Secularising Islam

[Wired_Grenadier]

I'm not saying that there is an alternative for us - there quite clearly isn't. That doesn't mean that I'll have to be happy with what it will result in...

[Admiral Valdemar]

Right now, I don't think the people are happy with the situation as it is. They'll want change and that will start with withdrawing from that proverbial shitstorm we call Iraq. From there on it's up in the air.

[Chris OFarrell]

Poor resources into the development of Fussion technology. With that in place, the energy needs of the west will be more or less met indefinently. We would need only an infintesimal fraction of the oil we currently need for lubricants and such and be able to meet these needs from Western sources.

You can't fix Islam. You can't alter it from the West overtly, its impossible at best and a decleration of war at worst.

After we get out of the Oil business and with a hydrogen/fussion infastructure, suddenly no-one will need or car about the Middle East. Specificaly the oil producing countries. I have a horrible fealing that (with the exception of Isreail) it will turn into a second Africa. No masses of Cash comming in anymore, no real major exports.

The only other thing we can do is attack Islam by stealth. Invest heavily in bringing up the education standards. Let them teach Islam all they want, but alongside science and technology. Bring up their infastructure. Long term, over many generations. If you bring their education slowly upto Western levels, you'll have generations that progressivly are looking less and less at Islam as an explenation for everything all the time.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I've seen a lot of bitching about the current Bush policy. So my open-ended question to the collective wisdom of the board here is:

How would you secularise the religion of Islam and end the threat of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism?

Give concrete steps, keeping in mind conditions and limitations. Like world opinion, oil supplies, alliances etc.

TWG

Certainly. All you need to do is follow the steps for fixing communism.

[The_Nice_Guy]

Loaded question. You're assuming that anyone who criticizes Bush's policy for democratizing the Middle East (not secularizing -- what the fuck would make you think that a creationist is interested in secularizing anything?) has a better plan for doing so rather than simply saying that we shouldn't even bother.

Who knows, maybe somebody does have a better plan. You said it yourself: Develop fusion so that the developed world can disregard the Middle East and let them stew in their own faeces.

However, fusion is still quite some time away, and we have to put up with Islamic fundamentalism even now. Maybe there is a short term solution, maybe there really isn't. But we can't know for sure until we try. Uh... oops.(Do or do not, there is no try?)

Also, developing fusion would hardly prevent terrorists from crossing borders and blowing themselves up. And it still doesn't answer the question: How the hell do you secularise Islam?

Note that ME is not the only major source of Muslims in the world. There're plenty of Muslims all over the world, and some of them are just as belligerent.

TWG

[Durandal]

Who knows, maybe somebody does have a better plan. You said it yourself: Develop fusion so that the developed world can disregard the Middle East and let them stew in their own faeces.

Which doesn't qualify as a plan for secularizing the Middle East, genius. It qualifies as a plan for dealing with them.

[The_Nice_Guy]

Who knows, maybe somebody does have a better plan. You said it yourself: Develop fusion so that the developed world can disregard the Middle East and let them stew in their own faeces.

Which doesn't qualify as a plan for secularizing the Middle East, genius. It qualifies as a plan for dealing with them.

And if you read my original question, you'll realise I was asking for ways on how to secularise Islam, not just the Middle East.

The original question was "How would you secularise the religion of Islam and end the threat of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism?"

I suppose I should have quantified my question somewhat. What does 'end the threat' mean? No more attacks, ever? I would define it as Islam being neutered, much like Christianity in Europe, as others have mentioned here. There would still be fundamentalists around, but in such small numbers that it does not matter.

TWG

[Bugsby]

This is a dumb topic of conversation. How do you secularize Islam? Two key phrases that make this line of questioning useless.

1) YOU. Who is "you?" By "you," do you mean us, the western societies? If you do, you are going down the wrong path. We can't do anything. Change comes from WITHIN a culture. The only way to forcibly change someones culture is to come down on them with utter conquest and decades of ruthless oppression. This will make some slight changes.

2) SECULARIZE ISLAM: how exactly does one go about SECULARIZING RELIGION? Huh?

The only possible meaning I can determine from this is: "By what possible method would the culture found in most islamic societies become more secular?" That's a good question. And the answer is that it needs to happen slowly through education to people on all levels of the culture and in the religious establishment. It has to be a passive thing.... no one can force a culture to change, it has to want to change itself.

But seriously, the way you pose this question is as if we the people of the United States can go into the Middle East, show those stupid bastards who's boss and make them devoted worshipers of American full of western ideals in a matter of a year or two. BULLSHIT.

[The_Nice_Guy]

This is a dumb topic of conversation. How do you secularize Islam? Two key phrases that make this line of questioning useless.

1) YOU. Who is "you?" By "you," do you mean us, the western societies? If you do, you are going down the wrong path. We can't do anything. Change comes from WITHIN a culture. The only way to forcibly change someones culture is to come down on them with utter conquest and decades of ruthless oppression. This will make some slight changes.

Good point. It took two atomic bombs to do that to imperial Japan. However, decades of ruthless oppression... well, their imperialism is different from Islam, after all. Islam is harder to crack, and has a whole support base from all over the world to self reinforce pathologies.

2) SECULARIZE ISLAM: how exactly does one go about SECULARIZING RELIGION? Huh?

The only possible meaning I can determine from this is: "By what possible method would the culture found in most islamic societies become more secular?" That's a good question. And the answer is that it needs to happen slowly through education to people on all levels of the culture and in the religious establishment. It has to be a passive thing.... no one can force a culture to change, it has to want to change itself.

That's a good rephrasing of my question.

If indeed change must come from within Islam itself, we're due for many more years of pain, if not never. That education which you cite just isn't going to happen unless somebody holds a gun to the authorities in various parts of the Islamic world and forces them to institute more secularism into their educational systems.

But seriously, the way you pose this question is as if we the people of the United States can go into the Middle East, show those stupid bastards who's boss and make them devoted worshipers of American full of western ideals in a matter of a year or two. BULLSHIT.

A year or two is nuts, but I think you might have a point in thinking that Shrub and Co are indeed operating on the assumption that just a year or two would be enough. It have to be decades, but who knows, it might even work.

The other point is that a great part of that would have to involve educating the youth of the Middle East to avoid future problems. Right now, their children are all learning from the same poisoned well, and unless there's some external force, I don't see that changing.

*shrugs*

I guess the whole point of this exercise is to see just what options are available. There's also the temptation whenever there's a problem to try to source for a solution, to do something.

TWG

[Bugsby]

A year or two is nuts, but I think you might have a point in thinking that Shrub and Co are indeed operating on the assumption that just a year or two would be enough. It have to be decades, but who knows, it might even work.

It might at that. The problem is that the Bush administration is basing the actions of today on the pipe dreams of tomorrow. He has a goal that would be noble if there were ANY hope of achieving it in the timeframe he would like. But there isn't. Islam isn't ready for what we're doing, and even if it was, this is the worst possible way to go about bringing democracy. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a government of the people, by the people, and for the people should not be pushed on the people at gunpoint.

[AniThyng]

the nice guy : you're singaporean right? so how do you feel about KL and it's policies on islam then?

[The_Nice_Guy]

As long as the 'moderates' of UMNO remain in power, rather than PAS or the other fundies, I'm content. The present demographics of Malaysia also provides a useful brake on any present move towards further radicalisation of the Malaysian legal and political systems in favor of Muslims, though that may change as more chinese leave or are outbreeded into irrelevance. I don't like the Muslim-bias policy, which is in effect racism, but on the whole the Malaysian government is pragmatic enough not to push the issue too hard.

The key issue now is how fast the Muslims of Malaysia can adapt themselves to the secularism of the modern world, and hopefully have a subtantial number take up the leftist liberal position which would effectively render them anti-fundamentalist for the most part.

The march towards social liberalism would also provide an important turning point in Muslim attitudes towards Islam, which can already be seen in Singapore and parts of Malaysia. Just go to any shopping mall and look at the Muslim youth, listening to western music, decked out in western products, drinking and indulging in actions which would send an hardline cleric into fits of apoplexy.

The shift towards secularism, by means of economic affluence and education, would take about another 20 years to complete by my estimates, as long as the radicals don't usurp the process. IMHO, the future source for moderate/modern Islamic thought is more likely to spring from Malaysia and Singapore than from Europe(Turkey) or the Middle East.

We just need to hang on, dammit.

TWG

[AniThyng]

As long as the 'moderates' of UMNO remain in power, rather than PAS or the other fundies, I'm content. The present demographics of Malaysia also provides a useful brake on any present move towards further radicalisation of the Malaysian legal and political systems in favor of Muslims, though that may change as more chinese leave or are outbreeded into irrelevance. I don't like the Muslim-bias policy, which is in effect racism, but on the whole the Malaysian government is pragmatic enough not to push the issue too hard.

The key issue now is how fast the Muslims of Malaysia can adapt themselves to the secularism of the modern world, and hopefully have a subtantial number take up the leftist liberal position which would effectively render them anti-fundamentalist for the most part.

The march towards social liberalism would also provide an important turning point in Muslim attitudes towards Islam, which can already be seen in Singapore and parts of Malaysia. Just go to any shopping mall and look at the Muslim youth, listening to western music, decked out in western products, drinking and indulging in actions which would send an hardline cleric into fits of apoplexy.

The shift towards secularism, by means of economic affluence and education, would take about another 20 years to complete by my estimates, as long as the radicals don't usurp the process. IMHO, the future source for moderate/modern Islamic thought is more likely to spring from Malaysia and Singapore than from Europe(Turkey) or the Middle East.

We just need to hang on, dammit.

TWG

hmm. yeah i agree with most of your points there. actually i'm malaysian chinese so i already am living with this, but i was curious what it appears to people who are not in malaysia but yet close enough to be famaliar with it on a personal basis.