Purple emperor guys

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-01 12:43pm

Stofsk wrote:
Mange the Swede wrote:IP, no offense, but that WEG crap goes against established canon. I doubt that the Emperor trained any "Dark Jedi".
What are you talking about "going against established canon"? I see no contradiction.

Well, I see it. Dig deeper.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-01 03:42pm

Mange the Swede wrote:Well, I see it. Dig deeper.

Don't be a jackass. Its not my job to divine your arguments out of your skull. If you do not state it, that's as good as a concession in my opinion.

And it if is that idiotic Rule of Two nitpick, there's no reason the Rule had to exist in perpetuity, and even so, Palpatine never violated it. There were only two Sith: himself and Vader.

Sean Howard · Post by **Sean Howard** » 2004-10-01 03:54pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote: There were only two Sith: himself and Vader.

I never knew of this two Sith thing until recently. It seems a little weird, and is certainly very limiting to the Dark Side.

For a long time I assumed that the Emperor's Advisors were like Emperors-in-training so to speak. Not exactly Jedi or Sith, just bad dudes with gnarly powers.

But someone told me it was impossible because of the Rule of Two thing, that any Dark Side adept is, by definition, a Sith, so only 2 can exist at any time.

Now I get the impression that Sith are a very specific type of Dark Side follower, and there could be other forms of Dark Siders that independently discovered their powers.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-10-01 05:08pm

Hmmm, the presence of Grievous in ROTS would seem to go against the all-mighty rule of two. Unless he isn´t labeled a "Sith Lord" but more of a "Force-Ally" or "Dark Side Adept", like the advisors.

I think the whole "only two Sith" applies only to Sith Lords, everybody else get the Adept or Rogue-label, or Lord-in-waiting. I think that´s what Grievous could be described as....

Sorry for the slight derail... ^^;;

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-01 05:14pm

There were all kinds of fallen and Dark Jedi between the Great Sith War and the Battle of Naboo that were not Sith.

The Sith are an order with a specific set of knowledge, techniques, styles, and rituals.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-10-01 05:19pm

VT-16 wrote:Hmmm, the presence of Grievous in ROTS would seem to go against the all-mighty rule of two. Unless he isn´t labeled a "Sith Lord" but more of a "Force-Ally" or "Dark Side Adept", like the advisors.

I think the whole "only two Sith" applies only to Sith Lords, everybody else get the Adept or Rogue-label, or Lord-in-waiting. I think that´s what Grievous could be described as....

Sorry for the slight derail... ^^;;

Is Grievous even dark jedi or can he fight jedi because of the droid body.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-10-01 05:55pm

Lucas mentioned him being Sidious´henchman in the same breath as Maul, Dooku and Vader. I´d say that puts him in the Force-category. But nothing´s set in stone yet.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-10-01 11:55pm

Before i get jumped on. Sate Pestage jumps at me by being around Palpatine in one of the Prequel EU books. I think it was cloak of Deception but i remember Palpatine tried to get him into a high office in the Republic Senate to start his plan. Im pretty sure it failed and thats why Palpatine nominated Mas Ameeda as Vice Chancelor and we all know that he is the vice for both Valorum and Palpatine. But Sate Pestage was around Palpatine for pretty much his entire political carreer.

I know some one out there knows what im talking about

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2004-10-02 12:29am

Of all the members of the Galactic Emperor's Inner Circle, the Grand Vizier is indeed by far the longest serving, having been the Galactic Emperor's alter ego from the very beginning of his political career, and continuing as his first deputy and personal lieutenant in all matters as late as the events of Dark Empire.

PUBLIUS

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-02 04:35am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Mange the Swede wrote:Well, I see it. Dig deeper.
Don't be a jackass. Its not my job to divine your arguments out of your skull. If you do not state it, that's as good as a concession in my opinion.

And it if is that idiotic Rule of Two nitpick, there's no reason the Rule had to exist in perpetuity, and even so, Palpatine never violated it. There were only two Sith: himself and Vader.

I'm sorry, IP, I had no time to dwell on the issue yesterday. I had planned to return to answer, but ran out of time.
Anyway, it has nothing to do with the Rule of two, even though I think the Sith must adhere to it even though they've gotten their revenge. According to the latest Insider (or Pablo more specifically who related GL's backstory about the Sith), the Sith took control of the galaxy for a period of a thousand years, but lost against the Jedi because of the infighting and all but one Sith were destroyed. It wouldn't be a wise decision to go over that again, would it?

To answer the question at hand, as I said, it hasn't much to do with the Rule of two (even though I felt compelled to comment on it above) but rather the balance of the Force. As I understand it from higher-order canon, the Force is in balance when it's only used by the Jedi, or rather when it's not used by Dark Side users. If noone uses the Force out of hatred, anger etc. there is no Dark Side. If a Dark Side user uses the Force, the Dark Side comes into existence. Thus, when Vader/Anakin destroyed the Emperor in ROTJ, then the Dark Side ceased to exist as there were no more Dark Side users*. The opposite, that the Dark Side grew and made it impossible for the Jedi to use some of their abilities, was explicitly mentioned in AOTC. The more purposes a Dark Side user uses the Force for, less is possible for the Jedi to use. When the Dark Side users has been destroyed, the balance is restored. GL has specifically mentioned that the Force came into balance and the prophecy was fulfilled when Vader/Anakin killed the Emperor. That is why I don't believe that Palpatine trained or condoned any Dark Jedi. If Palpatine had done so, there is also the possibility that they would betray him together. Of course, they could have had some training in the Force and they could have been destroyed, but I don't think so.

* This concept wasn't fully materialized until the PT came into existence, thus the EU had time to create Dark Side users such as Joruus C'Baoth. Their existence have to be explained, but a possibility is that there ambitions weren't as high as the Sith's and therefore didn't use the Force to the same extent. Or perhaps the Sith had some techniques, only known by them, to make the Dark Side grow even larger, so that the Force never really was out of balance with C'Baoth and the others, but that is a paradox.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-02 09:41am

The Prophecy was fulfilled because the Sith - and specifically the power of the Emperor Palpatine, was the source of the Dark Side's transcendance. With Palpatine's death at Endor, his power over the galaxy was broken, and he would never again reclaim his power over it.

I find it quite stupid that while the Imperial advisors aboard Death Star II cannot be Dark Side Adepts, George Lucas personally altered the plot of and loved Dark Empire, even going so far to give a copy as a Christmas gift to his staff one year. Dark Empire, of course, features the resurrected Emperor Palpatine.

If this contradicted his vision, and he already felt the need to edit its premises, why not force them to do more? And why would he like it so much. If Palpatine's return does not unbalance the Force and does not contradict his vision, I doubt a handful of courtiers with Dark Side talent will either.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-02 10:15am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

The Prophecy was fulfilled because the Sith - and specifically the power of the Emperor Palpatine, was the source of the Dark Side's transcendance. With Palpatine's death at Endor, his power over the galaxy was broken, and he would never again reclaim his power over it.

I find it quite stupid that while the Imperial advisors aboard Death Star II cannot be Dark Side Adepts, George Lucas personally altered the plot of and loved Dark Empire, even going so far to give a copy as a Christmas gift to his staff one year. Dark Empire, of course, features the resurrected Emperor Palpatine.

If this contradicted his vision, and he already felt the need to edit its premises, why not force them to do more? And why would he like it so much. If Palpatine's return does not unbalance the Force and does not contradict his vision, I doubt a handful of courtiers with Dark Side talent will either.

[Darkstar]This just proves that the EU is an alternate universe and therefore non-canon. Concession accepted.[/Darkstar]

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-10-02 10:49am

I find it quite stupid that while the Imperial advisors aboard Death Star II cannot be Dark Side Adepts, George Lucas personally altered the plot of and loved Dark Empire, even going so far to give a copy as a Christmas gift to his staff one year.

When you say Dark Empire, do you mean DE I or the whole trilogy? And what did Lucas change, plot-wise?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-02 03:20pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

The Prophecy was fulfilled because the Sith - and specifically the power of the Emperor Palpatine, was the source of the Dark Side's transcendance. With Palpatine's death at Endor, his power over the galaxy was broken, and he would never again reclaim his power over it.

I find it quite stupid that while the Imperial advisors aboard Death Star II cannot be Dark Side Adepts, George Lucas personally altered the plot of and loved Dark Empire, even going so far to give a copy as a Christmas gift to his staff one year. Dark Empire, of course, features the resurrected Emperor Palpatine.

If this contradicted his vision, and he already felt the need to edit its premises, why not force them to do more? And why would he like it so much. If Palpatine's return does not unbalance the Force and does not contradict his vision, I doubt a handful of courtiers with Dark Side talent will either.

To be completly honest, I totally forgot about Dark Empire. Dark Empire was put on the market at a time when interest in Star Wars was very low. According to an interview in the e-book edition of Vector Prime, George Lucas is involved in every EU project, so it's no surprise that he was involved in the DE project, although that came into existence in a different time. Much of the older EU can't be viewed in the same light now that the PT has come into existence, and we don't really know what GL liked about DE, do we? It could have been just the artwork, or the fact that it was the first publication of this kind? Did GL know that he really would be able to do the PT at that point of time? I have a hard time believing that the resurrected Palpatine truly is part of GL's vision, but since DE is after all is part of continuity, it must somehow be fitted.

It's clear to me, IP, that our understanding of the Force concept is differing, a concept which has been expanded now that we have the PT. The early EU lacks much now because of that, it's as easy as that.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2004-10-02 04:25pm

As I understand it from higher-order canon, the Force is in balance when it's only used by the Jedi, or rather when it's not used by Dark Side users. If noone uses the Force out of hatred, anger etc. there is no Dark Side.

Then how do you explain the existence of the cave on Dagobah? There was no one using the dark side of the Force in the cave, and yet nevertheless it was strong in the dark side. This is impossible in your view of the relationship between the light side and the dark side. Do keep in mind that it is only your view, and not the evidence of the films themselves. The films do not establish this relationship between the light side and the dark side.

If a Dark Side user uses the Force, the Dark Side comes into existence. Thus, when Vader/Anakin destroyed the Emperor in ROTJ, then the Dark Side ceased to exist as there were no more Dark Side users*.

This is a peculiar contention, sir. The dark side is not a separate phenomenon from the light side; as Darth Sidious notes in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, "light side" and "dark side" are philosophical distinctions, not integral parts of the Force itself. So long as the Force exists, the dark side exists by virtue of the fact that it is part of the Force.

One cannot claim that the balance of the Force is achieved by something so simplistic as killing the users of the dark side. Seeing that any user of the Force can become a dark side practitioner at any moment whatever, the idea is plainly nonsensical. In order to achieve a permanent balance of the Force, it would be necessary to terminate every user of the Force. As this clearly did not happen, and as Luke Skywalker did use the dark side in Return of the Jedi, the Force was not balanced by the death of Lord Vader and the Galactic Emperor if your standard is applied.

That is why I don't believe that Palpatine trained or condoned any Dark Jedi. If Palpatine had done so, there is also the possibility that they would betray him together. Of course, they could have had some training in the Force and they could have been destroyed, but I don't think so.

Dear sir, your personal interpretation of the balance of the Force – and such is what it is, and no more – does not constitute evidence of any kind. The Galactic Emperor did train and condone dark Jedi, and this is known quite surely based on the evidence of the authentic history of Star Wars as told by the Expanded Universe. You are rejecting that evidence on the basis that it cannot coexist with your interpretation of an undefined aspect of the films. However, the Expanded Universe need conform only to the evidence of the films, not to your interpretation of the films, and your objection is therefore insubstantial.

PUBLIUS

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-02 05:17pm

Publius wrote:
As I understand it from higher-order canon, the Force is in balance when it's only used by the Jedi, or rather when it's not used by Dark Side users. If noone uses the Force out of hatred, anger etc. there is no Dark Side.
Then how do you explain the existence of the cave on Dagobah? There was no one using the dark side of the Force in the cave, and yet nevertheless it was strong in the dark side. This is impossible in your view of the relationship between the light side and the dark side. Do keep in mind that it is only your view, and not the evidence of the films themselves. The films do not establish this relationship between the light side and the dark side.

There is an EU explanation to that from the offical SW site:

Another tale of Yoda's past involves stopping a swath of destruction cut by Dark Jedi from Bpfassh. One of these dark siders had gotten as far as Dagobah, were Yoda bested him in direct confrontation. The Bpfasshi Jedi died, his dark Force absorbing into and twisting a nearby tree -- forming a dark side nexus. It is believed that Yoda chose Dagobah as his hiding place due to the dark side energies emanating from the tree. From a distance, Force-users like the Emperor would not detect Yoda since the master's bright light side presence would be canceled by the Bpfasshi dark side presence.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2004-10-02 07:12pm

JME2, the Expanded Universe's explanation for the cave is well-known, but irrelevant to the point at hand. Mange the Swede contends that the dark side exists only when actively used by a Force-sensitive individual, and that it has no existence outside direct use. According to such a view, if every dark side user fell asleep at the same time, the dark side would spontaneously cease to exist until one of them awoke. As such, his theory is incompetent to explain the canonical phenomenon of the cave being strong in the dark side of the Force.

PUBLIUS

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-02 08:16pm

Publius wrote:JME2, the Expanded Universe's explanation for the cave is well-known, but irrelevant to the point at hand. Mange the Swede contends that the dark side exists only when actively used by a Force-sensitive individual, and that it has no existence outside direct use. According to such a view, if every dark side user fell asleep at the same time, the dark side would spontaneously cease to exist until one of them awoke. As such, his theory is incompetent to explain the canonical phenomenon of the cave being strong in the dark side of the Force.

PUBLIUS

I just thought to being it up for clarification, that's all. Sorry to stray from the main topic at hand.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-03 04:11am

Publius, you're absolutely right. That is my view, but not only myview.

Publius wrote:
As I understand it from higher-order canon, the Force is in balance when it's only used by the Jedi, or rather when it's not used by Dark Side users. If noone uses the Force out of hatred, anger etc. there is no Dark Side.

Then how do you explain the existence of the cave on Dagobah? There was no one using the dark side of the Force in the cave, and yet nevertheless it was strong in the dark side.
Let's turn to the ESB DVD commentary to hear what George Lucas says about the cave... Ok, so Luke created the situation in his mind by bringing his weapon into the cave (notice that he didn't say the cave created the situation). So, it seems as if Yoda could simply have told Luke that the cave was "a domain of evil" to make Luke feel uneasy. This hypothesis does have one shortcoming it doesn't explain the "bad vibes" Lucas speaks about.

This is impossible in your view of the relationship between the light side and the dark side. Do keep in mind that it is only your view, and not the evidence of the films themselves. The films do not establish this relationship between the light side and the dark side.
There are dozens of various explanations that concerns the Force among the fans. It's difficult to say which is correct, since we haven't got a clear answer. I found an entry submitted by someone on Wikipedia that is similar to what I've been able to gather from message boards etc. Keep in mind that it was the PT that introduced the notion about balance to the Force. This indicates that there is more to the concept of the Force. Remember that GL has stated numerous times that Vader/Anakin brought balance to the Force by killing the Emperor and as he puts it on the Episode II preview on the 2000 edition SE VHS "get rids of evil in the Universe". It rhymes bad with the notion that the Emperor had left several Dark Jedi roaming the Galaxy, doesn't it? Or as I said, perhaps they were trained as Dark Jedi but were killed when DSII exploded? I don't think that this contradicts the DE.

If a Dark Side user uses the Force, the Dark Side comes into existence. Thus, when Vader/Anakin destroyed the Emperor in ROTJ, then the Dark Side ceased to exist as there were no more Dark Side users*.

This is a peculiar contention, sir. The dark side is not a separate phenomenon from the light side; as Darth Sidious notes in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, "light side" and "dark side" are philosophical distinctions, not integral parts of the Force itself. So long as the Force exists, the dark side exists by virtue of the fact that it is part of the Force.

One cannot claim that the balance of the Force is achieved by something so simplistic as killing the users of the dark side. Seeing that any user of the Force can become a dark side practitioner at any moment whatever, the idea is plainly nonsensical. In order to achieve a permanent balance of the Force, it would be necessary to terminate every user of the Force. As this clearly did not happen, and as Luke Skywalker did use the dark side in Return of the Jedi, the Force was not balanced by the death of Lord Vader and the Galactic Emperor if your standard is applied.
You're right that it seems simplistic, but as long as anyone don't use the Dark Side, it isn't very strong. If someone uses the Dark Side repeatedly, it grows. Yoda didn't tell Luke the truth in ESB when he told him that the Dark Side wasn't stronger, because at that point it was. In AOTC we learn that the Jedis' ability to use the Force has diminished. That is something we wasn't aware of before. The explanation is that the Dark Side has grown to become more powerful than the Light side. Remember, there are only two Siths.

That is why I don't believe that Palpatine trained or condoned any Dark Jedi. If Palpatine had done so, there is also the possibility that they would betray him together. Of course, they could have had some training in the Force and they could have been destroyed, but I don't think so.

Dear sir, your personal interpretation of the balance of the Force – and such is what it is, and no more – does not constitute evidence of any kind. The Galactic Emperor did train and condone dark Jedi, and this is known quite surely based on the evidence of the authentic history of Star Wars as told by the Expanded Universe. You are rejecting that evidence on the basis that it cannot coexist with your interpretation of an undefined aspect of the films. However, the Expanded Universe need conform only to the evidence of the films, not to your interpretation of the films, and your objection is therefore insubstantial.

PUBLIUS

As I said, it's not only my personal interpretation. I have no quarrel that the EU is part of canon, only that some parts of the older EU has been invalidated now by the new evidence and concepts introduced in the PT where we have gained more understanding about the concept of the Force. I think that those creepy guys are simply the Emperor's advisors, without any schooling in the Force. I hope this matter will be clarified.

I'm sorry if I screw up the quotes.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2004-10-03 04:05pm

Mange the Swede wrote:Let's turn to the ESB DVD commentary to hear what George Lucas says about the cave... Ok, so Luke created the situation in his mind by bringing his weapon into the cave (notice that he didn't say the cave created the situation). So, it seems as if Yoda could simply have told Luke that the cave was "a domain of evil" to make Luke feel uneasy. This hypothesis does have one shortcoming it doesn't explain the "bad vibes" Lucas speaks about.

Dear sir, this is ignoratio elenchi. The fact that CDR Skywalker created the phantasmagoria he encountered in the cave by bringing his lightsaber and his own fears regarding his susceptibility to the dark side into the cave has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the cave was a dark side nexus before he entered it. By his mere proximity to the cave, CDR Skywalker was able to sense its aura of darkness, before he entered it and triggered his hallucination; this is impossible according to your theory of the Force. Your theory cannot account for the independent existence of dark side nexus without any conscious or wilful use of the dark side.

Mange the Swede wrote: Keep in mind that it was the PT that introduced the notion about balance to the Force. This indicates that there is more to the concept of the Force.Remember that GL has stated numerous times that Vader/Anakin brought balance to the Force by killing the Emperor and as he puts it on the Episode II preview on the 2000 edition SE VHS "get rids of evil in the Universe". It rhymes bad with the notion that the Emperor had left several Dark Jedi roaming the Galaxy, doesn't it? Or as I said, perhaps they were trained as Dark Jedi but were killed when DSII exploded? I don't think that this contradicts the DE.

It is incontestible that the balance of the Force was achieved by the Galactic Emperor's death at the Battle of Endor. It is your opinion that this balance requires the complete eradication of all dark side users; furthermore, this opinion disregards the fact that CDR Skywalker himself used the dark side during the duel with Lord Vader, and the dark side therefore still exists even beyond the deaths of the Sith Lords. There is no contradiction between the existence of other dark Jedi and dark side adepts and the balance of the Force being achieved by the Galactic Emperor's death at the Battle of Endor, except in the unnecessarily narrow interpretation you profess.

Mange the Swede wrote:You're right that it seems simplistic, but as long as anyone don't use the Dark Side, it isn't very strong. If someone uses the Dark Side repeatedly, it grows. Yoda didn't tell Luke the truth in ESB when he told him that the Dark Side wasn't stronger, because at that point it was. In AOTC we learn that the Jedis' ability to use the Force has diminished. That is something we wasn't aware of before. The explanation is that the Dark Side has grown to become more powerful than the Light side. Remember, there are only two Siths.

Dear sir, you have changed your position. At first, you claimed that the dark side existed only when actively used by dark side users. Now you claim that the dark side can exist independently, but in a naturally weak state. These two positions are incompatible; which do you profess? Can the dark side exist independently of dark side users, or can it not?

Notice that even in the Prequel Era there are still other dark side users aside from the Sith Lords. The Sith's particular role in the disruption of the balance of the Force does not render the existence of other dark side practitioners impossible. It is quite clear from the totality of the evidence that it is the Sith especially, and not the dark side generally, that are responsible for the unbalance in the Force.

PUBLIUS

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-03 05:44pm

Interesting discussion, Publius!

Publius wrote:
Mange the Swede wrote:Let's turn to the ESB DVD commentary to hear what George Lucas says about the cave... Ok, so Luke created the situation in his mind by bringing his weapon into the cave (notice that he didn't say the cave created the situation). So, it seems as if Yoda could simply have told Luke that the cave was "a domain of evil" to make Luke feel uneasy. This hypothesis does have one shortcoming it doesn't explain the "bad vibes" Lucas speaks about.

Dear sir, this is ignoratio elenchi. The fact that CDR Skywalker created the phantasmagoria he encountered in the cave by bringing his lightsaber and his own fears regarding his susceptibility to the dark side into the cave has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the cave was a dark side nexus before he entered it. By his mere proximity to the cave, CDR Skywalker was able to sense its aura of darkness, before he entered it and triggered his hallucination; this is impossible according to your theory of the Force. Your theory cannot account for the independent existence of dark side nexus without any conscious or wilful use of the dark side.
I agree and concede, the cave is some sort of nexus, but the question is how the cave (and other nexuses, if there are any) affects the balance of the Force. This is totally speculative of course, but perhaps the nexuses lost whatever negative power they had after the Force was brought back into balance. In the Zahn-trilogy, Luke again enters the cave, and has a vision about a possible past, that is interesting.

Mange the Swede wrote: Keep in mind that it was the PT that introduced the notion about balance to the Force. This indicates that there is more to the concept of the Force.Remember that GL has stated numerous times that Vader/Anakin brought balance to the Force by killing the Emperor and as he puts it on the Episode II preview on the 2000 edition SE VHS "get rids of evil in the Universe". It rhymes bad with the notion that the Emperor had left several Dark Jedi roaming the Galaxy, doesn't it? Or as I said, perhaps they were trained as Dark Jedi but were killed when DSII exploded? I don't think that this contradicts the DE.

It is incontestible that the balance of the Force was achieved by the Galactic Emperor's death at the Battle of Endor. It is your opinion that this balance requires the complete eradication of all dark side users; furthermore, this opinion disregards the fact that CDR Skywalker himself used the dark side during the duel with Lord Vader, and the dark side therefore still exists even beyond the deaths of the Sith Lords. There is no contradiction between the existence of other dark Jedi and dark side adepts and the balance of the Force being achieved by the Galactic Emperor's death at the Battle of Endor, except in the unnecessarily narrow interpretation you profess.
Complete eradication is perhaps an overstatement and it wasn't what I meant. Let me put it this way, if one uses the Dark Side it will grow stronger. Since the Jedi were the only Force users known "in a millennia" [or rather millennium] (since the Jedi thought the Sith had been destroyed), the Sith must have been very low key in their use of the Force and didn't took any risks of being detected until it was too late for the Jedi to act. I don't know if any of the recent EU or WEG materials deals with how the Sith did that exactly. Yoda warned Luke that "once you start down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny", but yes, Luke Skywalker did use the Dark Side of the Force at Jabbas's palace and (it's also possible that Obi-Wan also did that briefly during his fight with Lord Maul in TPM) again in the Emperor's throne room. But after having struck his father down, he realized in which direction he was going if he had continued down that path. Thus, after Vader/Anakin killed the Emperor, there were no more active Dark Side users (at least not any Sith) otherwise, the Force wouldn't be in balance. If there are any other Dark Jedi etc. that Palpatine trained, then why didn't he chose much sooner (i.e. before he learned about Luke's existence) to take one of those (or lure any other Dark Jedi) as his learner, as GL explains in the ANH DVD commentary that Anakin didn't turn out the way Sidious had expected? GL even called Vader a "pathetic figure" (in light of the PT of course).

Mange the Swede wrote:You're right that it seems simplistic, but as long as anyone don't use the Dark Side, it isn't very strong. If someone uses the Dark Side repeatedly, it grows. Yoda didn't tell Luke the truth in ESB when he told him that the Dark Side wasn't stronger, because at that point it was. In AOTC we learn that the Jedis' ability to use the Force has diminished. That is something we wasn't aware of before. The explanation is that the Dark Side has grown to become more powerful than the Light side. Remember, there are only two Siths.

Dear sir, you have changed your position. At first, you claimed that the dark side existed only when actively used by dark side users. Now you claim that the dark side can exist independently, but in a naturally weak state. These two positions are incompatible; which do you profess? Can the dark side exist independently of dark side users, or can it not?
No, I don't believe it exists independently, but since there is one Dark Jedi (or lunatic, rather), Joruus C'Baoth to deal with, I think that the Dark Side could be so weak so that it really doesn't matter, the Force is still in balance since there only is one Dark Side user who is erratic and isn't a Sith. It cannot grow with only Joruus C'Baoth as user as he lacks some knowledge about the Force that could be exclusive to the Sith.

Notice that even in the Prequel Era there are still other dark side users aside from the Sith Lords. The Sith's particular role in the disruption of the balance of the Force does not render the existence of other dark side practitioners impossible. It is quite clear from the totality of the evidence that it is the Sith especially, and not the dark side generally, that are responsible for the unbalance in the Force.

PUBLIUS

So who are those? I'm not familiar with that (I'm sorry, I lack somewhat in my knowledge of certain parts of the EU). You know that the Jedi used screening techniques to prevent Force sensitive persons to "roam freely" (sorry wrong expression, I know, but it's now 23.45 PM here in Sweden, I'm tired and will go to bed right after finishing this) from happen. I know about Naga Sadow, but that and the following events took place long before the events in the PT. Thus, the Force hadn't been in balance in thousands of years until Vader/Anakin fulfilled the Prophecy.

I think we have narrowed the gap a bit. I agree that the Sith made up the bulk of the unbalance of the Force, but that we don't agree on the nature of the Dark Side since the theory states that any other Dark Jedi and their use of the Dark Side would still unbalance the Force and make the Dark Side grow. And I don't think it makes sense to keep Vader for twenty years if there were any other candidates.