US Elections Officials get International Advice

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US Elections Officials get International Advice

Post by Stravo »

U.S. gets election advice from outsiders
Thursday: 26 days to the election
Thursday, October 7, 2004 Posted: 7:26 AM EDT (1126 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States, accustomed to giving advice on democracy, is in the unfamiliar position of getting some from international election observers schooled in Tajikistan, Ethiopia and other emerging democracies.

Two observer groups have been examining U.S. voting systems for compliance with international standards for free and fair elections.

The very idea disgusts some Republicans, who say it sends a message of weakness and compromises U.S. sovereignty. (Special Report: America Votes 2004)

Some Democrats say the scrutiny is overdue.

Former President Carter, for one, has said some U.S. voting systems don't meet international standards "even as many other nations are conducting elections that are internationally certified to be transparent, honest and fair." (Disabled hail e-voting despite doubts)

The observers already have found problems typical in countries with far less than 200 years of voting experience.

The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), a 55-state security group, said ballot secrecy is at risk because of the way some overseas ballots are being handled.

The Bush administration invited the OSCE observers as part of a standing agreement among member states.

David MacDonald, a Canadian member of a team organized by the San Francisco human rights group Global Exchange, said observers were shocked to find that partisan officials run U.S. elections.

Requiring election officers to be nonpartisan "is as close as you can get in democratic or electoral terms to a universal norm," MacDonald said after visiting Missouri, where Secretary of State Matt Blunt, a Republican, is the chief electoral officer and a candidate for governor. "There are some very serious problems that need to be addressed."

Largest such effort yet
The two organizations' teams represent the largest effort yet by foreign observers to watch a U.S. election, though it's small compared to the armies of lawyers and volunteers recruited by the political parties and civic groups to watch the polls on Election Day, November 2.

The OSCE, which has assigned more than 100 observers to the task, declined to make any of them available for interviews before a news conference Thursday.

But it catalogued potential problems in a preliminary report issued September 28.

The report said touch-screen machines that don't print paper ballots for use during a possible recount could delay the election outcome beyond November 2 and create more, not less, controversy.

It faulted procedures with absentee and provisional ballots, cited reports of voter intimidation and disenfranchisement, and criticized moves by a few states to allow overseas and military voters to fax rather than mail completed ballots.

The report also noted that many of the reforms envisioned by an election assistance law enacted after the disputed 2000 presidential election won't be in place by Nov. 2, and raised concerns that the right to vote "may not be evenly applied or protected throughout the country."

Whether U.S. voting systems meet international standards has been the subject of intense debate since major weaknesses were exposed during the recount of presidential ballots in Florida in 2000.

United Nations guidelines call for an "independent electoral authority," and for systems that guarantee the will of the voters will be followed and counted equally. The OSCE specifies that vote-counting must be transparent and open to observation.

The observers' presence has drawn stinging criticism from some Republicans.

"What do foreign observers bring to American elections?" Rep. Jeff Miller, R-Florida, wrote to constituents. "We are not a country suppressed by tyranny and aggression; we are a free nation built upon a foundation of citizen democracy."

Democratic Party attorney Bob Bauer said the presence of foreign election monitors along with observers from civic groups will help the party ensure access to the polls. Some Democrats failed in an attempt to bring in U.N. monitors.

"We're all essentially trying to assure that the laws are followed and the rights of voters are respected," he said. "So we view them as doing work that is entirely compatible with our own."
This is really embarassing in part but at the same time illuminating about the things taken for granted in our election process and what we demand of other nations for a fair election and democracy.

BUt this statement made my blood boil: "What do foreign observers bring to American elections?" Rep. Jeff Miller, R-Florida, wrote to constituents. "We are not a country suppressed by tyranny and aggression; we are a free nation built upon a foundation of citizen democracy."

Hey ASSHOLE. It was YOUR fucking state that made a mockery of our last presidential elections and it looks like it won't be ready for this one either, you should be the LAST person talking right now. :finger:
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Post by Joe »

This is extremely humiliating and degrading. But it's better than another four years of "BUSH STOLE THE ELECTION" in case Bush wins Florida again.
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Post by Edi »

Actually, the Republican reaction is quite telling. Instead of saying "Sure, go ahead and take a look at our procedures", they get whiny and start pontificating about the US being the cradle of democracy and how dare anybody so much as suggest that anything is less than perfect, and if anybody does, they must be pinko-commie terrorist traitors. There is absolutely no reason to get angry if there is nothing to hide. Of course, an actual indepth, impartial analysis of the voting system would turn up all kinds of dirt on conflicts of interest regarding party officials (both parties, but Republicans more, I think) and voting equipment makers, election officiating etc. There have been occasional rumblings about it in the past four years, and every time they have been indignantly dismissed without analysis.

This attitude is no different than the one that causes the US annual report on human rights to be mainly a joke in the sense that the US is completely left out of the report. Sure, point the finger at everyone else (like the comparison of Finland to some Balkan countries on the slave trade issue, two years running now, juist because the CIA fuckers didn't even bother to ask our government about certain things), but how dare anybody suggest that the US investigate itself, everything is peachy on all fronts... :roll:

It's this "we are infallible" attitude that causes such contempt toward the American political system abroad and why references to American democracy are often laced with derision..

In light of everything that happened in 2000 and what I have read and heard since, my own opinion of the execution of the US election system is that it is deeply flawed, opaque and open to severe abuse without any appreciable risk of being caught in any kind of meaningful time.

As for Senator Jeff Miller, Strvao, I heartily echo your sentiment that he should just fuck off.

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Re: US Elections Officials get International Advice

Post by Jeremy »

Stravo wrote: Hey ASSHOLE. It was YOUR fucking state that made a mockery of our last presidential elections and it looks like it won't be ready for this one either, you should be the LAST person talking right now. :finger:
Ya, right. :roll:
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Post by RedImperator »

Edi wrote:Of course, an actual indepth, impartial analysis of the voting system would turn up all kinds of dirt on conflicts of interest regarding party officials (both parties, but Republicans more, I think) and voting equipment makers, election officiating etc.
HA! I would LOVE to see what international observers could dig up in Democratic fiefdoms like Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit.
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Post by Ender »

RedImperator wrote:
Edi wrote:Of course, an actual indepth, impartial analysis of the voting system would turn up all kinds of dirt on conflicts of interest regarding party officials (both parties, but Republicans more, I think) and voting equipment makers, election officiating etc.
HA! I would LOVE to see what international observers could dig up in Democratic fiefdoms like Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit.
Are you implying King Daley II won by less then ethical actions?
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Post by Stravo »

RedImperator wrote:
Edi wrote:Of course, an actual indepth, impartial analysis of the voting system would turn up all kinds of dirt on conflicts of interest regarding party officials (both parties, but Republicans more, I think) and voting equipment makers, election officiating etc.
HA! I would LOVE to see what international observers could dig up in Democratic fiefdoms like Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit.
Ahhh...Chicago, where even the dead can vote. It's a true bastion of democracy. :D
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Post by RedImperator »

Ender wrote:
RedImperator wrote:
Edi wrote:Of course, an actual indepth, impartial analysis of the voting system would turn up all kinds of dirt on conflicts of interest regarding party officials (both parties, but Republicans more, I think) and voting equipment makers, election officiating etc.
HA! I would LOVE to see what international observers could dig up in Democratic fiefdoms like Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit.
Are you implying King Daley II won by less then ethical actions?
I'm implying the Daley machine--and all the other big city machines--could teach election fraud tricks to Papa Doc Duvalier.
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Post by Edi »

RedImperator wrote:
Edi wrote:Of course, an actual indepth, impartial analysis of the voting system would turn up all kinds of dirt on conflicts of interest regarding party officials (both parties, but Republicans more, I think) and voting equipment makers, election officiating etc.
HA! I would LOVE to see what international observers could dig up in Democratic fiefdoms like Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit.
To clarify, afaik there are more ties between Republicans and the equipment makers and I was thinking about that when I posted, but the Democrats are no doubt quite as much or more accomplished in other areas.

In any case: :lol:

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Post by Joe »

As far as the election machines go, personally I'd just make the voting software 100 percent open source and that would pretty much be the end of it.
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Post by Edi »

Joe wrote:As far as the election machines go, personally I'd just make the voting software 100 percent open source and that would pretty much be the end of it.
Yes, it would, which makes it so very interesting why it is so vehemently opposed. They have that system in Australia, and it works wonderfully for them from what I've heard.

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Post by Lord Poe »

Joe wrote:As far as the election machines go, personally I'd just make the voting software 100 percent open source and that would pretty much be the end of it.
"Hey...who put that fart sound effect in there when I voted for Bush?"

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UN observers at the American elections?

Post by Norseman »

"You Americans have the greatest democracy ever, my brother is a great
Ju-Ju man and he can make the dead come up and dance, but he never get
them to vote!" African UN observer at the Chicago elections.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

I don't see what the huge falooting deal is if they do inspect our process. It's not like foriegn observers can really effect it in any way significantly.
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Post by salm »

Joe wrote:As far as the election machines go, personally I'd just make the voting software 100 percent open source and that would pretty much be the end of it.
why don´t they just let real poeple count the votes like they do in absentee ballots and pracitcally all other countries?
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Post by phongn »

salm wrote:why don´t they just let real poeple count the votes like they do in absentee ballots and pracitcally all other countries?
Error rate might be higher for manual counting ... and there are a lot of ballots to be counted that way.
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Post by Joe »

salm wrote:
Joe wrote:As far as the election machines go, personally I'd just make the voting software 100 percent open source and that would pretty much be the end of it.
why don´t they just let real poeple count the votes like they do in absentee ballots and pracitcally all other countries?
Why? What advantage does that have over a computerized system with open-sourced software?
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Joe wrote:
salm wrote:
Joe wrote:As far as the election machines go, personally I'd just make the voting software 100 percent open source and that would pretty much be the end of it.
why don´t they just let real poeple count the votes like they do in absentee ballots and pracitcally all other countries?
Why? What advantage does that have over a computerized system with open-sourced software?
Why use softeware? NZ has no need for a computerised voting system..of course, in NZ, we can count our ballots properly :wink:
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Post by Edi »

Joe wrote:
salm wrote:
Joe wrote:As far as the election machines go, personally I'd just make the voting software 100 percent open source and that would pretty much be the end of it.
why don´t they just let real poeple count the votes like they do in absentee ballots and pracitcally all other countries?
Why? What advantage does that have over a computerized system with open-sourced software?
It depends on what kind of balloting system you have. Ours cannot utilize machine reading, because in the polling booth there are lists of candidates grouped under party headings, and the voter is required to actually write the number of the candidate down on the ballot. If they are disabled or cannot for some reason write down the number themselves (a vanishingly small problem, really), an election official will assist them (election officials are non-partisan here). That kind of votes must be counted by hand, and so far it has worked wonderfully.

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Post by frigidmagi »

*Shrug* 6 of one, a half dozen of the other. Let them look, after all anything can stand improvment.

Now honestly, I think there are those who are taking it the wrong way. Having these guys here does not suggest we are a tin plate Republic incapable of handling our own shit. Our system has only lead to a single cival war, while governing a huge chunk of a continent. A rather decent triumph I think. If certain idiots want to sneer, well there are always people who want to pull themselves up by cutting others down. But let's be honest the system is not perfest and there is always a way to make it better.

This, to me, is more along the lines of a friendly visit. They drop in, have some tea, take a look around, point out a few things that need to be overhauled and some problems get fixed along the way. It's no biggie.

Besides, think of some the shit the Euros have pulled on each other, it's not like they're pure lily white, they learned this shit the hard way.
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Post by salm »

Edi wrote: That kind of votes must be counted by hand, and so far it has worked wonderfully.
yeah, same here. and it seems to work wonderfully about everywhere.
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Post by LadyTevar »

Actually, with a investigation being conducted into vote-buying currently in our southern counties, I find this ironic
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Post by Glocksman »

I think that our system could use several improvments.

1. Do away with the 'motor voter' law.

In addition to making it easier for noneligible voters (convicted felons, illegal aliens, fictious people, etc) to register, the law prohibits states from purging inactive voters from the rolls. This encourages Chicago style fraud by allowing the dead to vote.

2. Require picture ID when voting and proof of citizenship when registering.

This would reduce the chances of vote fraud by someone coming in and voting under someone else's registration. I have to show ID when buying booze, why not when I vote? The citizenship requirement would reduce the numbers of illegal aliens voting in states such as California.

3. Require a paper ballot.

This wouldn't eliminate fraud, but it makes it a lot harder than simply entering in some new data on a computer.

4. Restrict absentee ballots to those who are either handicapped or will not be in their district on election day.

A lot of election hanky-panky occurs with absentee balloting. From partisan 'helpers' eager to 'assist' voters in filling out the ballots to the dead voting by absentee and 'voters' whose addresses turn out to be empty lots, fraud with absentee balloting is a problem.

Any other suggestions?
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Post by Ender »

5. Remove the "straight party line" option.
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Post by Durandal »

Edi wrote:
Joe wrote:As far as the election machines go, personally I'd just make the voting software 100 percent open source and that would pretty much be the end of it.
Yes, it would, which makes it so very interesting why it is so vehemently opposed. They have that system in Australia, and it works wonderfully for them from what I've heard.
Once you implement such an efficient system for casting and tabulating votes, you make it easier to change the voting system. At that point, people start asking, "What the fuck do we need these elector guys for? The results are right here!" Questions like that might bring about demand for change in the voting system, which is the last thing that people elected by that system want.
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