What if Darth Maul had lived...

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Perinquus
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Post by Perinquus »

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:A saber-thug with no officially existing identity is great for covertly killing people and raising hell while you're making your way up the political ladder. However, when it comes time for the apprentice to step onto the galactic stage and help you start a civil war, scary looks and fighting skills aren't of much use.
And who's to say his looks are all that scary to a galaxy full of different species, and humans who are used to millions of different species. Would Maul look appreciably more frightening than a Wookie, a Gamorrean, a Noghri, or any of a thousand of other clawed, huge, carapaced, or otherwise formidable looking aliens? Excuse me if I doubt it.
GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:No, at that point you need an apprentice with an established reputation and political credibillity of his own. Someone like a charismatic maverick Jedi Master and nobleman, long known to disagree with the political establishment. And once you find him, you're not going to subject him to a duel with your fifty-years-younger thug, as if combat ability really decides who is more worthy. Palpatine isn't a Klingon.
And who says he needs Dooku for the figurehead who will attract the support of the Trade Federation and other disaffected groups? Dooku was alble to fulfill that role, but it could also have been done by another, non Force-using individual with charisma and political skills who was loyal to Palpatine, or who, if need be, operated with Maul closely overseeing things from behind the throne, so to speak.
GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Really, imagine Maul surviving Naboo, then coming home and managing to take out Dooku in a duel. What's Palpy gonna do? Send him on a political mission to gain the support of the Banking Clan with a rousing speech?
See above. Even if Maul couldn't do the job (something we cannot take for granted, since we really saw very little of Maul, and don't know what else he might actually be capable of), he could easily oversee someone who can do these things.
GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:If Maul had survived, Palpatine would have gotten rid of him one way or another. He had outlived his usefulness, and with the Rule of Two forcing him to choose, Palpy wasn't about to take him over someone as useful as Dooku.
I see no evidence that this is necessarily the case.
GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:And as soon as Dooku outlives HIS usefulness and becomes a potential rival, I'm guessing we'll see him put away in favor of a certain headstrong young idiot. And when Vader becomes disloyal and not worth the effort, well, then it's supposed to be Luke's turn. See a pattern here? Palpatine's apprentices are just pawns, chosen for their utility and dropped with no great sentiment.
True, but again, all you have is opinion that Maul had outlived his usefulness. I don't think the evidence bears this out. There is every appearance, in both the movie and the novelization (both canon), that Sideous sent Maul out in the full expectation that he could dispose of two Jedi - one of whom, after all, was merely a green apprentice. Sith, remember, tend to be individually more powerful than Jedi. For one thing, the Dark Side is a much quicker path to power, so a Sith advances far more quickly than a Jedi. Secondly, the Sith are far less restrained in their use of their powers. Thirdly, Sith appear to possess offensive skills that Jedi lack (e.g. Force lightning). And fourthly, Sith train in lightsaber dueling. I've read in many official sources that Jedi don't train in this very much, since after the Sith Wars they pretty much never face lightsaber wielding opponents. They train to fight people using blasters, and their swordsmanship skills are not as developed as those of the Sith, who train specifically to fight lightsaber wielding Jedi.

Sideous had every reason to believe Maul was powerful enough to take on a pair of Jedi and win, and in fact, he was very nearly correct. Maul was in control of the entire fight (until the last second when Obi Wan surprised him). He's never really hard pressed and in danger of losing, he never allows his two opponents to box him into a bad position, and he gives ground and holds them off until he maneuvers them into a perfect position to split them up so he can take them out seperately. His tactics are perfect. He does everything right for a single man facing two opponents, until at the very end, he relaxes his guard because he's got Obi Wan disarmed and thinks he's got him beaten, so he pauses to toy with him. That's the only reason he lost. He got overconfident and underestimated Obi Wan's resourcefulness, which allowed the Jedi to pull of a last second, unexpected victory. If Maul, instead of gloating, had immediately Force pushed Obi Wan off that stanchion (or whatever it was that he was holding, he would have beaten him without taking a scratch. I think that's exactly what Sideous was expecting to happen.
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Post by Darth Maul »

We must also remember that in Shadow Hunter Maul was dominating a fight with a Jedi master, who knew she had no hope, so she commited suicide in an attempt to take him with her. He also defeated another Padawan in that book. Obi Wan seemed to me a relativly experience Padawan quite possibly almost a Jedi Knight, while Darsha Assant was a "noob".
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Post by Lord Revan »

Darth Maul wrote:We must also remember that in Shadow Hunter Maul was dominating a fight with a Jedi master, who knew she had no hope, so she commited suicide in an attempt to take him with her. He also defeated another Padawan in that book. Obi Wan seemed to me a relativly experience Padawan quite possibly almost a Jedi Knight, while Darsha Assant was a "noob".
just to nitpick the jedi master was male
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LordShaithis
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Post by LordShaithis »

Perinquus wrote:And who says he needs Dooku for the figurehead who will attract the support of the Trade Federation and other disaffected groups? Dooku was alble to fulfill that role, but it could also have been done by another, non Force-using individual with charisma and political skills who was loyal to Palpatine, or who, if need be, operated with Maul closely overseeing things from behind the throne, so to speak.
If there were a better figurehead avaliable and Sidious were willing to use them, then logically he would have done so, regardless of who his apprentice was at the time. But a former member of the Jedi Council is tough to beat for a variety of reasons when it comes to what Palpatine needed in this case. (Not the least of which is the institutional blindness of the Jedi when it comes to the notion of Dooku being up to no good.) And anyway, having an apprentice AND a non-Sith accomplice would have required bringing a third person into the conspiracy, something I don't think Sidious would like. A third person who doesn't have a Force-user's touch for things like evading capture and resisting telepathy.
See above. Even if Maul couldn't do the job (something we cannot take for granted, since we really saw very little of Maul, and don't know what else he might actually be capable of), he could easily oversee someone who can do these things.
Even if Maul were Dooku's equal in political acumen and speaking ability, he's a nobody as far as the galaxy-at-large knows, so I doubt he would have been suitable. As for overseeing someone else, see above.
I see no evidence that this is necessarily the case.
Well it sure was convenient how things worked out for Palpatine, his old apprentice dying just in time to be replaced by one so suited to the tasks ahead. Between that, the way the chronology works out, Palpy's habit of grooming a new apprentice while the old one is still around, and the fact that very little seems to happen by accident where he's involved... Well, it adds up.
True, but again, all you have is opinion that Maul had outlived his usefulness.
Hell, go look at the "Maul vs Dooku" thread I started. It's very debatable whether Maul had any edge over Dooku even in terms of fighting skill alone. Dooku was simply much more useful than Maul, and the rules wouldn't let Palpatine have both.
I don't think the evidence bears this out. There is every appearance, in both the movie and the novelization (both canon), that Sideous sent Maul out in the full expectation that he could dispose of two Jedi - one of whom, after all, was merely a green apprentice.
I'm not saying Palpy was CERTAIN that Maul was going to lose. (Though he may have had a strong suspicion, precognition and all that.) But it was win-win for him. Send Maul down there. If he kills everyone, great. If he loses, great, Palpatine has a better potential apprentice waiting in the wings anyway.
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Post by Darth Maul »

just to nitpick the jedi master was male


Yep your right
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Post by Crazedwraith »

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:More appropriate, then, to say that his usefulness had been surpassed by that of another, and that the Rule of Two forced Palpy to choose.
The rule of two can't force Palpy to do anything. He can train anybody he wants at anytime he wants. If he does have more than one apprentice whos going to stand up and object?
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Post by Lord Revan »

He had outlived his usefulness, and with the Rule of Two forcing him to choose, Palpy wasn't about to take him over someone as useful as Dooku.
The Rule of two was made to prevent fighting inside the Sith. there's nobody who would prevent Palpatine for breaking it, but it's common sense not break the rule unless you have to
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