What if Darth Maul had lived...

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-01 10:37pm

In the story as it actually unfolds, you can see Palpatine (whom we know to be Darth Sideous) buttering up Anakin, telling him how powerful he is and how great his future can be, and clearly cultivating him as a future apprentice. We can also reason that Dooku, once he'd been turned, was a nearly ideal temporary replacement for Darth Maul. A powerful, fully trained Jedi master like Dooku is someone Sideous wouldn't have to spend years training up from beginner level - years he didn't have if he were still to carry out his plan following the unexpected loss of Darth Maul. But Dooku, while ideal in the short term, is not ideal in the long term. The long years Sideous spent training Darth Maul were also long years spent indoctrinating him and bending him to Sideous' will. Dooku, not having received any of that, and moreover having been turned at a rather old age is probably far more independent by nature, and more likely to try overthrowing Sideous at some point and setting up on his own. Consequently, Papatine quietly begins cultivating the far more impressionable and malleable Anakin as Dooku's eventual replacement.

But suppose Darth Maul had not been killed on Naboo. Suppose instead that Amidala and her guardsmen capture Nute Gunray and the other Nemoidians much earlier, and then Amidala decides to help the Jedi. So immediately after killing Qui Gon, Darth Maul is forced to break off combat with Obi Wan and flee, as he cannot face both Obi Wan and the large numbers of guardsmen pouring into the generator complex. He could probably deal with either Obi Wan alone (or so he thinks - though we know Obi Wan got the better of him as it happened), or the guardsmen, but not both at once. So he excercises the better part of valor and retreats.

How does this affect Sideous' plans? Sideous/Palpatine has still achieved his strategic objective - getting the chancellorship and using the crisis as an excuse to increase his politcal power. But with Darth Maul still in the picture, Sideous has far less need to cultivate Anakin, and none at all to turn Dooku. Would Sideous still have gone after Anakin anyway, thinking to replace Maul with a Jedi who looked likely to become far more powerful in the end? Or would he have disregarded Anakin, sticking to Darth Maul as his apprentice, and eventual successor? And if this latter scenario is the case, would the fact that Anakin does not turn, and the Jedi now have an extraordinarily powerful ally, rather than a turncoat who sabotages the order from within and then assists in wiping it out, tilt the balance in favor of the Jedi, and enable them to thwart Sideous' plan?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-10-02 12:05am

I think Palpatine could have kept Maul around as his attack dog/errand runner while still utilizing Dooku with the intention that he would be disposed of when no longer needed.

Plus I think it was to his benefit to keep after Anakin as well if only because it stirs up problems within the Jedi ranks.

Maul could mostly stay in the Shadows and to the really quiet stuff that Palpatine needs done while Dooku does his bit with the separatists and Anakin is used against the Jedi.

Palpatine can then use Anakin and/or Maul to work to get rid of Dooku when he's no longer useful and then whichever survives of the two can be Palpatine's apprentice.

Darth Maul · Post by **Darth Maul** » 2004-10-02 06:53pm

But by Sith "law so to speak" there can only be 1 apprentice and 1 master. Sidious could not have both.

If Maul had lived, Sidious would have most likely pitted him against Dooku and if he survived Anakin after Dooku.

So the real question is, could Maul take Dooku? Dooku has near mastery of the force (evidenced by Force lightning of which only Sidious has done well okay maybe Yoda but I dont think he attacked with it he mearly tossed it back) but (and I think most people would agree with me) Darth Maul has mastery of the Lightsaber/Double Bladed/and I'm guessing duel bladed. Sure Dooku has his funky lightsaber that is more for jabbing attacks, but Maul took a (was Qui Gon a master?) and a Knight at the same time. Sure others could of did that, but Maul commanded that fight.

Maul didn't show many force powers (leading me to believe he was not that talented in the Force) but he could of known them. I'm Reading Shadow Hunter right now so I could be wrong if he shows mastery of force powers.

So in the end, even if Maul defeated Dooku, Anakin would most likely have demolished him.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-10-02 07:32pm

Maul most certainly does have Force powers, canonically: pinpoint-accurate telekinesis (throwing a droid to hit a door switch) and Force-jumping (how the hell do you think he manages those fancy hops around the place while fighting?). I don't remember too much about Shadow Hunter, but it definitely showed Maul tapping into the Force for various purposes-- reading people, searching after Jedi, etcetera...

As to the OP: Palpatine needed the Separatists in order to have an Galactic Civil War, and take over the Republic. Therefore, it is to his advantage to have someone bring all the diverse groups (Techno Union, TradeFed, and so forth) together, which was Dooku's purpose. Conceivably, through careful use of holographs, he could probably do the job-- but as chancellor of the Republic, he'd be under intense scrutiny and wouldn't have nearly as much opportunity to do so as an in-person emissary.

Maul hardly struck me as the diplomatic type; his idea of "diplomacy" is probably sticking his lightsaber in people's faces and saying, "Okay, you're gonna do what my Master says, or else...". Dooku, on the other hand, is an experienced Jedi, an negotiator; he can tap into people's emotions and carefully push them towards agreeing if necessary.

What I figure Palpatine was doing: he was turning Dooku long before AOTC, since the librarian mentions (I believe) that he left the Order about ten years ago... which, if you ask me, corresdeponds nicely with Maul's death. Obviously Palpatine decided to disregard the rule about two apprentinces; Maul was his obvious one, but Dooku was merely an adept or some such who Palpatine had turned and was holding in reserve in case his impetuous attack-dog apprentice got killed on a mission. Also, Dooku would come in useful in situations where a diplomatic hand was required.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-10-02 10:13pm

If the game SW: Bounty Hunter and the comic Series Jango Fett: Open Seasons are any sources to go by. You are made to believe that Dooku was trained as a Dark Jedi by Palpatine shortly after Mauls Death. Palpatine used Dooku to find a clone prime that will do the job that he wanted to be done with the Clone Troopers. Since they were "grown" for about 10 years thats when Dooku was first visually used as the next Dark Jedi. (using Dark Jedi over Sith since Dooku was trained as a Jedi and fell to the dark side). Plus the books and games say "This series takes place approx. 10 years before AOTC"

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-02 11:23pm

If Dooku was found by Palpy actively searching, he'll never find Dooku. If Dooku was found because Palpy saw his potential, he'll probably train Dooku and never mention Maul's existance, OR train them both. During the Clone Wars Dooku will be a leader and Maul will be an executer (going directly into combat more often), and Maul will probably at some point be killed on the battlefield with a lot of Jedi. Otherwise, he'll probably be killed by Anakin, or Mace Windu, or someone else when he tries to help in the Jedi purge.

Darth Maul · Post by **Darth Maul** » 2004-10-03 08:13am

You'll have to excuse me, I have not seen Episode 1 since its been released. But even the common padawan can use TK and force jump can they not? We didn't see Maul tossing around lightjning like Dooku.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2004-10-03 08:38am

Darth Maul wrote:We didn't see Maul tossing around lightjning like Dooku.

Maul would be better off concentrating fighting with two Jedi wielding lightsabers centimeters away from him and at times in tight formation with one another than to fire force lightning. You also have to remember that Maul was in continuous battle, after parrying and throwing one off, the other comes in leaving him no time to use it.

Edit: If it's anything to go by, Sidious also called Maul his apprentice in which might indicate that he doesn't know many of the arts of the dark side.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-03 10:07am

Soontir C'boath wrote:
Darth Maul wrote:We didn't see Maul tossing around lightjning like Dooku.

Maul would be better off concentrating fighting with two Jedi wielding lightsabers centimeters away from him and at times in tight formation with one another than to fire force lightning. You also have to remember that Maul was in continuous battle, after parrying and throwing one off, the other comes in leaving him no time to use it.

Edit: If it's anything to go by, Sidious also called Maul his apprentice in which might indicate that he doesn't know many of the arts of the dark side.

He also called him "Lord Maul" at one point in the film though. I don't think he'd be called that if he wasn't fully trained yet.

Maybe we just, uh, never see the times when Maul had to toss some lightning.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-10-03 10:12am

I think you need to know the timeline of events leading to Dooku turning.

1- Maul dies
2- Nute Gunray tries to make a deal with the Republic and the Jedi and tells them all about Sidious (Nute doesn't know Palpatine = Sidious)
3- The Jedi don't believe him
4- Dooku, a friend of Gunray, believes him and promises to deal with Sidious
5- Dooku leaves the Jedi Order to go hunt down Sidious
6- Dooku finds Sidious, Sidious turns him, Dooku becomes a Sith

With Maul in the picture, it's possible that Palpatine would either
A- Say 'screw the rule of two'. There are indications in Shadow hunter, and in the rest of the EU that he was considering doing this once all the Jedi are dead (i.e the Secret Order of the Emperor and the Prophets of the Darkside approximates Sith Acolytes and low level Sith Lords, the Imperial Inquisitors and his Dark Jedi approximate Sith Warriors and low level Sith lords).

He could have ended up with Darth Maul doing the grunt work, Darth Tyranous as the political figure, himself behind the scences, and grooming Anakin in secret to eliminate them both later.....

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-03 12:13pm

How do you know that Nute Gunray went to the Republic/ Jedi?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-10-03 12:56pm

Vympel wrote:How do you know that Nute Gunray went to the Republic/ Jedi?

In the Darth Maul comic a Neimoidian is talking to a vigo of the Blacksun attempting to convince him that the Sith have returned and that he has information to sell him about their plans.

It doesn't really say that he went to the Jedi. In fact I think it implies he stayed away from them because he knew they wouldn't pay for the information since, "the Jedi don't buy anything". So I would think a member of the Trade Federation would have to be very desperate to go to the Jedi with any information since the information would likely have to be given voluntarilly.

I think that comic ends as a lead in to the book Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-10-03 01:19pm

Actually, the Neimoidian is Hath Monchar, one of Gunray's lackeys; Shadow Hunter details Maul's hunt for Monchar and the information Monchar carries. Monchar was acting independently and treasonously, and therefore Maul was sent to eliminate him.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-10-03 01:23pm

Elheru Aran wrote:Actually, the Neimoidian is Hath Monchar, one of Gunray's lackeys; Shadow Hunter details Maul's hunt for Monchar and the information Monchar carries. Monchar was acting independently and treasonously, and therefore Maul was sent to eliminate him.

Right, I was thinking there was a pretty close tie between the comic and Shadow Hunter but I thought SH was kind of boring so I don't remember it too well.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-10-03 08:02pm

Darth Maul wrote:But by Sith "law so to speak" there can only be 1 apprentice and 1 master. Sidious could not have both.

If Maul had lived, Sidious would have most likely pitted him against Dooku and if he survived Anakin after Dooku.

Canonically we know that Palpatine isn't a big follower of this, he's got Dooku under his thumb but is also working on Anakin.

Vohu Manah · Post by **Vohu Manah** » 2004-10-04 06:46am

As the Dark Lord of the Sith, Palpatine/Sidious would (or should) have the power to repeal the "rule of two."

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-04 09:16am

Vohu Manah wrote:As the Dark Lord of the Sith, Palpatine/Sidious would (or should) have the power to repeal the "rule of two."

Of course he had the power. Any Sith Lord who was in the master role at any given time would have the power. He's the top man; who's going to tell him he can't? The question is whether or not he would. The Sith adopted the rule in the first place because they found that when there were multiple Sith in the picture, they invariably turned on each other because they all wanted to be top dog. What would make Palpatine think anything had changed regarding this, so that now he can get away with having multiple apprentices?

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-04 10:20am

What I figure Palpatine was doing: he was turning Dooku long before AOTC, since the librarian mentions (I believe) that he left the Order about ten years ago... which, if you ask me, corresdeponds nicely with Maul's death. Obviously Palpatine decided to disregard the rule about two apprentinces; Maul was his obvious one, but Dooku was merely an adept or some such who Palpatine had turned and was holding in reserve in case his impetuous attack-dog apprentice got killed on a mission. Also, Dooku would come in useful in situations where a diplomatic hand was required.

I think it's far more reasonable to assume that Palpatine didn't break the rule of two, and merely put his influence on Dooku at the time of Darth Maul's death. Count Dooku may have already left, he may not have, but something as vague as "ten years ago" (i.e. the period of time between TPM and AOTC) leaves a lot to happen. It's not like turning to the Dark Side is a slow and hard path.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-04 12:48pm

Vympel wrote:
What I figure Palpatine was doing: he was turning Dooku long before AOTC, since the librarian mentions (I believe) that he left the Order about ten years ago... which, if you ask me, corresdeponds nicely with Maul's death. Obviously Palpatine decided to disregard the rule about two apprentinces; Maul was his obvious one, but Dooku was merely an adept or some such who Palpatine had turned and was holding in reserve in case his impetuous attack-dog apprentice got killed on a mission. Also, Dooku would come in useful in situations where a diplomatic hand was required.
I think it's far more reasonable to assume that Palpatine didn't break the rule of two, and merely put his influence on Dooku at the time of Darth Maul's death. Count Dooku may have already left, he may not have, but something as vague as "ten years ago" (i.e. the period of time between TPM and AOTC) leaves a lot to happen. It's not like turning to the Dark Side is a slow and hard path.

I think this is supported by Geo. Lucas' comments on the special edition DVDs. He comments in the final lightsaber duel in ROTJ that the Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader and take his place. Vader, since he has lost so much of himself, and become a half-machine man, forever encased in a heavy life support suit, is less powerful than he had the potential to be, and the Emperor wants a younger, stronger apprentice to be a replacement for Vader, just as he had groomed the powerful, yet malleable young prodigy Anakin Skywalker to be a replacement for Dooku decades earlier. He never meant to have either Anakin and Dooku, or Vader and Luke both alive and serving him at the same time; in both cases, one was always intended to destroy and replace the other. This suggests that Palpatine was adhering to the rule of two, because he also understood that if he had more than one apprentice, they would start plotting and fighting each other, and perhaps against himself as well.

So this gets back to my original question: if Maul had lived, would Palpatine ever have tried to turn Anakin? And if he hadn't, could the addition of a powerful Jedi like Anakin on the good side have tilted the balance?

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-10-04 11:55pm

I think Sidious sent Maul off to fight two Jedi fully expecting him to croak. He had outlived his usefulness. The plan no longer called for a lightsaber thug like Maul, but instead for someone politically adept like Dooku.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-05 01:42am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:I think Sidious sent Maul off to fight two Jedi fully expecting him to croak. He had outlived his usefulness. The plan no longer called for a lightsaber thug like Maul, but instead for someone politically adept like Dooku.

If Maul was meant to be killed in what was almost his first serious engagement, when did the plan ever call for someone who was "a lightsaber thug"? Why would a master plotter spend years, if not decades training cannon fodder?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-10-05 03:47am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:I think Sidious sent Maul off to fight two Jedi fully expecting him to croak. He had outlived his usefulness. The plan no longer called for a lightsaber thug like Maul, but instead for someone politically adept like Dooku.

I always hated that characterization of Maul. That he was all brawn and no brains. I'm sorry, but it is such horseshit. You do not make it through Sith training if you aren't extremely clever and subtle and sneaky. Some bits hint that he is like that. James Luceano's E-book was good about that, Maul makes a point of rigging industrial accidents and the like when he has to off someone so that there are no lightsabre marks. He even goes so far as to force choke somone so it looks like a simple robbery even after the person figures him out. Much better job then Shadow Hunter.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-10-06 12:14am

A saber-thug with no officially existing identity is great for covertly killing people and raising hell while you're making your way up the political ladder. However, when it comes time for the apprentice to step onto the galactic stage and help you start a civil war, scary looks and fighting skills aren't of much use.

No, at that point you need an apprentice with an established reputation and political credibillity of his own. Someone like a charismatic maverick Jedi Master and nobleman, long known to disagree with the political establishment. And once you find him, you're not going to subject him to a duel with your fifty-years-younger thug, as if combat ability really decides who is more worthy. Palpatine isn't a Klingon.

Really, imagine Maul surviving Naboo, then coming home and managing to take out Dooku in a duel. What's Palpy gonna do? Send him on a political mission to gain the support of the Banking Clan with a rousing speech?

If Maul had survived, Palpatine would have gotten rid of him one way or another. He had outlived his usefulness, and with the Rule of Two forcing him to choose, Palpy wasn't about to take him over someone as useful as Dooku.

And as soon as Dooku outlives HIS usefulness and becomes a potential rival, I'm guessing we'll see him put away in favor of a certain headstrong young idiot. And when Vader becomes disloyal and not worth the effort, well, then it's supposed to be Luke's turn. See a pattern here? Palpatine's apprentices are just pawns, chosen for their utility and dropped with no great sentiment.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-10-06 01:19am

If Maul had survived, Palpatine would have gotten rid of him one way or another. He had outlived his usefulness

Its a big galaxy, its absurd to suggest a trained Sith would be utterly useless to Palpitine.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-10-06 01:43am

More appropriate, then, to say that his usefulness had been surpassed by that of another, and that the Rule of Two forced Palpy to choose.