fgalkin]

Despite the fall in Christian followers in recent years, I doubt we'll ever be rid of it, nor the US be completely free of it acting like a remora to the gov't.

It'd be a valiant effort to do so, however, the implications of doing so may be worse if the Middle-East just sees us as trying to eliminate their ethnic identity (which most would see it as I imagine).

it doesn´t really matter if we completely get rid of christians or muslims. we only need to get rid of the fundies, and the vast majority of the western world managed to get rid of most of the fundies.

Like I said, it was because the religion itself changed, and that's not going to happen to Islam. (or protestantism)

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[salm]

While there are no "fundamentalists" in the US sense, there are a lot of conservative Catholics in Southern Europe. The main distinction between them and US fundies is that the Catholic church has a strict doctrine, and disallows the frivoluos interpretation of the Bible,

i think the main distinction is that euro christians tend to see their faith as more of a privat thing and keep their crap to themselves wheras some us fundies try to spread their shit and even try to get it into science school books.

which is popular among both Protestantism and Islam.

around here protestants tend to be less conservative than catholics.

The difference betwen the US and Europe is the religion itself changed under the Enlightment principles.

exactly. that´s why i´m proposing 200 years of enlightenment for islam.

[salm]

you'll never be able to get rid of the fundamentalists completely without doing away with religion in and of itself. there's always going to be one or two rabid extremists in almost any group you can imagine.

since it´s impossible to get rid of religion completely the point is moot.
we might not be rid of ALL fundies but the number of fundies in europe is small enough that they hardly matter.

[salm]

Like I said, it was because the religion itself changed, and that's not going to happen to Islam. (or protestantism)

it happened to protestant here. why shouldn´t it happen to protestants elsewhere or to muslims?

[salm]

note that i don´t know how to ignite enlightenment nor do i claim that it´s ignightable at all from outside.

[fgalkin]

i think the main distinction is that euro christians tend to see their faith as more of a privat thing and keep their crap to themselves wheras some us fundies try to spread their shit and even try to get it into science school books.

That is one of the main beliefs of the evangelical movement

around here protestants tend to be less conservative than catholics.

because of that very same frivolous interpretation of the Bible. Except that in Europe the process went in a different direction than that in the US

exactly. that´s why i´m proposing 200 years of enlightenment for islam.

The odds are they're going to take the US route, rather than the European one. There was a lot involved in the rise of modern European liberalism, which is what really contributed to the change, IMO, and I don't think these conditions will present themselves to the Islamic world

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Durandal]

I've seen a lot of bitching about the current Bush policy. So my open-ended question to the collective wisdom of the board here is:

How would you secularise the religion of Islam and end the threat of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism?

Give concrete steps, keeping in mind conditions and limitations. Like world opinion, oil supplies, alliances etc.

Loaded question. You're assuming that anyone who criticizes Bush's policy for democratizing the Middle East (not secularizing -- what the fuck would make you think that a creationist is interested in secularizing anything?) has a better plan for doing so rather than simply saying that we shouldn't even bother.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Wrong question. The correct question is: "is it possible for the western world to secularize Islam at will, and if not, then is it wise to even try?" And the answer is "no, and no".

Your question presumes that the answer is "yes and yes" and then goes on to ask how it should be done. It's Quixotic.

So... what our best bet then? Nukey nukey? Or do we wait it out?

[Durandal]

Develop alternative energy sources over the long-term and just let them stew in their little shithole. The only reason anyone puts up with the Middle East's bullshit is because they have oil. Remove that advantage, and their whole society will just collapse.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I'm with Durandal. The sooner we get fusion, the sooner we can pull our interests out of there and leave them be. They don't want the West in there, we don't want to be there, it's a win-win.

[Wired_Grenadier]

Yeah, and then we'll get a Völkerwanderung par excellence, wonderful...

[Admiral Valdemar]

If you have a better idea, let's hear it. I see no reason why "The Great Satan" should stay any longer. If it wasn't painfully clear prior to Iraq, it is now that we're simply not wanted.

Leave them be. Let them stew in their own self-pity after they lose us as a hatred figure. Oil will only last so long and when the black gold runs out, so too will the patience of Western investers who will have found other niches to settle into, such as hydrogen and fusion.