Maul vs Vader

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-07 05:03pm

This premise is hella contrived but try to roll with it anyway please for the debate's sake: Maul's two halfs get collected at the bottom of the shaft by some part of the Naboo secret service (just imagine it has one), sowed back together, and he is put in bacta for the healing process to complete. Kept unconcious through drugs, he is ruled too dangerous to be allowed to wake up, so they freeze him in carbonite and forget about him for 30 years. Oops!

FF 30 years and some Imperial techs are looking throug the old SS vaults and archives on Naboo and hey presto, they find this horned guy frozen in carbonite... they thaw him out... and he's like what the fuck happened to me, where the fuck is everyone, so he starts scouting out his new surroundings.

FF 6 months, and a ship approaches Coruscant, with Maul on board, and he's come to challenge this cripple "Vader" he's heard about for the rightful place of Palpatine's right hand man.

Ok, now whut?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-10-07 05:10pm

As stated Vader is a cripple relying on major life support to keep him going. IN a battle he can't keep himself fiunctional and use the force to debilitate Mauls abilities. Vader is WTFPWNED!

Vain · Post by **Vain** » 2004-10-07 06:09pm

Lord Pounder wrote:As stated Vader is a cripple relying on major life support to keep him going. IN a battle he can't keep himself fiunctional and use the force to debilitate Mauls abilities. Vader is WTFPWNED!

Then again from what we've seen in lightsaber duels, the key to victory is not how many unassisted backflips you can do, but rather how strong you are in the Force. I don't think it would be much of a battle. Vader has no need or desire to toy with Maul as he does with Luke or Obi-wan. As formidable as Maul was, I think he would quickly be overwhelmed by Vader's mastery of the Force. The skills of either as a swordsman will be inconsequential.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-10-07 06:10pm

Vader would own him. Maul isn't as strong in the Force as Vader is.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-07 06:22pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Vader would own him. Maul isn't as strong in the Force as Vader is.

1: Proof?

2: Not entirely relevant even if so. People defeating others who are stronger in the force than themselves is fairly common. Strength in the force is not the be all and end all.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-10-07 06:23pm

Can you cite examples of a much superior Force user being beaten by a much inferior Force user?

EDIT: And don't list cheap shots, such as Maul's death or Palpatine's death. I want deaths or defeats that resulted from straight-out combat, not arrogance or overconfidence or what have you.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-07 06:31pm

Anakin getting made into an amputee by Dooku. He wasn't a full knight, but he was still the chosen one.

Vader vs Obi-Wan in ANH. The old man held Vader to a stalemate long enough, and Vader never actually beat him... Kenobi pulled himself into the Force. Deliberately, left himself open.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-07 06:33pm

Jean Paul wrote:Anakin getting made into an amputee by Dooku. He wasn't a full knight, but he was still the chosen one.

Vader vs Obi-Wan in ANH. The old man held Vader to a stalemate long enough, and Vader never actually beat him... Kenobi pulled himself into the Force. Deliberately, left himself open.

How is this proof?

Seriously find sourcews also within the EU because we can easily point out that ESB Vader showed much greater TK powers then Maul even began to demonstrate and could essentially have the walls kick Maul's ass before he cuts his head off by this logic.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-07 06:36pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Jean Paul wrote:Anakin getting made into an amputee by Dooku. He wasn't a full knight, but he was still the chosen one.

Vader vs Obi-Wan in ANH. The old man held Vader to a stalemate long enough, and Vader never actually beat him... Kenobi pulled himself into the Force. Deliberately, left himself open.
How is this proof?

Seriously find sourcews also within the EU because we can easily point out that ESB Vader showed much greater TK powers then Maul even began to demonstrate and could essentially have the walls kick Maul's ass before he cuts his head off by this logic.

How about you prove that Maul couldn't do the same thing?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-07 06:36pm

Jean Paul wrote:Anakin getting made into an amputee by Dooku. He wasn't a full knight, but he was still the chosen one.

Vader vs Obi-Wan in ANH. The old man held Vader to a stalemate long enough, and Vader never actually beat him... Kenobi pulled himself into the Force. Deliberately, left himself open.

Anakin didn't know how to control his abilities yet. We're talking about MASTERY of the force, not uncontrolled strength.

Vain · Post by **Vain** » 2004-10-07 06:38pm

Jean Paul wrote:Anakin getting made into an amputee by Dooku. He wasn't a full knight, but he was still the chosen one.

Vader vs Obi-Wan in ANH. The old man held Vader to a stalemate long enough, and Vader never actually beat him... Kenobi pulled himself into the Force. Deliberately, left himself open.

Vader was gloating. They weren't fighting, they were having a civil conversation. Obi-wan knew he couldn't defeat Vader. He was just trying to buy Luke and the other's time by distracting Vader.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-07 06:40pm

Jean Paul wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
Jean Paul wrote:Anakin getting made into an amputee by Dooku. He wasn't a full knight, but he was still the chosen one.

Vader vs Obi-Wan in ANH. The old man held Vader to a stalemate long enough, and Vader never actually beat him... Kenobi pulled himself into the Force. Deliberately, left himself open.
How is this proof?

Seriously find sourcews also within the EU because we can easily point out that ESB Vader showed much greater TK powers then Maul even began to demonstrate and could essentially have the walls kick Maul's ass before he cuts his head off by this logic.
How about you prove that Maul couldn't do the same thing?

Oh for fuck sake.

It's your onus to show MAUL has the same capabilities dumb shit.

Vader has shown to through multiple objects...Maul has by this standard shown one in the movies...so show some evidence and stop going "No, YOU SHOW PROOF!!!"

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-07 06:43pm

Vader was attacked by one Jedi, Obi-Wan, who was old and infirm, and he still couldn't defeat him for ages.

Vader was attacked in ROTJ by his own son - again a singular person, and soundly beaten.

Maul was attacked by two Jedi at once and fought both of them at once for many minutes. Realistically, most two vs one Jedi battles should result in the one dying quickly (two lightsabres coming at you from opposite directions, and yours can only be so many places at once). But the singular combatant in this fight not only didn't die, he turned the tables and killed one enemy, then defeated another and had him at his mercy, and could have killed him if he had wanted rather than waiting for him to fall.

Mutant Headcrab · Post by **Mutant Headcrab** » 2004-10-07 06:51pm

There was actually a Tales comic that had this match up. Some Palpatine supporters, who felt Vader unworthy of his position, tricked him to their monastery. There, they present a clone of Maul (somehow exactly like he was during Phantom Menace) and force Vader to fight him. It's a fairly even match, but Maul gets the upper hand and is about to strike the killing blow to Vader. The whole time Maul banters on about Vader being weaker because he was once a Jedi. Before he administers the final blow he asks Vader "What could you possibly hate to give you strength" (or something like that). As he rushes Vader from behind, Vader impales himself to get Maul. Vader turns to Maul and replies "myself."

It's a lot better than my craptacular explanation. As for this situation, I think Vader would win.

Vain · Post by **Vain** » 2004-10-07 06:59pm

Jean Paul wrote:Vader was attacked by one Jedi, Obi-Wan, who was old and infirm, and he still couldn't defeat him for ages.

Vader was toying with Obi-wan. He wanted to gloat. 'Now, I am the Master!' and all that jazz.

Vader was attacked in ROTJ by his own son - again a singular person, and soundly beaten.

His own son - another Skywalker and someone that he did not wish to harm besides.

Maul was attacked by two Jedi at once and fought both of them at once for many minutes. Realistically, most two vs one Jedi battles should result in the one dying quickly (two lightsabres coming at you from opposite directions, and yours can only be so many places at once). But the singular combatant in this fight not only didn't die, he turned the tables and killed one enemy, then defeated another and had him at his mercy, and could have killed him if he had wanted rather than waiting for him to fall.

You know why? It wasn't because he was more athletic than the other two. It was because he had Sith training and was, get this, strong in the Force. When he jumped Qui-gon on Tatooine, it wasn't 'Man, this guy had some kind of crazy ninja training' it was 'He was well trained in the Jedi arts'. Granted, Jedi arts can be taken to mean lightsaber training, but in the context I think he meant that Maul was powerful in the Force. [/i]

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-10-07 07:01pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Can you cite examples of a much superior Force user being beaten by a much inferior Force user?

EDIT: And don't list cheap shots, such as Maul's death or Palpatine's death. I want deaths or defeats that resulted from straight-out combat, not arrogance or overconfidence or what have you.

Pretty much every NJO death, Geonosis massacre, Daala vs Callista, Luke vs Palpatine on the Eclipse, the Jedi that died on Jaibam.

Plenty of examples of Jedi dying to non force users, which fulfils your requirements.

Incidently, I think Vader would kick his ass.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-07 07:47pm

Ender wrote:Luke vs Palpatine on the Eclipse,

Nitpick: Although Palpatine is more skilled, Luke has more raw potential. Anakin had more potential than anyone else before him, but Darth Vader remarks in Shadows of the Empire that Luke's potential dwarfs even his.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-10-07 08:54pm

Ender wrote:Pretty much every NJO death, Geonosis massacre, Daala vs Callista,

Were these lightsaber battles? I know on Geonosis Jedi were blasted, but none other than Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda engaged in lightsaber combat with another lightsaber-wielding opponent. Daala vs Callista clearly wasn't a lightsaber battle, correct? And I can't comment on the NJO deaths since I've never read the books.

Luke vs Palpatine on the Eclipse, the Jedi that died on Jaibam.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that due to the help of Leia?

Plenty of examples of Jedi dying to non force users, which fulfils your requirements.

Not really. I meant in lightsaber combat, and one-on-one.

Incidently, I think Vader would kick his ass.

I concur.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-07 09:39pm

In NJO, the Vong were (at the time) undetectable in the force to Jedi, and had no force powers. They killed a few Jedi in duels.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-10-07 10:40pm

okay. EU references for Jedi vader has slagged into the friggin Dark Woman.

The Dark Woman trained Aurua Sing, who routinely hunts and kills Jedi.

Vader hunted down and killed the Jedi Order, including Masters.

Anakin was cut up cause he was arogant. Vader is not normally arogant.

Vader has done things with the Force that only pale in comparison to epic-Sith stuff.

i.e
Vader was standing next to an airlock on the Tarkin in one of the comics (the Tarkin was a baby-death star about 50 times the size of Executor). An admiral decided to kill him. The engineering section of that level was empty. The Admiral blows the hatch. Hurricane+ force winds blowing against Vader. He calls on the Dark Side, pulls himself to the hatch, strainghts up, and walks back onto the Tarkin, ignores the vaccum of space, closes the airlock and repreasurizes the deck, and makes a mental note to go slaughter the admiral later.

Later on in that same comic, Vader was in his custom TIE, at full attack speed, and slammed into an ice-asteroid. Vader survived that, and being rather close to the Tarkin when is blew up.

Also, in the ESB novelization, when Luke decides to fall instead of join Vader, Vader inititally stops him and uses the force to cause winds so powerful they ignore the down draft in Bespin and reverse it and start to put luke back to the walkway, until Vader decides 'I'll get him later' and drops the winds.

In Shadows of the Empire, Vader takes apart building droids that are constantly being upgraded to his specifications, and Vader keeps them as a threat to him.

and if you want more examples of Vader's skill.... well, go read the episode 3 spoiler threat.

Maul is nothing next to Vader

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-10-08 12:00am

Praxis wrote:In NJO, the Vong were (at the time) undetectable in the force to Jedi, and had no force powers. They killed a few Jedi in duels.

Vong fought with lightsabers? Or some other weapons? And I would imagine since they are immune from the Force a Jedi couldn't predict its moves or sense incoming danger, eliminating that advantage.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-10-08 03:48am

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:
Ender wrote:Pretty much every NJO death, Geonosis massacre, Daala vs Callista,
Were these lightsaber battles? I know on Geonosis Jedi were blasted, but none other than Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda engaged in lightsaber combat with another lightsaber-wielding opponent. Daala vs Callista clearly wasn't a lightsaber battle, correct? And I can't comment on the NJO deaths since I've never read the books.

Nice try at moving the goal posts.

Luke vs Palpatine on the Eclipse, the Jedi that died on Jaibam.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that due to the help of Leia?

That was when he disrupted the force storm. He kicked Palpatine's ass on his own.

Plenty of examples of Jedi dying to non force users, which fulfils your requirements.
Not really. I meant in lightsaber combat, and one-on-one.

Look at what you said. I provided examples you asked for. Now "Well what I meant.." No. Quit moving the goal posts. You wanted examples of inferior force users defeating superior force users in "one-on-one" combat. I provided examples of this.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-10-08 04:35am

Solauren wrote: Vader has done things with the Force that only pale in comparison to epic-Sith stuff.

Which are questionably canon at best.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-10-08 05:04am

Darth Vader had to spend some time to kill an old and aged Jedi like Obiwan in ANH. He also had difficulty against a badly trained newbie jedi like Luke in ESB. Maul on the other hand took on two seasoned veteran Jedis in TPM and almost killed both of them. So in my opinion Maul wins this battle. Vader at his prime (as Anakin) was probobly much stronger than Maul but his subsquent injuries made him weaker.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2004-10-08 05:36am

Lord Pounder wrote:As stated Vader is a cripple relying on major life support to keep him going. IN a battle he can't keep himself fiunctional and use the force to debilitate Mauls abilities. Vader is WTFPWNED!

I don't see the issue, vader's part just aren't natural, I don't see any reason this is supposed to be debilitating, might give him in an edge infact.