Maul vs Dooku

Darth Maul · Post by **Darth Maul** » 2004-10-07 01:29pm

But then you have to remember that Maul was trained to kill Jedi. In Shadow Hunter he was disgusted at such an easy mission and would rather have burnt the Jedi Temple down Yoda and all!

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-07 01:38pm

wautd wrote:At first point i would have said Maul but logically speaking:

Obi won against Maul
Dooku won against Obi

So Dooku wins against Maul

I see you completely missed what Jean Paul posted earlier in this thread (which is essentially the same thing I posted over on the "What if Darth Maul had Lived?" thread). Obi Wan killed Darth Maul because Maul relaxed his guard ofter he pushed Obi Wan into the shaft, figuring that now that the Jedi had been disarmed and was hanging over a deep shaft Obi Wan was no longer any sort of threat. So Maul stopped to gloat over his defeated enemy instead of finishing him quickly and efficiently as he should have done. That's the only reason Obi Wan won. He did not outfight Darth Maul. Even fighting at the very limit of his ability (and even just a bit beyong his normal limit, since he was skirting the edge of the Dark Side), Maul was outfighting him; his combat skills were better than Obi Wan's.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-07 04:52pm

I would also like to point out that in one of the Infinities comics, Maul, resseurected by cloning and memory-imprinting (how they got hold of the original mind I don't know), went head to head with a certain Dark Lord... someone he, uh, once almost killed before by vehicular ramming on tattoine, when said person was 9.

Maul thrashed him good. In the end though he lost through deux ex machina once again... Vader turned his back on Maul and thrust his lightsabre through his own body and into Maul. This didn't kill Vader because his body is cybernetic. Maul wasn't so lucky.

I'm not sure of the canon status of the infinities or if they have any canon status at all, but I thought I'd bring it up as a (possibly) relevant point.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-10-07 05:07pm

Darth Maul wrote:But then you have to remember that Maul was trained to kill Jedi. In Shadow Hunter he was disgusted at such an easy mission and would rather have burnt the Jedi Temple down Yoda and all!

Also in Shadow Hunter Maul defeated an other Master and Padawan, as well as some freak beast in Coruscants debths.

Maul seems to have more pure agression than Dooku. But you have to bare in mind that Dooku was at the rank of Jedi Master when he left the order, Maul would have been the equivilant to a Knight in terms to experience.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-07 05:09pm

One difference I think is that Dooku is calm and collected, and has this powerful charismatic presence that runs hand in hand with that.

Maul on the other hand is consumed by rage and hatred. Look at him baring his teeth like an angry dog.

Hard to tell which makes for the best fighter.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-10-07 05:11pm

In terms of using the Dark Side agression seems to tbe the best way to access the Force.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-10-07 05:34pm

wautd wrote:At first point i would have said Maul but logically speaking:

Obi won against Maul
Dooku won against Obi

So Dooku wins against Maul

That isn't logical, BTW. If a defeats b and b defeats c, it does not neccessarily follow that a defeats c.

After all, Luke won against the DS and the DS won against Alderaan, does it mean that Luke would win against Alderaan?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-07 05:37pm

Jean Paul wrote:I would also like to point out that in one of the Infinities comics, Maul, resseurected by cloning and memory-imprinting (how they got hold of the original mind I don't know), went head to head with a certain Dark Lord... someone he, uh, once almost killed before by vehicular ramming on tattoine, when said person was 9.

Maul thrashed him good. In the end though he lost through deux ex machina once again... Vader turned his back on Maul and thrust his lightsabre through his own body and into Maul. This didn't kill Vader because his body is cybernetic. Maul wasn't so lucky.

I'm not sure of the canon status of the infinities or if they have any canon status at all, but I thought I'd bring it up as a (possibly) relevant point.

Infinities is N-level canon. Sorry, gets you nowhere.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-10-07 05:40pm

phongn wrote:
wautd wrote:At first point i would have said Maul but logically speaking:

Obi won against Maul
Dooku won against Obi

So Dooku wins against Maul
That isn't logical, BTW. If a defeats b and b defeats c, it does not neccessarily follow that a defeats c.

After all, Luke won against the DS and the DS won against Alderaan, does it mean that Luke would win against Alderaan?

Another useful example is the rock/paper/sissors game.

By your logic since rock defeats sissors and sissors defeats paper, rock should defeat paper. It doesn't.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-10-08 12:14am

Or to actually apply this to one-on-one combat...

Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight, solidifying his claim to the heavyweight championship. He was soon thereafter crushed in two rounds by a young man named George Foreman. When Ali challenged Foreman, the conventional wisdom was that Foreman > Frazier > Ali, and that Ali was thus due to get annhilated. Of course, it didn't work out that way, and Foreman went down in the eighth.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-08 01:09am

Which is why Dooku wins because his Force capabilities are demonstrably superior to anything Maul has demonstrated or been even hinted at possessing in any source I am aware of.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2004-10-08 06:24am

Lord Pounder wrote:
Darth Maul wrote:But then you have to remember that Maul was trained to kill Jedi. In Shadow Hunter he was disgusted at such an easy mission and would rather have burnt the Jedi Temple down Yoda and all!
Also in Shadow Hunter Maul defeated an other Master and Padawan, as well as some freak beast in Coruscants debths.

Maul seems to have more pure agression than Dooku. But you have to bare in mind that Dooku was at the rank of Jedi Master when he left the order, Maul would have been the equivilant to a Knight in terms to experience.

Didnt't the Jedi Master in that book blow himself up with a speeder to try and kill Maul? Though he kinda admits he can't beat Maul, but not sure what type of Jedi he was, can't remember if he was mentioned to be good at fighting at all.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-10-08 04:38pm

Meest wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
Darth Maul wrote:But then you have to remember that Maul was trained to kill Jedi. In Shadow Hunter he was disgusted at such an easy mission and would rather have burnt the Jedi Temple down Yoda and all!
Also in Shadow Hunter Maul defeated an other Master and Padawan, as well as some freak beast in Coruscants debths.

Maul seems to have more pure agression than Dooku. But you have to bare in mind that Dooku was at the rank of Jedi Master when he left the order, Maul would have been the equivilant to a Knight in terms to experience.
Didnt't the Jedi Master in that book blow himself up with a speeder to try and kill Maul? Though he kinda admits he can't beat Maul, but not sure what type of Jedi he was, can't remember if he was mentioned to be good at fighting at all.

He was said to be one of the orders best swordsman although this was said from his Padawan's PoV who may not have the best perspective.

Darth Maul · Post by **Darth Maul** » 2004-10-08 05:18pm

I think they made a brief statement that he was on par with Master Qui-Gon. The Jedi in Shadow Hunter I mean.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2004-10-09 12:41am

Before leaving the Jedi Order, Count Dooku was said to be able to best Mace Windu in lightsaber combat. Mace, who in AOTC is supposed to be second only to Yoda. If Darth Maul was having difficulty with a Jedi like Obi wan, then he would stand no chance against Dooku's superior form and skill.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2004-10-09 01:38am

President Sharky wrote:Before leaving the Jedi Order, Count Dooku was said to be able to best Mace Windu in lightsaber combat. Mace, who in AOTC is supposed to be second only to Yoda. If Darth Maul was having difficulty with a Jedi like Obi wan, then he would stand no chance against Dooku's superior form and skill.

He wasn't having difficulty. I don't think it's up anymore, but Robert Brown had a play by play of the fight up at one time. Maul dominated the fight with Obi Wan. The only reason he got killed was that he complacently let his guard down after he had pushed Obi Wan into the shaft. Prior to that he was outfighting Obi Wan handily. The only effective blow Obi Wan managed to land in the entire fight was the strike that cleft Maul's lightsaber in two, and even that didn't Hamper the Sith at all. As I said before, Maul had Obi Wan beaten. Period. If he had simply finished him rather than stopping to gloat, Kenobi would have been killed.