The Rebellion - terrorists or freedom fighters

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Page 148 of the original print:

That's clearly not the same thing at all. I originally asked for the quote that says that the Emperor would have ordered the destruction of Endor as soon as the battle station is completed.

You gave me a quotation of an order to destroy Endor if the shield is destroyed (thus implying the end of the DSII may be very near).

[Vympel]

Yeah, but that's the only thing in the novelization that could lead anyone to anything close to that conclusion, just clearing that discrepancy up.

[Ender]

Page 148 of the original print:

That's clearly not the same thing at all. I originally asked for the quote that says that the Emperor would have ordered the destruction of Endor as soon as the battle station is completed.

He messed up his source. That part comes from the OT ITW. DS page, bottom right corner.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

He messed up his source. That part comes from the OT ITW. DS page, bottom right corner.

And exactly what does it say?

BTW, what's the exact of that book. I've been trying to buy that book but I don't know whether it is Inside the Worlds of the Original Trilogy, Inside the Worlds of Classic Star Wars or Inside the Worlds: Trilogy" or what. And I don't want to risk getting the wrong book. I'm taking a desperate gamble using E-commerce as it is.

[Vympel]

Just make sure the cover has Obi-Wan's homestead on it dude. Even I've got it by now.

(and yes, the title is teH confusing)

PS: Frustrating that I didn't include the title, isn't it?

[Vympel]

I kill me.

Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy

That's the name.

God I love DK books. Still need ITW TPM and ITW AOTC. Too bad I can't find em anywhere- will have to order from the net.

[Ghost Rider]

Pg 43 ITWoSWT

The Death Star II is not parked in a natural synchronous orbit above the Forest Moon, so remaining over one point on the moon's surface requires a considerable uplift force against Endor's gravity. Initially, the station was supported by a repulsorlift field projected from the same ground facility that would eventually supply the station with it's defensive shield. Tales told by Ewok shamans relate that the extra weight on the moon's crust had dramatic side effects, including massive groundquakes,land that shifted and buckled, and lakes that spilled out of their natural basins. After crushing the Rebel Alliance, the Emperor had planned to obliterate Endor as Moff Tarkin had Despayre (the construction site of the original Death star) and Alderaan. In order to deliver a spectacular, planet destroying burst, the station's hypermatter reactor would have to have been able the generate power equivalent to hundreds of super-giant stars.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The Death Star II is not parked in a natural synchronous orbit above the Forest Moon, so remaining over one point on the moon's surface requires a considerable uplift force against Endor's gravity. Initially, the station was supported by a repulsorlift field projected from the same ground facility that would eventually supply the station with it's defensive shield. Tales told by Ewok shamans relate that the extra weight on the moon's crust had dramatic side effects, including massive groundquakes,land that shifted and buckled, and lakes that spilled out of their natural basins. After crushing the Rebel Alliance, the Emperor had planned to obliterate Endor as Moff Tarkin had Despayre (the construction site of the original Death star) and Alderaan. In order to deliver a spectacular, planet destroying burst, the station's hypermatter reactor would have to have been able the generate power equivalent to hundreds of super-giant stars.

Ah crap. Isn't it amazing that whenever there is a choice A or choice B, a SW author has to write something new and damning about the Empire? they do this for the women on Imperial ships issue and all that...

Oh well, I could still point out, then, that the Rebels don't really know that for a fact, so as far as they are concerned, they are still sending the Ewoks to die, and far more painfully than a quick death by the DS. And again, by Imperial definition, they aren't sentient anyway, so it at least isn't an atrocity (to them) to blow the moon up as a test target.

Oh well, and I guess there is nothing to be done with such a huge planet. If it was traveling at orbital speed, it still won't have been that great for the moon anyway at that altitude.

[PainRack]

Certainly the instituion damage was a factor (though that was greatly mitigated by the fact many of the old Imp bureaucrats agreed to stay on to run the nation).

That may actually had been damaging, due to the friction between "rebels and Imps", implied in The New Rebellion as well as further texts. We may even argue that this was why in the Thrawn duology, central power in the Republic had been even further decentralised.

But with the structure they set up and the caliber of people they are putting in the posts, the NR is basically a paper structure in the wind. If you do nothing to stress it, it'd hold. Put it up against mere Yevethans and it is at its very limit. Put it against the Vong (remember, a huge percentage of Vong wound up fitting onto one planet, which gives real limits on their population and real power) shattered the illusion it is a workable government.

That is undeniable. BUT, so were many other starting nations. The United States themselves offer many relevent examples of the difficulty of tranistion of power, especially in context of federal powers to state.

DFR provides good clues as to what a joke the NR government is. It starts with Borski managing to get Ackbar relieved, and he offers to "take charge of the Supreme Command". Really. Why isn't someone already in that position until Ackbar is either cleared or convicted? Borski is plainly unqualified to be Supreme Commander, and in a working government, he cannot possibly fill that role, but he seems to think he can.

On the council. While Timothy Zahn ideas on the council was never fully fleshed, the X-wing comics and later EU established that the provisonal government, later the Republic was ruled by a council of "leaders", of which Admiral Ackbar represented the military side. It is not impossible for a civilian to represent the military, like a certain Donald Rumsfield anyone?

Chapter 6 is even more of a joke. We are talking about one convoy of such low importance it was only guarded by one Bulk Cruiser, a NR Wing of fighters and a single frigate. Thrawn seems to think Ackbar would normally have had a role in planning this tiny, insignificant, routine operation. Assuming he's right, Ackbar plain doesn't have a proper structure under him. Such a small thing should never even get to his eyes, now that he's the Supreme Commander of Military Forces over 3/4ths of the Galaxy.

Chiang Kai Shak, ruler of the KMT and most of china, invested personal time and efforts on the new German divisions, china first domestic aircraft, fighter squadron and so on and forth. This, when he had an entire government to run too.
The idea was that Admiral Ackbar was involved in solving the problem of convoy escorts, like the retrofitting of the Bulk cruiser to carry fighters.

The entire thing near the end is a scandal. Wedge Antilles was clearly insubordinate and should have at least faced a Board of Inquiry on his return. As a superior officer, Virgilio does have the right to order Wedge to return on his authority as senior military commander of the scene, and Wedge was insubordinate to have refused.

Agreed.

Captain Virgilio, his crew, and his X-Wing squadrons are ridiculously unreliable. The only issue here is that Fey'lya claims that his authority came from Mon Mothma herself, which it seems to be. Borsk's orders, while cruel sounding and clearly self-centered, were not blatantly wrong in any way - the Escort Frigate does have little chance against the Star Destroyer once it gets into range of its main gunnery, so running while they can is clearly a sensible idea.

So how the fuck can Virgilio change his mind over following orders just because Karrde said something about Fey'lya's motives. Sure, Borsk was a dolt for admitting it right then and there, but any soldier should have known what they are really worth to those fucking politicians up there - pawns. It is cruel, but it is the truth, and honestly, if people high up don't think like that, they would not be able to make some hard decisions that require making.

Well............ to make an apologist statement, Feylya orders can be consituted as "Lack of Moral Fibre".

What I was more shocked at in that incident was, apparently, no one bothered to comns Coruscant or any other fleet HQ to seek orders, until they decided to revolt against Feylya orders. That suggests that the level of command cohesion in the Republic forces were abysmal. Something that can be attributed to the "newness" of the military, but one that will ultimately be reflected in the downfall of Coruscant.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sure it was mind controlling? I have no doubt Palpatine tapped people a bit - hell, just by talking to them he might have tapped them whether he even wants to or not.

The Empire is an undoubtably and objectively evil entity. One only needs to grasp the Empire's future as revealed by The Dark Empire Sourcebook, Dark Empire, and The Dark Side Sourcebook to see that.

Remember, however, that all your views about those so called atrocities is from the Rebels. They control virtually all of what history leaked out.

That does not mean that they did not happen. You need countermanding evidence.

Sieges are ineffective if the planet is self sufficient.

Which next to no planets will be - at all. Coruscant and other city planets were probably not much more than a week from starvation and collapse at any given time. They're the extreme lower limit, but until you get to outward colonies where major resource hubs for foodstuffs and shipping and manufacturing do not give a shit about to establish major routes, almost every world will be not self-sufficient. The Republic went through many wars, some of them large, and over 25,000 years. And it was never a strategic imperative before.

they weren't self sufficient in essentials like food, they would starve and die off rather unpleasantly. At least now, they were annihilated in a painless eyeblink.

I sincerely doubt all of Alderaan was a Masada waiting to happen. Some turncoat would betray the Alderaanian Royal Family, and Palpatine would have his rebel world.

Purely using Action Analysis, Even the Emperor's last order to blow up Endor could be seen in a positive light. With the shield down, fighters can infiltrate his half completed station, so he might be already planning on losing it. When the Death Star blows up, it will cost a Holocaust on Endor. But if he 'ruthlessly' blows up Endor, it is a very quick and merciful death for the Ewoks (surely far better than starving in nuclear winter) and the frag pattern may well be able to engulf the Rebel fleet. You can really call it his last noble act as an Emperor, kind of, anyway.

Are you on crack? Are you really giving Lord Darth Sidious such credit as a altruist? Intent does matter in analyses of morality, and Palpatine could not give less of a shit about the Ewoks. And its not a noble sacrifice - he was not going to die.

Terror is the only way to stop people that won't Respect Authority or are naturally law-abiding.

The Empire is a police state. The U.S. maintains law and order, and despite some disturbing civil rights problems right now, it is by-and-large a free and pluralistic state. You create a false dilemma between free peoples and obedient peoples. I find that disturbing.

Yes, the EU is a tip of an iceberg, but a better analogy is a very tiny sample of the population, with the samples picked in a biased manner.

Bias is assumed here, and moreover, bias does not prove disinformation. Believe it or not, Michael Moore can tell you the truth about gun laws, and George W. Bush could tell you some true things about Iraq. The fact that the sources are biased is irrelevent to their veracity. Sure, it makes it less likely, but since you're whining about the biased samples, you lack the reference of other data and can prove nothing.

I'm afraid you're off on an assumption. The maximalist arguments deal with far more concrete things: raw figures of starships, industrial capacities, etc. It is not at all like this. And moreover, you're defending an interim system set up by and for the Sith übermensch with the express purpose of subsuming the entire galaxy into his Will and Ego. Individuality would quite literally cease to exist. I would say that the default assumption is these are evil assholes and one should provide their own concrete evidence that they are in fact, warm fuzzy fellows who dress up in pink and hand candy to children.

Realistically, morality will most likely be in a Bell Curve. There are a few goons that would do atrocities, and a few saints and everyone else. Since they showed us saints for the NR and goons for the Imperials, one suspects they are running out of NR saints to show us (and certainly they had no saints left by NJO) and running out of Imperial goons.

This assumes the means of the two bell curves (GE and NR) are the same. There's no evidence to suggest that.

Face it, it was Imperial policy to prove loyalty by committing acts of genocide. It was Imperial policy to commit atrocities and terrorist attacks on their own citizenry to frame political dissidents and insurgents. It was Imperial policy to institutionally deprive non-humans of their civil rights.

Remember the NR isn't really that great. Which is probably why they have to keep emphasizing the Imperials are goons. Let one whiff of doubt leak in and ...

Give me a break. You haven't a shred of evidence.

Incompetence never equals malice or evil. The New Republic is the former, and the Galactic Empire is undeniably the latter.

(Take the incident at the time of Solo Command. The book tries to emphasize on how Zsinj is such a goon for sending these brainwashed saboteurs in to split the New Republic. The cold truth is, however, that it shows how thin the facade of "all species are equal" is in the New Republic. If America was the New Republic, after 9/11, they would have banned Muslims and Islam followers from all their military units. Zsinj only recognized this fact and tried to prove it to the world (thus, of course, coincidentally more people to join him), only to be thwarted by the New Republic, who of course warps the history so as to try and push all the blame to Zsinj).

Are you delusional? He is the one who made the brainwashed Manchurian Candidate-style assassins. He is the one who aimed to socially destabilize the New Republic. And furthermore, since High Human Culture has been set by decree from the privy council for the last twenty years until they took Coruscant, why would you blame the social problems of interspecies interaction on the New Republic? They have been in power for a few years at best.

[Kurgan]

Remember, however, that all your views about those so called atrocities is from the Rebels. They control virtually all of what history leaked out.

It is hard to imagine how defeating an enemy that is intent on exterminating you is a bad thing for your people.

I was just going to address the topic before somebody added "Well the New Republic is evil because they killed the YV! But the Empire woulda stopped 'em!" etc.

Really, the choice between the NR and the Empire is one between extremely harsh order and benevolent incompetence, as the Yuuzhan Vong incident proves so glaringly.

Sure. Sort of like the Old Republic. And isn't the logic that the Empire would have slaughtered the YV as well? Only difference being they would have done it with fewer casualties on their own side (that is, until they got back to terrorizing their own citizens).

Rule #1 before launching a 300 trillion casualty Galactic Civil War: Make sure that your ideas for ruling the galaxy will actually be an improvement. Or else you just killed 300 trillion people for nothing, and may have doomed a similar amount in the future, because the government would have to be changed again, even if we don't count how your incompetent governmental structure might be a perfect lure for some enemy power.

The New Republic was based on the old was it not? (Including necessary retcons for Lucas's prequels of course). The reason the Republic fell to the Empire was due to Palpatine's meddling. And while one could argue that like Hitler "the time was right for a strong leader to step in" there are only two Sith Lords out there capable of doing what Palpatine did.

Sieges are ineffective if the planet is self sufficient. Their ability to defy the Empire under the shield alone might inspire other attempts.

True. However, if they are planet locked, they can't exactly influence Galactic affairs can they? Well, I suppose you'd need to block their off world communication, or they could broadcast anti-government slogans to the rest of the galaxy or something. But if you stop them from sending out ships, that means no trade, nobody comes or goes without you having a say in it.

Besides, if the Alderaanians refused to give (since the Empire is not about to give, I think everyone agrees on that) and they weren't self sufficient in essentials like food, they would starve and die off rather unpleasantly. At least now, they were annihilated in a painless eyeblink.

One could argue that eventually they would give in rather than all perish, and having a few people die off due to starvation is better than massacring an entire world. I mean heck, what a waste, to destroy an entire planet!

Purely using Action Analysis, Even the Emperor's last order to blow up Endor could be seen in a positive light. With the shield down, fighters can infiltrate his half completed station, so he might be already planning on losing it. When the Death Star blows up, it will cost a Holocaust on Endor. But if he 'ruthlessly' blows up Endor, it is a very quick and merciful death for the Ewoks (surely far better than starving in nuclear winter) and the frag pattern may well be able to engulf the Rebel fleet. You can really call it his last noble act as an Emperor, kind of, anyway.

An interesting way to look at it, though the novelization disagrees, iirc.

Terror is the only way to stop people that won't Respect Authority or are naturally law-abiding.

But when the terror itself insights the rebellion, then it's a foolish action. Terror itself ensures that even the law-abiding aren't safe, making obeying the law in the hopes of escaping punishment futile.

Of course they had to go and try to destroy the Death Star. How many people would continue to support a Rebellion movement if the penalty for collaboration increased to "Destruction of your Entire Planet"? This is just about survival, and I ain't giving points to Rebels who have chosen to be Traitors to the current government choosing to fight fiercely against the tool meant to spell their doom.

It's either that or live in slavery. I suppose one could argue that slavery is better than death. Others would say liberty is worth dying for. It depends on what you believe in I guess.


One thing I have to question in all this. Where do we get the idea that all of the EU is "New Republic biased"? Is this stated anywhere? Or is it based on the axiom that "history is written by the winners" and the New Republic (being the winners) must have skewed it to their side?

And if so, does this also apply to G-Level canon? Because Star Wars is supposed to be from the Journal of the Whills. The Whills (I thought) were some god-like beings (perhaps the fabled "Hyperspace Aliens" of fanon) who are observing the events, not the Rebels or the Empire. Is Lucas the "god" of the SW Universe telling it like it is, or is he merely a prophet channeling the information from some distant galaxy through the rose-colored glasses of the NR Apologists?

If it has been stated officially, fine, I'm just curious where this notion comes from...

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

You would also have to take into account that terrorist tactics don't really work too well on Totalitarian regimes with planet crushing(and other) capabilities. They'd be to hated by the ppl and ultimately be wiped out by the Empire.

They are Obviously freedom fighters.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The Empire is an undoubtably and objectively evil entity. One only needs to grasp the Empire's future as revealed by The Dark Empire Sourcebook, Dark Empire, and The Dark Side Sourcebook to see that.

Yeah, well, but by then it won't be the Empire anymore. It'd be the Emperor's Dark Side Theocracy.

That does not mean that they did not happen. You need countermanding evidence.

I did not say it did not happen. However, we are dealing with records made by slippery and clearly dishonest historians and translators here. After Alderaan and Endor, I don't know how much to trust them in things like mitigating circumstances.

For instance, I have no doubt that the so called Ghorman House Massacre, where Tarkin eventually sat on the some protesters in his warship happened. But how "peaceful" is the crowd? Does peaceful merely mean they didn't have blasters? They were admitted to be sitting at a spaceport and blocking all the landing pads, thus their actions clearly affect the public order and economy. They clearly weren't just seeking attention - that could have been done with the crowd somewhere other than right on the landing pads. How long had they been sitting there? How many eviction attempts by local forces had they resisted (one would reason that local forces will want to have the problem cleared up by themselves before a Central official shows up, if only to make themselves look good)? Did Tarkin at least warn them before he had his warship sit on them? If he did, then why didn't they nicely disperse? Don't they realize the game was up when the Federal or State military has to come to enforce order? Are they blazenly trying to defy Imperial authority? Since the purpose of a demonstration is to show the government that you really care about an issue, doesn't the appearance of an warship show that your message was received? Tarkin had a job to do too, you know. He has to get the taxes somehow.

But no, none of that matters. All we are supposed to think about is that Tarkin sat on them, and that's atrocious.

Which next to no planets will be - at all. Coruscant and other city planets were probably not much more than a week from starvation and collapse at any given time. They're the extreme lower limit, but until you get to outward colonies where major resource hubs for foodstuffs and shipping and manufacturing do not give a shit about to establish major routes, almost every world will be not self-sufficient. The Republic went through many wars, some of them large, and over 25,000 years. And it was never a strategic imperative before.

But the Rebels claim in their own history books that Alderaan only had two billion people on it. That's hardly an amount that they can't get self-sufficient on.

I sincerely doubt all of Alderaan was a Masada waiting to happen. Some turncoat would betray the Alderaanian Royal Family, and Palpatine would have his rebel world.

But after what? After half of the two billion starve to death? Is that really better than two billion very quick deaths? What happens after Palpatine gets his world. He will liquidate the government, obviously, but what about the People. If he beseiges the planet, gets it after hundreds of millions starve, liquidates the government, then has his ISB goons running around and eventually finding hundreds of millions of disloyal Imperial citizens to either execute or send to Kessel, is that really a superior ending?

Are you on crack? Are you really giving Lord Darth Sidious such credit as a altruist? Intent does matter in analyses of morality, and Palpatine could not give less of a shit about the Ewoks. And its not a noble sacrifice - he was not going to die.

He came pretty close to dying altogether. He had been IIRC swimming around in his soul through the Force ether for a year, and only barely managed to survive long enough to get into a Clone Body and start a multi-year process of recovery. I won't be sanguine about my chances of survival if the DS blew up with me on it under such circumstances.

I said pure Action Analysis. The Rebels have a notorious habit of ascribing negative attributes to their enemies at any chance, then writing said attributes into their history books.

The Empire is a police state. The U.S. maintains law and order, and despite some disturbing civil rights problems right now, it is by-and-large a free and pluralistic state. You create a false dilemma between free peoples and obedient peoples. I find that disturbing.

Missing the point. I don't deny the US is freer than the Empire. Just that for those who can't be naturally obedient or respectful within the boundaries allowed by a particular State and Party, they just, in the view of the Party, have to be kept in line, forcefully.

I'm afraid you're off on an assumption. The maximalist arguments deal with far more concrete things: raw figures of starships, industrial capacities, etc. It is not at all like this. And moreover, you're defending an interim system set up by and for the Sith übermensch with the express purpose of subsuming the entire galaxy into his Will and Ego. Individuality would quite literally cease to exist. I would say that the default assumption is these are evil assholes and one should provide their own concrete evidence that they are in fact, warm fuzzy fellows who dress up in pink and hand candy to children.

Nobody doubts the Emperor himself is a dolt and evil. We are talking about the many admins and various Moffs that he employs. Remember that even Grand Moff Tarkin or any of those who committed atrocities would hardly be pleased to hear they were maintaining Order for the eventual goal that everyone, including themselves, would be suckered into supplying life energy for the Emperor. I'm sure I said this before.

This assumes the means of the two bell curves (GE and NR) are the same. There's no evidence to suggest that.

They are drawn from the same basic population. Worse, since the bell curve has over 90-95% of the people somewhere in the middle, unless you contend the Empire only draws from the very lowest 10% of the Galactic Population (moralitywise), the amount of at least relatively neutral people would be at least equal to the amount of atrocious people.

Give me a break. You haven't a shred of evidence.

So you contend that the NR is a workable government.

By talking about fear of the slightest doubt, think about this. The NR feels that the destruction of Alderaan is irrevocably evil, no matter what the circumstances. If that's so, why can't they even admit the slightest things such as Alderaan had a shield? Surely admitting it won't have mattered, and would have done much to prove you are honest in writing your history books. Remember, you want to only cover up a few of your worst things. If you cover up too much, when a coverup is busted, people work harder at picking apart other coverups, and eventually they'd find something you really don't want them to find.

As for the alien thing, again, sentience is a very hard thing to define completely. Certainly some alien species did not fall into the non-sentient arena to be "indomesticated". Sullustans could even join the Fleet.

As for them not getting into high places. Really, after seeing what happens when a Bothan gains control of the government and Sullustans gets control of the military, then a real test is put on them. Not a hard one too ... we are talking about an enemy who would fit on a few planets if you cram them in a bit.

Incompetence never equals malice or evil. The New Republic is the former, and the Galactic Empire is undeniably the latter.

In terms of the suffering induced to the people, one can be as bad as the other. It takes a lot of incompetence to equal the suffering of evil, but the NR seems to have succeeded...

Are you delusional? He is the one who made the brainwashed Manchurian Candidate-style assassins. He is the one who aimed to socially destabilize the New Republic.

Look, Zsinj is the enemy of the New Republic. Political and social destabilization are valid tactics. I wouldn't be calling it very atrocious of him to have taken advantage of the New Republic's own weaknesses.

And furthermore, since High Human Culture has been set by decree from the privy council for the last twenty years until they took Coruscant, why would you blame the social problems of interspecies interaction on the New Republic? They have been in power for a few years at best.

You see, the New Republic top leadership are supposed to be people who are against High Human Culture. Well, that's fine. Honestly, it is better than the Empire (remember, no one is saying the Empire is a saint and paradise, especially for the non-humans, just that it is not as bad as the Rebels make it out to be).

Now, it is pretty easy to be equal when nothing is happening. So let's give it a little shake, shall we? We have a minority do a few terrorist attacks.

A pass is if you correctly conclude that it is the actions of a very small minority within that species.. You don't know precisely why they are doing it, but it is not the entire species against you. So you just get Intelligence to work out what's going on.

A fail is if you take any action against the minority as a whole, because that means you are associating the actions of a very few throughout the whole population.

One can almost understand if there was a great big referendum in the New Republic and they failed the test. Except it was apparently a Provisional Council decision, made by those very people who supposedly support equality. At that moment, they failed ... miserably, and no amount of blaming Zsinj would take away from how badly the leadership failed when placed with a test. Just as no amount of blaming the Vong would take away from the fact the NR's military and political structure were clearly in ill state when put to the test.

[Lord of the Farce]

The galaxy was once a great Republic of stars. The thousand-thousand member worlds were governed fairly and efficiently by the Senate, and cared for and protected by the Jedi Knights. Inevitably, as the number of worlds increased, the Republic found itself saddled with too massive a bureaucracy. It had grown too large, gotten too old, and corruption had set in.

The Old Republic was already well on the way to unravelling itself.

Senator Palpatine seized the moment. Through fraud, clever promises, and astute political maneuvering, Palpatine had himself elected head of the Senatorial Council - President of the Republic.

Palpatine only took advantage of what was already going on. His motives for doing so are attributed to "evil intents" and so-on-so-forth, but then the sourcebook "in-universe" was compiled by Major Arhul Hextrophon, Executive Secretary and Master Historian of the Alliance High Command.

Mothma and Organa had been friendly adversaries on the Senate floor for years. By the time Mothma had arrived as a freshman Senator from Chandrila, Organa was a veteran of many years in Republic politics. Mothma was a young firebrand, advocating rapid expansion and growth for the Republic, and putting forward visionary — some said “wildly impractical” — new plans for social change.

... "rapid expansion and growth"? It is just me, or does that sound like euphemism for "forceful annexation" to anybody else?

Despite their differences, Mothma and Organa worked closely together to keep Senator Palpatine from becoming President of the Republic. When it became obvious that they would fail, Mothma began to discuss Revolution. Organa was horrified.

When you also consider the previous paragraph, it does makes it sound a little like resentment, doesn't it?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Palpatine only took advantage of what was already going on. His motives for doing so are attributed to "evil intents" and so-on-so-forth, but then the sourcebook "in-universe" was compiled by Major Arhul Hextrophon, Executive Secretary and Master Historian of the Alliance High Command.

And the reason for the emasculating Ruusan Reformation? Another war caused by the Sith. A contributing factor in the Republic's necrosis? The Sith Order.

... "rapid expansion and growth"? It is just me, or does that sound like euphemism for "forceful annexation" to anybody else?

Good, she had brains in her youth before the lobotomy. One of the major reasons the Republic was falling apart was large swathes had become merely aligned and economically interdependent with the Republic, or simply members in name only. This is what allowed the decay to set in. Both the emasculation and abandonment of the Rim, and the blind eye toward the powerful conglomerates. The Republic needed to strengthen their government, delegate power, and reconsolidate the galaxy.

When you also consider the previous paragraph, it does makes it sound a little like resentment, doesn't it?

bel Iblis did leave because he thought Mothma would make herself Empress.

[Lord of the Farce]

Palpatine only took advantage of what was already going on. His motives for doing so are attributed to "evil intents" and so-on-so-forth, but then the sourcebook "in-universe" was compiled by Major Arhul Hextrophon, Executive Secretary and Master Historian of the Alliance High Command.

And the reason for the emasculating Ruusan Reformation? Another war caused by the Sith. A contributing factor in the Republic's necrosis? The Sith Order.

If the Alliance High Command could have pinned any of that down on the Sith - or more specifically, Palpatine - they probably would have done so, since they do seem to be quite happy to attribute evil to anything-and-everything else concerning the Empire. But even they seem to see the fall of the Old Republic as inevitable, and sooner rather than later.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I was just going to address the topic before somebody added "Well the New Republic is evil because they killed the YV! But the Empire woulda stopped 'em!" etc.

I think even Han Solo, who made a crack about the Emperor's superweapon strategy in Destiny's Way, would have agreed the Empire would have dealt with the YV invasion better. That's probably why he made the crack in the first place, to divert from Dorja's real point. Even a "Nostril of Palpatine" would at least, after all, have been a decisive action towards the threat.

Sure. Sort of like the Old Republic. And isn't the logic that the Empire would have slaughtered the YV as well? Only difference being they would have done it with fewer casualties on their own side (that is, until they got back to terrorizing their own citizens).

Well, basically, the YV, with their attitude, there was basically nothing to do but exterminate them and render the few survivors as Wookiee style slaves.

The New Republic was based on the old was it not? (Including necessary retcons for Lucas's prequels of course). The reason the Republic fell to the Empire was due to Palpatine's meddling. And while one could argue that like Hitler "the time was right for a strong leader to step in" there are only two Sith Lords out there capable of doing what Palpatine did.

Actually, the Republic was already kind of decaying. Palpatine only gave it a push so he can instate his Empire.

As for the New Republic, it was based on the Old, but with the caliber of people it hires and the changes, and the apparently even more loose discipline, it wasn't very workable to begin with.

True. However, if they are planet locked, they can't exactly influence Galactic affairs can they? Well, I suppose you'd need to block their off world communication, or they could broadcast anti-government slogans to the rest of the galaxy or something. But if you stop them from sending out ships, that means no trade, nobody comes or goes without you having a say in it.

They can transfer their substantial credit accounts to the Rebellion. That would allow them to buy up more black-market weapons. Besides, the symbolic value is bad enough.

An interesting way to look at it, though the novelization disagrees, iirc.

Just a interesting study in what one can think of events when you get rid for a second of the Rebel-imposed stuff that the Empire must be evil.

But when the terror itself insights the rebellion, then it's a foolish action. Terror itself ensures that even the law-abiding aren't safe, making obeying the law in the hopes of escaping punishment futile.

There are obviously a few malcontents, especially in the Outer Rim.

It's either that or live in slavery. I suppose one could argue that slavery is better than death. Others would say liberty is worth dying for. It depends on what you believe in I guess.

Not quite in slavery for the humans, definitely. It isn't that bad.

One thing I have to question in all this. Where do we get the idea that all of the EU is "New Republic biased"? Is this stated anywhere? Or is it based on the axiom that "history is written by the winners" and the New Republic (being the winners) must have skewed it to their side?

Let's start with that axiom. It'd be too much to expect that they would be completely fair, would it?

Because they mostly control the sources, finding bias would be difficult (if your only way of knowing the ST-SW debate is from Graham Kennedy and RSA, it would be hard for you to find their biases). However, we could see the parts that leaked out, the real footage they cannot deny just by re-writing the history book.

Then we can see how they belittle the Empire. Notice how every mistake seems to be an underestimate. It takes 5 minutes (or was it 15 ) just to set up a machine-gun. When there is a sizing error, it generally tends towards the smaller.

We can also read their ridiculous claims, like how the Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire. Pellaeon must have ingested a massive quantity of NR propaganda and is incapable of self-analysis, since he clearly saw the Death Star II next to the Executor if he had participated. A recurring theme is how the Empire increases its military spending so much that everyone is really suffering. When you actually do the calcs using their force levels, you realize they didn't spend that much. For example, the most general claim they make is that the Empire made 25000 Imperial Star Destroyers. and IIRC they claim the population is 14 quadrillion. So we are talking about 0.007 credits over about 20 years per capita of Imperial rule to build those things. You can continue to add, but in the end, it won't exactly be a killer, especially when you consider that KDY's 50 quadrillion entry fee to the CSA would have easily bought over 100,000 Executors. Really, one wonders how hard they are really being taxed and how militarized the Empire really is in comparison to going full boil.

And if so, does this also apply to G-Level canon? Because Star Wars is supposed to be from the Journal of the Whills. The Whills (I thought) were some god-like beings (perhaps the fabled "Hyperspace Aliens" of fanon) who are observing the events, not the Rebels or the Empire. Is Lucas the "god" of the SW Universe telling it like it is, or is he merely a prophet channeling the information from some distant galaxy through the rose-colored glasses of the NR Apologists?

The canon is better, in that it is presumed to be real footage obtained somehow. Still, it is Lucas picking out the about 9 hours we are shown, and picking the scenes and doing the translation for the dialogue allows for a chance for bias. We already know he didn't show Endor dying from the Rebels blowing up the DS, and we already know he shied from the Ewok casualties in the film.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

What I was more shocked at in that incident was, apparently, no one bothered to comns Coruscant or any other fleet HQ to seek orders, until they decided to revolt against Feylya orders. That suggests that the level of command cohesion in the Republic forces were abysmal. Something that can be attributed to the "newness" of the military, but one that will ultimately be reflected in the downfall of Coruscant.

I saw that to, but chose to abscribe it to a equipment limitation. Perhaps the poorly equipped NR forces simply didn't install a hyperwave receiver in the Quenfis. Borsk Feylya would have presumably chosen a vessel where such a convenient out won't be available - one that's limited to subspace comms only. They are already dumb enough in that scene.

While there is no doubt some friction between Imps and Rebs, it should still have been a great improvement than if all the Imps resigned and the Rebs are forced to take over the unfamiliar task of bureaucracy using their limited manpower pool.

And I have no trouble believing Ackbar shows up for important things like a new fighter for his military and all that. But a convoy is very routine. There are probably hundreds or thousands if not more of big and small convoys sending supplies in the frontier sectors at any one time.

It sounded a lot like Ackbar would have been involved in setting the specific escort for this team. Otherwise, assuming Ackbar merely set strategy, he would have had the warplan use something more appropriate (probably the X-Wing) and all his subordinates have to do is follow it in his absence. Instead, it sounds almost like he had no plan at all, so whoever's handling his job just said "Ahh ... A-Wings!"

[Rogue 9]

Did Tarkin at least warn them before he had his warship sit on them? If he did, then why didn't they nicely disperse? Don't they realize the game was up when the Federal or State military has to come to enforce order? Are they blazenly trying to defy Imperial authority? Since the purpose of a demonstration is to show the government that you really care about an issue, doesn't the appearance of an warship show that your message was received? Tarkin had a job to do too, you know. He has to get the taxes somehow.

But no, none of that matters. All we are supposed to think about is that Tarkin sat on them, and that's atrocious.

No, Tarkin just squashed the protesters, and yes, it was atrocious. The event is entirely analogous to Tiananmen Square, and (dropping SoD for a moment) given the time it was written, I would imagine that the event was closely modeled on the Tiananmen massacre.

[Kurgan]

Couple of things for you, Kazuaki Shimazaki:

They can transfer their substantial credit accounts to the Rebellion. That would allow them to buy up more black-market weapons. Besides, the symbolic value is bad enough.

If off-world communication is disrupted (not impossible for the Empire is it? a blockade of ships with heavy jamming and devices to eaves drop on transmission), how can they transfer the funds? And if they do buy weapons, how will the weapons delivery get through the blockade?

I forgot that the Outer Rim (Tatooine included?) isn't part of the Empire. So the Empire terrorizes neighboring territories when it suites them as well as their own citizens (Alderaan).

Not quite in slavery for the humans, definitely. It isn't that bad.

Their lives are forfeit at the Emperor's (or his governors's) whim and citizens have no representation (Senate Council permanently dissolved). That's tyranny. Living in fear is a philosophical component of slavery. I assume you refer to the anti-alien bias of the Empire itself (including slavery of races like the Mon Calamari and Wookiees), but you've already heard about the supposed "Dark Side Energy Sucking Theocracy" thing from Dark Empire, etc.

Let's start with that axiom. It'd be too much to expect that they would be completely fair, would it?

Should we then naturally assume that the Empire was good and the Rebellion was evil? I don't mean to draw in a strawman here, but this seems to be the position that the Imperial apologists are pulling. Either that or that they were "lesser of two evils" because the Rebels were a selfish minority, the Empire was beneficial, the Republic was corrupt and worthless, and finally all of Star Wars history is pro-Rebel/Anti-Imperial propaganda.

For me it's enough that Lucas, the creator and originator of the story, whom is still alive and commenting on his work and "artistic vision" expresses the view that he intended the Empire as evil and the Rebels as the "good guys." But maybe that doesn't fit into SOD and so isn't relevant to the discussion. I just brought it up as one more straw on the pile...

My primary argument is from G-level canon, incidentally.

[consequences]

I prefer to think of the Empire as the Better Evil actually. I can forgive, or at least undestand the reasoning behind, cruelty that has a purpose. Purposeless incompetence is a different story, especially when it leads to more general suffering than planned cruelty ever achieved. I'm not Anti-Evil, I'm Anti-Idiot.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

If off-world communication is disrupted (not impossible for the Empire is it? a blockade of ships with heavy jamming and devices to eaves drop on transmission), how can they transfer the funds? And if they do buy weapons, how will the weapons delivery get through the blockade?

1) If they don't blockade the whole planet fast enough, it won't take very long for the Alderaanians to do a few keypresses.
2) The weapons aren't for the Alderaanians. It is for those Rebels out there. Think about a quadrillion credit donation, and what it could do.

I forgot that the Outer Rim (Tatooine included?) isn't part of the Empire. So the Empire terrorizes neighboring territories when it suites them as well as their own citizens (Alderaan).

Where does it say that the Outer Rim ain't part of the Empire. They are independent minded, but they are in the Empire enough that Biggs could go to their Academy, and Tarkin has it assigned to him as an Oversector.

Their lives are forfeit at the Emperor's (or his governors's) whim and citizens have no representation (Senate Council permanently dissolved). That's tyranny. Living in fear is a philosophical component of slavery. I assume you refer to the anti-alien bias of the Empire itself (including slavery of races like the Mon Calamari and Wookiees), but you've already heard about the supposed "Dark Side Energy Sucking Theocracy" thing from Dark Empire, etc.

Well, that's later, and by then, it won't be the Empire anymore. And this is hardly the first time people were ruled under a dictatorship. In fact, all too many countries were ruled by Kings and Emperors until relatively recently, and Kings and Nobles pretty much had power to do what they wish with the average citizenry, but that doesn't quite mean they were slaves.

Should we then naturally assume that the Empire was good and the Rebellion was evil? I don't mean to draw in a strawman here, but this seems to be the position that the Imperial apologists are pulling. Either that or that they were "lesser of two evils" because the Rebels were a selfish minority, the Empire was beneficial, the Republic was corrupt and worthless, and finally all of Star Wars history is pro-Rebel/Anti-Imperial propaganda.

Don't strawman. Even an apologist knows that it is impossible to get past such facts as the Empire is quite harsh. It is just that we don't lose sight of who's writing the history or their "wonderful" record of telling the exact truth. It is just that we can still remember the advantages of the Empire.

And Perhaps if the New Republic was actually worth more than the piece of shit it basically has been, there would have been fewer Imperial apologists. Honestly, I don't know how Lucas approved that if he really wants to say the Empire was bad bad bad and the Republic was good good good ...

[Kurgan]

Okay, so we come down to the Empire being intentionally evil (for the sake of power), whereas the OR, Rebellion and NR are simply incompetent.

As to the tyrannical rulership of earth Monarchs, the defacto lack of freedom between slaves and serfs is simply a matter of degree.

Palpatine caused the shit, so the fact that the Republic tried to fix it, without resorting to the same cruelty, doesn't make them evil.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Okay, so we come down to the Empire being intentionally evil (for the sake of power), whereas the OR, Rebellion and NR are simply incompetent.

The Empire is harsh to maintain order. The Emperor is an evil dolt who is going to suck everyone's energy up. The Rebellion can only be so incompetent in fighting against the Empire, but it obviously hadn't given much thought to what they are supposed to do after they beat the Empire. The NR ... need I say more...

As to the tyrannical rulership of earth Monarchs, the defacto lack of freedom between slaves and serfs is simply a matter of degree.

What about merchants, the guys that are ... what do you call them, tenant farmers or what? Those farmers that ain't serfs, I remember there were some of those in feudalism. Those are relatively free.

Palpatine caused the shit, so the fact that the Republic tried to fix it, without resorting to the same cruelty, doesn't make them evil.

Palpatine got into power. The Empire under him created the New Order. The Rebellion stupidly tried to fix it without having a decent plan (Rule #1 of Revolutions, see above). That does not necessarily make them evil, but it does make them irresponsible, and while it takes a lot of incompetence to equal the pain caused by intentional harshness, the New Republic had somehow succeeded, which tells us how little they thought about this entire matter. Honestly, it is stunning they could foul up so badly.

[Kurgan]

We could always chalk that last part up to bad writing. ; )

Palpatine didn't forsee his Empire falling so quickly to a rag-tag band of rebels either. According to the EU, he also forgot (bad writing again?) to use most of his super weapons and uber soldiers until it was too late.