Maul vs Dooku

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-10-06 12:35am

Inspired by the "What if Darth Maul had lived?" thread...

Maul kills Qui-Gon Jinn on Naboo, but is forced to withdraw before facing Obi-Wan. He returns home to face the man Sidious has his eye on as his next apprentice, Count Dooku. The two square off in a duel. Who wins?

My money is on Maul. While Dooku may have a reputation as a skilled fighter, he's an elderly man who's never faced and slain Jedi Masters as Maul has.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-06 12:48am

Dooku whooped Anakin AND Obi-wan's rear, with Anakin weilding two sabers at that, and Obi-wan having 10 years' additional experience.

Maul defeated Qui-gon, but got whooped by Obi-wan, and a far LESS experienced Obi-wan than Dooku defeated. It took YODA to beat Dooku.

My money is on Dooku, though Maul will give him a run for his money. Look at the track records:

Maul:
Defeated one master (Qui-gon)
Lost to one apprentice (Obi-wan)

Dooku:
Defeated one master (Obi-wan)
Defeated one REALLY powerful apprentice (Anakin)
Achieved a stalemate with the most powerful of the Jedi (Yoda).

Dooku looks more powerful to me.

HyperionX · Post by **HyperionX** » 2004-10-06 01:07am

Dooku will just shoot lighting from his fingers and fry Maul. Dooku wins easily.

Deathstalker · Post by **Deathstalker** » 2004-10-06 01:10am

The adage "Youth and skill are no match for experience and treachery" says it all.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-10-06 01:25am

HyperionX wrote:Dooku will just shoot lighting from his fingers and fry Maul. Dooku wins easily.

Obi Wan was able to easily block that with his lightsabre. Unless he can somehow catch Maul offguard the Sith lightning won't be much use.

However, I still personally think that Dooku will win in the end since he has many more years of dueling experience and force training behind him. It was clear from AOTC that despite his age, Dooku is still very quick moving and can control his sabre very well. Plus the fact he was able to best both Obi Wan and Anakin and also hold his own against Yoda should make it pretty clear that Darth Maul would likely lose.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-06 01:56am

Maul bites the dust -- again.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-06 02:31am

Praxis wrote:Achieved a stalemate with the most powerful of the Jedi (Yoda).

By threatening Anakin's and Obi-Wan's lives. I can't imagine that there would be all that many third parties that would make Maul stop fighting to concentrate on saving, so he doesn't have that advantage anymore.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-06 02:59pm

I hate how people in debates always write off Maul's vanquishing of Obi-Wan in actual combat and say, "He beat a jedi master and lost to an aprentice".

Hello, watch TPM again please. He defeated a Jedi master, then defeated in combat the enraged, dark-side-touching apprentice.

He only died because, rather than finish off Obi Wan, he decided to wait for him to tire and fall, gloating at him from the mouth of the shaft. His own pride and ego led directly to his downfall.

Maul fought a long running battle against two jedi at once. That alone elevates him to an unusually high skill level. That he not only fought them, but actually beat them both (killing one and rendering the other "helpless" as he thought) speaks volumes.

Darth Maul is thus an exceptionally powerful Jedi, much more powerful than most other force users in the galaxy at that point.

Darth Maul · Post by **Darth Maul** » 2004-10-06 03:28pm

Judging by the fighting in Episode One and Episode Two, I would have to say that Maul is a much better fighter. You have to remember that he chose to make a extremely hard weapon to bear that only one (maybe more I'm just getting into expanded universe material) Jedi/Sith has had before. Exar Kun (are there any books that tell of him?

)

While Dooku had a unique design, Maul's Saberstaff would be quite a potent tool. Parrying the incoming attacks from Dooku while quickly sending the other one around to hit him woudl be a hard tactic to defend against it Dooku's case.

I'm having my doubts if almost any Jedi could beat him in a straight up Lightsaber battle 1 vs 1 fight. In Shadow Hunter, Maul says he would love to challenge Master Windu and he seemed pretty confident of victory. Windu is widely assumed to be 2nd only to Yoda in Lightsaber conflict.

Bah maybe it's just wishful thinking.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-06 04:15pm

Maul's maybe a better fighter physically, but that doesn't mean his capabilities with the Force are comparable. And when you start getting into more "advanced" or "powerful" level Force user combat, the Force plays an even bigger role (in various ways) - this is precisely why Yoda is such a fearsome combatant (same with Anakin) - their raw Force power is so great they can easiyl overcome any shortcomings of height, reach, physique, etc.

Maul fended off Obi Wan and Qui-Gon, but Qui-Gon was (IIRC the novel correctly) as being more or less past his prime. And w hile still a Padawan, Obi-Wan was close enough that he could quite probably have become a Knight. And ability wise, he was not strictly "average" or "weak" either.

Dooku fought off (consecutively) Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda - and his duels with them were much more visibly involved with the Force (by what we saw in the movie as well as what the novelization describes) than the TPM battle was. And while he did not fight them "simultaneously" as Maul did, he fought more intensively (more overt use of the Forcec, as I mentioned) and fought consecutive opponents without much pause - he didnt even start to get strained or desperate until Yoda showed up. Obi-Wan (as said) is not a "typical" Master/Knight, even if he isn't particularily "high" end, and Anakin is the freaking Chosen One (even as a Padawan, his raw power and abilities are easily comparable to a more advanced Force user.) both of which are NOT insignificant feats. And then there is Yoda, which is also NOT insignificant.

Given what is demonstrated of Maul, I find it hard to believe he could actually duplicate what Dooku did in AoTC if put in the same situation. (I suspect Yoda would bitchstomp him pretty rapidly.)

Much as I loathe Dooku and like Maul, I just don't think his physical prowess is going to be enough to overcome the apparent disparity in Force abilities, which are the real deciding factor.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-06 04:44pm

Darth Maul wrote:Judging by the fighting in Episode One and Episode Two, I would have to say that Maul is a much better fighter. You have to remember that he chose to make a extremely hard weapon to bear that only one (maybe more I'm just getting into expanded universe material) Jedi/Sith has had before. Exar Kun (are there any books that tell of him? )

Maul did a bunch of fancy moves, and his weapon is proably better for handling two jedi at once, but it would be very clumsy against a single jedi, as evidenced when Obi-wan cut the saber in half. With a single saber, he uttery sucked. The fact that Maul did a bunch of tricks doesn't mean he's a better fighter. Considering that Maul failed to beat Obi-wan, and Dooku DID beat both Obi-wan AND his apprentice...I say Dooku wins.

While Dooku had a unique design, Maul's Saberstaff would be quite a potent tool. Parrying the incoming attacks from Dooku while quickly sending the other one around to hit him woudl be a hard tactic to defend against it Dooku's case.

To attack with one end he always has to have the other end pointed AWAY from Dooku. So Dooku never has to defend against more than one saber at once. But Dooku was able to defeat one of the most powerful Jedi (Anakin), weilding TWO sabers and attacking with both at the same time. If he can block two incoming sabers at once, he can block rapid single strikes like Maul would give.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2004-10-06 05:07pm

One thing I like about Maul is he beat a Master using a physical move, stunning Qui Gon with his staff. Then using the force to beat Obi-Wan who being less experienced and younger with a Force move. Makes sense to me as Obi wouldn't be as attuned in the force or overall more susceptible to a force push than Qui-Gon. Question is how will Dooku fair against a blantant dark side user let alone another sith. He showed some good force skills so I doubt Maul's TK will affect the fight. I think Maul is an overall better fighter but can't overcome Dooku's both Light and Dark side knowledge.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-06 05:21pm

Meest wrote:One thing I like about Maul is he beat a Master using a physical move, stunning Qui Gon with his staff. Then using the force to beat Obi-Wan who being less experienced and younger with a Force move. Makes sense to me as Obi wouldn't be as attuned in the force or overall more susceptible to a force push than Qui-Gon. Question is how will Dooku fair against a blantant dark side user let alone another sith. He showed some good force skills so I doubt Maul's TK will affect the fight. I think Maul is an overall better fighter but can't overcome Dooku's both Light and Dark side knowledge.

Yeah, but his force attack on Obi did nothing but knock him across the room. If it had been Dooku, Obi-wan would have been lying on the floor, paralyzed by force lightning.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-10-06 09:33pm

The only fight Dooku had that means anything is the one with Obi-Wan. Whupping a padawan in Anakin and getting chased off like a bitch by Yoda isn't that impressive.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-06 09:40pm

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:The only fight Dooku had that means anything is the one with Obi-Wan. Whupping a padawan in Anakin and getting chased off like a bitch by Yoda isn't that impressive.

Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedi ever. He has a hard time controlling his abilities, but when he got mad, that was some pretty impressive fighting he unleashed on Dooku.

And he actually fought Yoda to a standstill.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2004-10-06 09:57pm

When Jedi and Sith fight, they fight on two levels right? They have the physical fight, and then their force powers suppress each others abilities. So wouldn't Darth Maul had been at even more of a disadvantage facing two Jedi at once?

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-10-07 01:28am

Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedi ever.

No, he had a great deal of potential, but at the time of the battle he was a n00b.

And he actually fought Yoda to a standstill.

Then ran away.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2004-10-07 02:41am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Then ran away.

Dooku's objective at the time was to get the fuck off the planet and he accomplished it, Yoda was the one that failed. The war motion was already set so he had no more purpose being there. Could also see Dooku getting impatient with the whole deal, almost saying in his mind how many Jedi are gonna try and slow me down type sigh.

I wonder if his ship was ready to leave or he purposefully put some smackdown on Obi and Anakin on purpose to further confuse the Jedi and possibly make more impact when Sidious' plans go through in Ep 3. He did kinda spare at least Obi, maybe some sentimental value in being Qui-Gons apprentice. Also had Anakin for the pickings but opted to force push him away.

Demandred · Post by **Demandred** » 2004-10-07 02:43am

It would have been a good fight to see. I think Maul would have been able to hold his own against Dooku because Maul would also be much more experience from the years after Episode 1 to Episode 2, thats if he doesn't get to cocky of course.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-10-07 03:01am

At first point i would have said Maul but logically speaking:

Obi won against Maul
Dooku won against Obi

So Dooku wins against Maul

Dooku uses a strange technique in wielding his lightsabre and while not as pretty as Maul's technique it was just as effective. Add more impressive force powers and Dooku shouldnt have much of a problem with Maul

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-10-07 03:13am

HyperionX wrote:Dooku will just shoot lighting from his fingers and fry Maul. Dooku wins easily.

In the Darth Maul comic force lightning doesn't appear to affect him anywhere near as much as it did Luke and Anakin.

Perhaps part of his training involved being bitchslaped by force lightning? Maybe Sidious needed a tarket to practice on?

Anyway, the comic made it seem like force lightning didn't hurt him that much and that he may have had experience in being hit by it. Being a very offenseive act force lightning would seem to be very dark side-ish so it might not be as effective on dark side users.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-10-07 11:24am

Has Dooku turned to the dark side yet? If not (it says Sidious just has his eye on him, not that he has recieved any training) Maul can actively supress his powers. Even if he had, he won't know most of the dark side tricks like the lightning and such because he hasn't been trained. So the fact that he is more experienced in the Force then Maul plays less of an active role then one would think.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-10-07 12:16pm

Ender wrote:Has Dooku turned to the dark side yet? If not (it says Sidious just has his eye on him, not that he has recieved any training) Maul can actively supress his powers. Even if he had, he won't know most of the dark side tricks like the lightning and such because he hasn't been trained. So the fact that he is more experienced in the Force then Maul plays less of an active role then one would think.

We saw Dooku use force lightening against ANkaion obi and Yoda in AotC.

As for my two cents: If it was just Sabre to Sabre I beleive Maul would win. Read the Shadow Hunter novel, here Maul holds off one of the Jedi order's leading swordsman while sitting on his speeder bike with this Jedi Master behind him

The facts as I see them:

1) Maul Schooled both Qui-Gon and Obi in TPM, he lost only due to sitting and gloating at Obi in the pit. At few points during to battle did Maul seem hard pressed or in danger.

2) Dooku defeated Anakin with force lightening, then Schooled Obi and Anakin with and held his own against Yoda. However IMHO I feele that Dooku was much harder pressed and closer to defeat through his battles than Maul.
though you could argue Dooku was facing vastly superior oppenents...

Well i can't decide... my gut tells me Maul's the bettter swordsman Dooku's force powers might pull him through.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-10-07 12:19pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Ender wrote:Has Dooku turned to the dark side yet? If not (it says Sidious just has his eye on him, not that he has recieved any training) Maul can actively supress his powers. Even if he had, he won't know most of the dark side tricks like the lightning and such because he hasn't been trained. So the fact that he is more experienced in the Force then Maul plays less of an active role then one would think.
We saw Dooku use force lightening against ANkaion obi and Yoda in AotC.

Yes, after 10 years of training. This takes place immediately after the battle of Naboo. No training.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-10-07 01:11pm

Ender wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Ender wrote:Has Dooku turned to the dark side yet? If not (it says Sidious just has his eye on him, not that he has recieved any training) Maul can actively supress his powers. Even if he had, he won't know most of the dark side tricks like the lightning and such because he hasn't been trained. So the fact that he is more experienced in the Force then Maul plays less of an active role then one would think.
We saw Dooku use force lightening against ANkaion obi and Yoda in AotC.
Yes, after 10 years of training. This takes place immediately after the battle of Naboo. No training.

Whoops your right.
In my just re-conisdered opinion

Darth Tyrannus' force powers might let him win against Maul

but run off the mill former jedi Dooku, Sliced and Diced IMHO.