Counterterrorism operation

[Sarevok]

In the year 2000 two starships arrive in Earth orbit. One is a Federation Sovereign class starship, the other is an Imperial Nebulon-B frigate. The US goverment asks them to capture Saddam and Osama Bin Laden alive.
Each side has no more intel available than the information generaly available to the public.

The ship that captures two first wins. However due to religious reasons the US does not want the Federation ship to beam up the two. Instead they would have to fight it out on the ground the hard way. So which side wins ?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

In the year 2000 two starships arrive in Earth orbit. One is a Federation Sovereign class starship, the other is an Imperial Nebulon-B frigate. The US goverment asks them to capture Saddam and Osama Bin Laden alive.
Each side has no more intel available than the information generaly available to the public.

The Sovereign won't intervene due to the Prime Directive. The Imperial Neb-B, uh, tell me why it will assist first.

The ship that captures two first wins. However due to religious reasons the US does not want the Federation ship to beam up the two. Instead they would have to fight it out on the ground the hard way. So which side wins ?

The hard part is finding them through billions of lifeform readings. Honestly, as soon as terrorists are located, that cell is basically dead or captured if you transport forces fast enough. Whether you do it by shuttle or transporter makes little difference.

A Neb-B is too small for the Imperials to have assigned real stormtroopers. It carries only 75 troops. Those are probably ordinary Naval Troopers. Those are little better than redshirts. If the RPG stats are any indication, except for the blaster rifle, they receive only basic training in most weapons, so they probably be significantly better trained than security redshirts.

They have pistols and probably E11s are available on the ship, as well as some light weapons like grenades or even T21 light repeating blasters, but they only have a blast helmet (no armor, just like the redshirts). Hell, the redshirts even have an equipment advantage because at least they have tricorders (they may be active devices, but they are certainly better than nothing). I'm not sure what, if any, special detection equipment those security troops have ... certainly it won't be close to stormtrooper gear - they might have macrobinoculars stuck somewhere.

[Robert Walper]

However due to religious reasons the US does not want the Federation ship to beam up the two.

Since the transporter obviously gives an advantage to the Starfleet ship and you feel the need to strip them of that, why not play fair and invent some clever reason to hinder the SW side as well? To be fair, you need to hinder an ability that gives them a key advantage.

Besides, assuming the individuals in question are located and locked onto, what's to stop the Federation crew from transporting up the two anyhow and putting them into US hands afterwards with a conventional method, like a shuttlecraft?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

However due to religious reasons the US does not want the Federation ship to beam up the two.

Since the transporter obviously gives an advantage to the Starfleet ship and you feel the need to strip them of that, why not play fair and invent some clever reason to hinder the SW side as well? To be fair, you need to hinder an ability that gives them a key advantage.

The SW guys in this case have no key advantage, because both sides are basically security troops that are totally unsuitable for such missions. Their ship has more firepower, but I suppose the scenario is not about finding Osama bin Laden and turbolasing him into a melt, or burning up a city while you are doing it.

Look, if we assume both sides are being played with competent commanders, this is one of those games set so ST could actually win. So stop whining already.

[Robert Walper]

Look, if we assume both sides are being played with competent commanders, this is one of those games set so ST could actually win. So stop whining already.

So you're saying the Star Trek side had to be handicapped to even the playing field. Fine, so long as that's made clear.

[Mange]

In the year 2000 two starships arrive in Earth orbit. One is a Federation Sovereign class starship, the other is an Imperial Nebulon-B frigate. The US goverment asks them to capture Saddam and Osama Bin Laden alive.
Each side has no more intel available than the information generaly available to the public.

The ship that captures two first wins.

Ok, it's a difficult challenge. As an other poster pointed out, the Soverign starship wouldn't interfere because of the Prime Directive and also, not to forget the possible damage to the timeline that would result from doing so. The Imperials wouldn't care at all.

However due to religious reasons the US does not want the Federation ship to beam up the two.

Uhh..., what religious reasons?

Instead they would have to fight it out on the ground the hard way. So which side wins ?

None, since none of the sides would participate in such a hunt.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

So you're saying the Star Trek side had to be handicapped to even the playing field. Fine, so long as that's made clear.

Yeah, probably that was his real intention. After all, who cares about Osama bin Laden's religious beliefs (or fuck all religious beliefs) if we can get him (or at least an identical clone of him, with the original destroyed). To be more realistic, the US government really wants him alive and intact for a trial, and doesn't want to take even the chance that of a failed transport (presumably, whoever was doing the request had read Mike Wong's stuff )

You guys still do have the tricorder. If you use it properly and you have some luck, you should have better Intel. On the other hand, the Imperials might have better training, and they would likely have more weapons (like grenades). I suppose we could say they would have masks suitable for limited CW (gas masks, which is part of ship damage control equipment), so the Imperials would have the advantage of being to use smoke and possible stun gas.

[Darth Wong]

However due to religious reasons the US does not want the Federation ship to beam up the two.

Since the transporter obviously gives an advantage to the Starfleet ship and you feel the need to strip them of that, why not play fair and invent some clever reason to hinder the SW side as well? To be fair, you need to hinder an ability that gives them a key advantage.

Don't be a whiner. The scenario is already designed in such a manner that the Imperials' vastly superior speed and firepower advantage is nullified by virtue of being irrelevant. What the fuck more handicapping of the Imps do you want? Besides, how is the Federation even going to find Bin Laden? Scan for special Bin Laden signals? He's one of six billion humans on the planet's surface.

[Robert Walper]

Since the transporter obviously gives an advantage to the Starfleet ship and you feel the need to strip them of that, why not play fair and invent some clever reason to hinder the SW side as well? To be fair, you need to hinder an ability that gives them a key advantage.

Don't be a whiner. The scenario is already designed in such a manner that the Imperials' vastly superior speed and firepower advantage is nullified by virtue of being irrelevant.

So? The Federation's warp drive is also irrelevent. The transporter system would not be irrelevent, as it would offer a potentially very useful tool in this scenario.

What the fuck more handicapping of the Imps do you want?

They haven't been handicapped at all. I would consider the Imperial's handicapped if the OP fixed the scenario so the Imperials couldn't use a part of their technological arsenal that would be useful. Say, like blasters, or landing craft.

Besides, how is the Federation even going to find Bin Laden? Scan for special Bin Laden signals? He's one of six billion humans on the planet's surface.

Besides, assuming the individuals in question are located and locked onto

Pay attention please.

[Darth Wong]

Since the transporter obviously gives an advantage to the Starfleet ship and you feel the need to strip them of that, why not play fair and invent some clever reason to hinder the SW side as well? To be fair, you need to hinder an ability that gives them a key advantage.

Don't be a whiner. The scenario is already designed in such a manner that the Imperials' vastly superior speed and firepower advantage is nullified by virtue of being irrelevant.

So? The Federation's warp drive is also irrelevent. The transporter system would not be irrelevent, as it would offer a potentially very useful tool in this scenario.

Only if they already know his exact co-ordinates: an advantage you conveniently assume they have.

What the fuck more handicapping of the Imps do you want?

They haven't been handicapped at all. I would consider the Imperial's handicapped if the OP fixed the scenario so the Imperials couldn't use a part of their technological arsenal that would be useful. Say, like blasters, or landing craft.

The fact that they have to capture him alive with a ground operation instead of simply threatening to raze the entire Middle East (as per standard Imperial tactics) is already getting in their way.

Besides, how is the Federation even going to find Bin Laden? Scan for special Bin Laden signals? He's one of six billion humans on the planet's surface.

Besides, assuming the individuals in question are located and locked onto

Pay attention please.

Your statement of the stupid assumption does not validate the stupid assumption, you idiot.

[Robert Walper]

Only if they already know his exact co-ordinates: an advantage you conveniently assume they have.

No, I don't assume they have them. I, however, do assume they can acquire them if and when they locate him. Federation personnel, IIRC, have demostrated the capability to target and transport objects and persons simply by informing the orbiting ship of the target relative to their own position. Detection devices, like the Tricoders, should make this even easier. The transporter doesn't have to single out one individual either, they can beam up entire parties into brigs or containment areas if need be and sort them out from there.

The fact that they have to capture him alive with a ground operation instead of simply threatening to raze the entire Middle East (as per standard Imperial tactics) is already getting in their way.

The Federation starship could theoritically do something similar, though it's not as powerful. The objective of capturing Bin Laden alive renders both sides handicapped in that regard, not just the Imperials. That's fair, regardless of the political nature of the ships in question which determines whether or not they'd actually do it.

Your statement of the stupid assumption does not validate the stupid assumption, you idiot.

I didn't assume they'd just "have" his coordinates. I assume that Federation ground forces can acquire them, even if they have to beam up groups of individuals at a time and sort from there.

[Darth Wong]

Only if they already know his exact co-ordinates: an advantage you conveniently assume they have.

No, I don't assume they have them. I, however, do assume they can acquire them if and when they locate him.

Oh right, so you simply give them the one thing which the US military has been trying to do for two full years.

The Federation starship could theoritically do something similar, though it's not as powerful. The objective of capturing Bin Laden alive renders both sides handicapped in that regard, not just the Imperials. That's fair, regardless of the political nature of the ships in question which determines whether or not they'd actually do it.

The point here is that you chose to whine about the scenario and about "handicapping" rather than taking it as-is, when there are many ground to complain about "handicapping".

I didn't assume they'd just "have" his coordinates. I assume that Federation ground forces can acquire them, even if they have to beam up groups of individuals at a time and sort from there.

Oh right, at their maximum beam-up and beam-down rate, how long would it take to check through the millions of people in the entire region where he is suspected to be? Brilliant strategy

[Ghost Rider]

And so what are they going to do, Walper?

Beam up by the thousands?

Seriously your assumption that all they have to do is beam and sort is akin to a the view of to find one specfic fish... all one just has to is keep fishing. Yes, it works...but is by far the most inane and stupid manner to approach a problem.

Hell even the Federation acknowledges the usage of intelligence...use the brain you were given and come up with something better then Mass Beaming.

[Robert Walper]

The point here is that you chose to whine about the scenario and about "handicapping" rather than taking it as-is, when there are many ground to complain about "handicapping".

Alright, I'll concede that then. I'll stop whining.

[nightmare]

Hmm.. the imperials should be able to send out probe droids (not the big kind from Hoth, but a smaller model, like Mauls Dark Eyes) that can identify the two by visuals they get from the US gov. The droids will be able to work without rest and fly anywhere the targets can go, that should be an edge in finding them, which is the main problem.

[SirNitram]

The biggest advantage in the Imperial's court is the choice of vehicle. The Neb-B has atmospheric capability and onboard fighters, allowing it to get down low and keep an eye on things.

[Alyeska]

The Sovereign has shuttles and transporters. It might not be able to transport the two suspects, but it can transport its own troops. Hell, it can even transport shuttles.

[SirNitram]

The Sovereign has shuttles and transporters. It might not be able to transport the two suspects, but it can transport its own troops. Hell, it can even transport shuttles.

Oh, no doubts. However, I am referring to the ability to perform low-altitude scans for lifesigns in remote areas, with much greater speed and near immunity to any weapons that could be brought against them. While the Sov has shuttles, it is unlikely to have as many as the Neb has TIEs, and can't go atmospheric to assist.

[Darth Wong]

The OP very clearly specifies that neither party has any more intel than what is available to the general public right now, and that is prettty fucking thin intel.

Ergo, the ability to move men onto the surface is totally irrelevant. What you need is intel, and if he knows how to stay hidden from American warplanes, drones, and satellites, I don't see why the Enterprise should be able to find him. As I've pointed out before, this isn't one of those situations where they can scan for human lifesigns amid an alien population: Bin Laden is not putting out any special signals they can key on, and is surrounded by billions of other humans.

The key element here will be HUMINT, not orbital photography. And in that department, both sides are starting out with precisely JACK SHIT. The odds of success are going to be quite low, as most of their advanced technology and superior weapons won't help them. However, in a race where the objective is to extract information from the local population, I would give the Imps the edge because of the much higher likelihood that they will employ ruthless tactics. The only problem is that the US would have to spend the next few decades trying to apologize for or explain away the atrocities the Imperials committed while bagging Bin Laden for them.

[dragon]

Ok its been a while since I have seen TNG but there was one ep. where they were dealing with terrorists. Can't rember how they found them but they beamed through the ground to get at them. So could they scan Afghananstian(sp) to find groups of people with weapons and then beam them up into a holodeck where they could trick them into believing that they died and are before their god and must tell what they know.

[Darth Wong]

Ok its been a while since I have seen TNG but there was one ep. where they were dealing with terrorists. Can't rember how they found them but they beamed through the ground to get at them.

The Rutian terrorists were using a specialized subspace transporter which left a signature that they could trace. Good luck using this trick on Osama Bin-Laden.

So could they scan Afghananstian(sp) to find groups of people with weapons and then beam them up into a holodeck where they could trick them into believing that they died and are before their god and must tell what they know.

I hate to break it to you, but everybody out there has weapons. And on the infinitesimal chance that you actually get someone who happens to know Bin-Laden's current location, he isn't going to fall for this trick; how fucking stupid do you think they are? Why would Allah need to interrogate them for the location of Osama Bin-Laden? He's all-knowing, remember?

[dragon]

True their not that stupid. What do you think either side could do to interrogate them. SW had a hard time breaking the princess, or were they even trying. And in ST the prisoners tend to escape.

[Alyeska]

Here is a crazy idea... The Enterprise can use US inteligence to get a basic idea where to pinpoint searches.

The Enterprise now begins beaming up people at random and running them through the holodeck with an "Allah" program designed to interogate the people for information.

[Darth Wong]

Here is a crazy idea... The Enterprise can use US inteligence to get a basic idea where to pinpoint searches.

No, they can't. The OP specifies that they don't know anything more than what the GENERAL PUBLIC knows. And the "Allah holodeck" trick is not likely to work. For one thing, most people aren't going to know where he is; this guy hasn't stayed alive this long by letting every Abdul and Mohammed in the entire region know where he's staying. And the few who do know where he is will be incredibly suspicious and paranoid, and aren't likely to believe that almight Allah needs their help to figure out where Osama Bin-Laden is no matter what fantastic visual you show them. They'll probably think they were put on hallucinogenic drugs by the CIA.

[Robert Walper]

No, they can't. The OP specifies that they don't know anything more than what the GENERAL PUBLIC knows.

I don't see the OP asserting or implying either side is not permitted to gather intel. Consulting or extracting US information sources would make sense and should be the first move on either side.