ISD aft shielding

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-10-09 03:05am

Imperial Star Destroyer's have three large engines at their aft end. An Imperator must expell ions to move so I was wondering what kind of shielding the engines might have.

1. They might have ray shielding only. Lack of particle shields allow ions to escape.

2. There might be a hole in the shield that allows ions to exit the engine.

3. The shield is one way. It allows ions to exit but blocks both energy and physical attacks.

I am favoring number 3.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-10-09 03:07am

2 is right out. Try watching ROTJ sometime, you might learn something.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-10-09 03:13am

Actually using your brain and thinking might help, too.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2004-10-09 05:07am

Yeah, you big stupid pants! How dare you post a question on SD.Net! You should just telepathically zap that information out of our heads, like we all do!

Now go about your way.

(Psst... I think the answer will probably lean very heavily towards three. I don't know what crawled up Howie's or Spanky's shorts... I just hope it wasn't the same thing... ::shudder::...)

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2004-10-09 08:48am

I seriously doubt 3 is possible - otherwise, there would've been one of these one-way shields protecting the DS exhaust...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-09 08:55am

AMX wrote:I seriously doubt 3 is possible - otherwise, there would've been one of these one-way shields protecting the DS exhaust...

Remember the shaft was protected...it's why they had to use Proton Torpedo.

So I believe it's number 3...in terms of what is given.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-10-09 08:58am

Howedar wrote:2 is right out. Try watching ROTJ sometime, you might learn something.

Which scene ?

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2004-10-09 09:01am

Ghost Rider wrote:Remember the shaft was protected...it's why they had to use Proton Torpedo.

So I believe it's number 3...in terms of what is given.

It had ray shielding, but no particle shielding.
In terms of what is given, that would be 1.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2004-10-09 04:06pm

It had ray shielding, but no particle shielding.
In terms of what is given, that would be 1.

Assuming parity between a "small thermal exhaust port" and a rather not-small (pretty big, in fact) primary engine.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2004-10-09 06:05pm

I wonder what the Empire's control of shield geometry is like? I mean, they could have localised shield holes, the same size and shape as the engine bell openings. If the shield is coincident with the engine bell opening, then there's no opening for enemy fire to get in.

like this:

Code: Select all


shield _____      _____
           |     |
engine bell \___/

(working with Ascii art when the forum software doesn't use monospaced fonts is a right pain in the scrotes)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-09 07:32pm

actually the ion engine exhaust of an ISD could be more analogous to an ion cannon blast, which means that it would necesitate deactivating ONE kind of shielding.

Besides, even if ion engine exhaust were blocked by particle shielding (or even ray shielding for that matter) you only have to deactivate it when using the engines and for however long you use them (and only in the direction the exhaust is directed.) - its not really all that big a weakness - SW ion engines exhaust contain a shitload of energy (relatavistic steam of charged particles moving a multi-megaton starship at thousands of gees? Why do you think Imperial ships need such a fucking huge powerplant?) Anyhow, what this means is that its unlikely any projectile is going to have a chance to exploit the weakness anyhow.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-09 07:44pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:actually the ion engine exhaust of an ISD could be more analogous to an ion cannon blast, which means that it would necesitate deactivating ONE kind of shielding.

Not IF SW shielding is one-way.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-09 08:05pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:actually the ion engine exhaust of an ISD could be more analogous to an ion cannon blast, which means that it would necesitate deactivating ONE kind of shielding.
Not IF SW shielding is one-way.

Which is unlikely according to canon (Hoth, the exhaust port on the Death Star, the AOTC: ICS AT-TE entry, the fact that hyperwave and subspace communications are blocked by shields, etc.) You are of course more than welcome to try to prove me otherwise of course.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-09 08:08pm

Actually, why limit myself to canon? We already know from various official sources (EGW&T, Courtship of Princess Leia, etc.) that particle shields aren't one-way. I've never seen any direct evidence (at best mayhap circumstantial) that indicates any sort of "one way" effect exists.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-09 08:21pm

Nevermind, I forgot about particle shields and was thinking about ray shields.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-09 08:23pm

Its unlikely ray shielding is one-way, either.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-09 08:27pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Its unlikely ray shielding is one-way, either.

Why not? I've never seen any references for gaps having to be opened in shields to fire turbolasers.

And another quandry (only vaguely related) is if standard comms at indeed similar to beam weapons, how can they use them in battle? Do they have comm arrays which stick out through shields?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-09 08:33pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Why not? I've never seen any references for gaps having to be opened in shields to fire turbolasers.

Uh, how many force field effects do you know of are only one-way, exactly?

And another quandry (only vaguely related) is if standard comms at indeed similar to beam weapons, how can they use them in battle? Do they have comm arrays which stick out through shields?

Probably the same way they handle allowing physical objects through with particle shielding, they have to either open "gaps" in the shielding (which isn't impossible given that SW shields are made up of overlapping segments that can be independently manipulated and adjusted) to let the signal pass, or they have to briefly drop and then raise them. The arrays themselves might even be more lightly shielded or even unshielded under certain circumstances.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-10-09 08:56pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote: Why not? I've never seen any references for gaps having to be opened in shields to fire turbolasers.
Uh, how many force field effects do you know of are only one-way, exactly?

Shields in Star Wars based off the display on Padme's ship in TPM. It showed a sharply defined edge and a haze extending outwards from it.

Furthermore, the Droidekas indicate ray shielding atleast is one way. They clearly weren't dropping the shields each time because it takes a noticable amount of time for the shields to come up.

Probably the same way they handle allowing physical objects through with particle shielding, they have to either open "gaps" in the shielding (which isn't impossible given that SW shields are made up of overlapping segments that can be independently manipulated and adjusted) to let the signal pass, or they have to briefly drop and then raise them. The arrays themselves might even be more lightly shielded or even unshielded under certain circumstances.

The problem is the speed of shields coming up as we saw in TPM.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-10-09 09:24pm

Ender wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote: Why not? I've never seen any references for gaps having to be opened in shields to fire turbolasers.
Uh, how many force field effects do you know of are only one-way, exactly?
Shields in Star Wars based off the display on Padme's ship in TPM. It showed a sharply defined edge and a haze extending outwards from it.

How is that evidence for one-way sheilding? That more sounds like it illustrates the idea that SW shields disapate as they extend outward.

Furthermore, the Droidekas indicate ray shielding atleast is one way. They clearly weren't dropping the shields each time because it takes a noticable amount of time for the shields to come up.

It's more likely that Droidekas poke the barrels of their guns barely beyond the radius of their shields.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-09 09:27pm

Ender wrote:Shields in Star Wars based off the display on Padme's ship in TPM. It showed a sharply defined edge and a haze extending outwards from it.

Which scene?

Furthermore, the Droidekas indicate ray shielding atleast is one way.

Thats only one of several possible theories. Curtis has suggested others (such as sticking the barrels out of the shielding.)

They clearly weren't dropping the shields each time because it takes a noticable amount of time for the shields to come up.

Even disregarding the other interpretions Curtis has brought up, you wouldn't neccesarily need to turn it off completely to open a gap. Angling shields in such a way to create "cracks" in the shields could allow for firing out. Alternately, the interaction of shield boundaries has been known to create weak spots in shielding (such as in Tyrant's Test.)

]The problem is the speed of shields coming up as we saw in TPM.

So then ray shielding activates much more slowly than particle shielding (by orders of magnitude), despite no evidence for this fact (and the problems it woudl create with say, generation of Naboo and Gungan deflectors if not droidkea shields in the movies? Which brings up another problematical question, can one have the 'glow' in the absence of particle shielding, anyhow?)

And in any case, as already noted, this is assuming that "dropping' shields is the only mechanism by which firing through them is possible.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-10-09 09:43pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Ender wrote:Shields in Star Wars based off the display on Padme's ship in TPM. It showed a sharply defined edge and a haze extending outwards from it.
Which scene?

When they are escaping Naboo. HTere is a diagram of sheild strength showing the shield. It turns red and approaches closer to the center as shields drop, but the ammount of haze seems to remain constant, implying that is the volumetric effect and that there is a defined edge.

Thats only one of several possible theories. Curtis has suggested others (such as sticking the barrels out of the shielding.)

Which, as he notes has the problem of we see some kind of interaction implying the bolt passes through and that we cant' tell if the barrels do protrude.

Even disregarding the other interpretions Curtis has brought up, you wouldn't neccesarily need to turn it off completely to open a gap. Angling shields in such a way to create "cracks" in the shields could allow for firing out.

How do you angle a sphere?

Alternately, the interaction of shield boundaries has been known to create weak spots in shielding (such as in Tyrant's Test.)

Do you have evidence that they have more then one projector on there for them to create boundaries with?

So then ray shielding activates much more slowly than particle shielding (by orders of magnitude), despite no evidence for this fact

The Gungan shield also had particle shielding and that was slow to deploy as well.

(and the problems it woudl create with say, generation of Naboo and Gungan deflectors if not droidkea shields in the movies? Which brings up another problematical question, can one have the 'glow' in the absence of particle shielding, anyhow?)

If anyone could ever come to a concensus as to what the glow was in the first place we might be able to answer that.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-09 10:22pm

Ender wrote:When they are escaping Naboo. HTere is a diagram of sheild strength showing the shield. It turns red and approaches closer to the center as shields drop, but the ammount of haze seems to remain constant, implying that is the volumetric effect and that there is a defined edge.

So? We already kenw shields were a volumetric effect.

Which, as he notes has the problem of we see some kind of interaction implying the bolt passes through and that we cant' tell if the barrels do protrude.

Yet it does not discount the possibility either, does it? Visual evidence strongly indicates it in fact did poke the barrels out, and as for the "interaction" that could be due to the interaction of barrel with the ray shield - we know ray shields can "permeate" matter, including with the interactions - which is why we see blaster bolts bounce off of what looks to be perfectly normal ground.)

How do you angle a sphere?

By having a sphere that is composed of individual overlapping segments generated by mutiple independent relays, projectors, and generators. We do know they are capable of generating both "bubble" effects as well as "hull hugging" effects, and we know they CAN open gaps in shields (TESB and ROTJ are both examples of this.)

Do you have evidence that they have more then one projector on there for them to create boundaries with?

Have you ever seen a close up of the droideka (like the EP1 Visual dictionary?) It marks two "deflector shield projector" plates - one on either side of the reactor/repulsor bulb the legs are attached to (they extend outwards when the droid unfolds from its "rolling" position.)

Besides, when did the burden of proof shift to me alone, anyhow?

The Gungan shield also had particle shielding and that was slow to deploy as well.

You're not claiming that we can "ignore" official evidence because it appears inconsistent with the theory you're pushing, are you?

If anyone could ever come to a concensus as to what the glow was in the first place we might be able to answer that.

Why wouldn't it be particle shielding? If they can block ion cannon and particle beam shots (as well as other forms of harmful radiation such as alpha and beta particles), why not other atoms or subatomic particles or whatnot?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-10-09 10:34pm

Connor MacLeod wrote: So? We already kenw shields were a volumetric effect.

Yes, and this shows one with a defiend inner edge.

Yet it does not discount the possibility either, does it? Visual evidence strongly indicates it in fact did poke the barrels out,

Please provide said evidence as from my examination you cannot tell if they do or not.

and as for the "interaction" that could be due to the interaction of barrel with the ray shield - we know ray shields can "permeate" matter, including with the interactions - which is why we see blaster bolts bounce off of what looks to be perfectly normal ground.)

The blasted thing bounced after the shield fell, which makes it really hard to explain in a blaster bolt theory.

By having a sphere that is composed of individual overlapping segments generated by mutiple independent relays, projectors, and generators. We do know they are capable of generating both "bubble" effects as well as "hull hugging" effects, and we know they CAN open gaps in shields (TESB and ROTJ are both examples of this.)

Have you ever seen a close up of the droideka (like the EP1 Visual dictionary?) It marks two "deflector shield projector" plates - one on either side of the reactor/repulsor bulb the legs are attached to (they extend outwards when the droid unfolds from its "rolling" position.)

Those plates are also on unshielded droidekas, implying that the VD is incorrect. And even if it is right, that is two of them and your idea above (as I understand it) requires a large number.

Besides, when did the burden of proof shift to me alone, anyhow?

And exactly what part of your argument would you like me to prove to myself Connor?

You're not claiming that we can "ignore" official evidence because it appears inconsistent with the theory you're pushing, are you?

If it is inconsistant with the movies, yes. Canon wins all ties. The Gungan shield was slow to deploy and it was a particle shield Connor.

Why wouldn't it be particle shielding? If they can block ion cannon and particle beam shots (as well as other forms of harmful radiation such as alpha and beta particles), why not other atoms or subatomic particles or whatnot?

There's the possibility that its a physical thing and shields are some kind of plasma sheath, that it is the atmosphere being heated by the energy the shield is radiating, that it is just the air being pushed away by a shearing effect of the shields, that it is a naboo tech only thing, that it was a naboo atmosphere only thing, and a couple of other theories. Pretty much every idea for shield mechanics has a different one. And I'm yet to see anyone agree on what they are.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-09 11:24pm

Ender wrote:Yes, and this shows one with a defiend inner edge.

Care to be a bit more explicit? I'm looking at the diagram and I'm not seeing where this "defined inner edge" is supposed to be (assuming your interpreting the display right, which I am having doubts about.)

Please provide said evidence as from my examination you cannot tell if they do or not.

Sure.

The blasted thing bounced after the shield fell, which makes it really hard to explain in a blaster bolt theory.

Its there (I should know because I provided that image to Curtis when the movie came out.)

Notice the shield is in fact active in the background.

Those plates are also on unshielded droidekas, implying that the VD is incorrect.

Why? Just because the droideka does not deploy shields does not neccesarily mean they don't exist. Its also not impossbile to have left the projector plates themselves but remove the internal components. We have no reason to assume the VD is in fact wrong.

And even if it is right, that is two of them and your idea above (as I understand it) requires a large number.

How, exactly? And how large is a "large" number?

And exactly what part of your argument would you like me to prove to myself Connor?

I'm talking about YOUR theory. I've been pretty damn good about providing evidence when demanded, don't you think?

If it is inconsistant with the movies, yes. Canon wins all ties. The Gungan shield was slow to deploy and it was a particle shield Connor.

It is possible to interpret canon in more than one ways, even visual evidence. It sounds to me as if you're trying to suggest your interpretation of canon is the correct one, even though this is not strictly true. Need I remind you of the numerous ways in which it has been claimed that official evidence "conflicts" with the movies?

There's the possibility that its a physical thing and shields are some kind of plasma sheath, that it is the atmosphere being heated by the energy the shield is radiating, that it is just the air being pushed away by a shearing effect of the shields, that it is a naboo tech only thing, that it was a naboo atmosphere only thing, and a couple of other theories. Pretty much every idea for shield mechanics has a different one. And I'm yet to see anyone agree on what they are.

Yes, its possible. But that sounds much more complex than inferring they have particle shielding (which would make sense anyhow, since projectile weapons DO exist in Star Wars.)