Hey Look A Place to Plunder full of Ignorant Trekkies.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-03 06:02pm

Their version of Defiant Vs DS2 was, Defiant decloaks and fires while staying away from the super laser until the DS2 dies.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-03 06:03pm

TheDarkling wrote:Their version of Defiant Vs DS2 was, Defiant decloaks and fires while staying away from the super laser until the DS2 dies.

I'm sorry, but that's not ignorance. That's utter stupidity.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-03 06:07pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:Their version of Defiant Vs DS2 was, Defiant decloaks and fires while staying away from the super laser until the DS2 dies.

I'm sorry, but that's not ignorance. That's utter stupidity.

I agree. Perhaps this person missed the turbolasers and fighters that were also defending DSII. And it would be pretty damn easy for a ship like the Defiant to dodge the SL, anyway.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-03 06:08pm

Not when they are operating on the lasers cant hurt Feds startships idea, at least they admitted the SL would have an effect.

They dont know what the empires shields are so they assume something in the region of parity and then conclude that the Defiant avoids the SL and slags the DS.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-03 06:10pm

TheDarkling wrote:Not when they are operating on the lasers cant hurt Feds startships idea, at least they admitted the SL would have an effect.

They dont know what the empires shields are so they assume something in the region of parity and then conclude that the Defiant avoids the SL and slags the DS.

To be honest, I've never quite understood that idea. It would seem to me that if you TRULY believe that a SW weapon will have no effect on a SF ship, then you would HAVE to believe that the SL would have no effect on the said ship. If you are operating on the "either on or off" fallacy, then wouldn't you have to believe that the SL would not work? Mind you, I'm not saying that the "no lasers" argument works at all, but I really can't seem to work out that contradiction.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-03 06:16pm

Well the Enterprise said iot was immune to lasers is how they see it and they assume SW lasers are of the same power (having nothing else to go off) but since the super laser is far more powerfull it may have an effect.

They arent saying that lasers of any power have no effect just that shipboard lasers dont and they assume parity where they shouldnt.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2002-11-03 06:26pm

Alyeska wrote:Rather then going in and flaming them for being stupid, try educating them. They are apparently "new" to the debates and don't know the proper way to conduct it. Don't tell them which side will flat out win, just tell them how its done, give them places to look at the evidence, and give examples just to show them how it works. If you go in insulting them that they are wrong, they will simply ignore you. If you go in politely and show them the right way, but don't back down to their refusal (invariably anyone being shown the proper way to look at something will balk at first) and don't insult them yet.

The likes of Darkstar needs flamming, not everyone in general.

After reading some of their debates, I think educating them would be wasted.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-03 06:27pm

paladin wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Rather then going in and flaming them for being stupid, try educating them. They are apparently "new" to the debates and don't know the proper way to conduct it. Don't tell them which side will flat out win, just tell them how its done, give them places to look at the evidence, and give examples just to show them how it works. If you go in insulting them that they are wrong, they will simply ignore you. If you go in politely and show them the right way, but don't back down to their refusal (invariably anyone being shown the proper way to look at something will balk at first) and don't insult them yet.

The likes of Darkstar needs flamming, not everyone in general.
After reading some of their debates, I think educating them would be wasted.

We probably couldn't educate the whole of them, but the ones that come here would almost certainly be showing a willingness to learn. We could educate those pilgrims, in the hopes that they will turn around and convert the rest of the heathens at their universe-bashing site.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-03 07:38pm

Alyeska wrote:I actually saw an inventive tactic that involved the Defiant and a single Lambda shuttle to take out the DS2. Shuttle lands on the planet and the rebels take out the shield generator. Cloaked Defiant moves to DS2 once the shield goes down. Launches its two shuttles which enter the DS structure, then the Defiant flies as deep into the construction area as possible and opens fire tearing through internal structure to get the attention of Tie-Fighters. Shuttles reach the inside and get REAL close to the reactor and detonate explossives inside taking out the reactor.

Problem is that they have enough Ties available to them to harass the defiant and chase down the two shuttles. Once the shuttles arre done, recall all the ties and crush the thing. Besides, how big was that opening? Could the defiant even fit?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-11-03 07:48pm

Defiant can't fit.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-03 07:55pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Defiant can't fit.

Where did Rabid Trekkies get the idea that the Defiant is about the same size as SW starfighters? They ALL say that, or use arguments dependent on it, when they debate me. They don't even LOOK the same size.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-03 08:05pm

Ender wrote:Problem is that they have enough Ties available to them to harass the defiant and chase down the two shuttles. Once the shuttles arre done, recall all the ties and crush the thing. Besides, how big was that opening? Could the defiant even fit?

As I said, the Defiant gets the Tie's attention to keep them away from the shuttles. The whole thing is the Defiant approaches CLOAKED. The Defiant goes to the section of the DS2 still under contruction and starts blasting its way inside of the DS with its PPCs.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-03 08:06pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Defiant can't fit.

Can't fit what? Can't fit the shaft? Never said it could, thats why I mentioend explossive filled SHUTTLES. I said the Defiant would head to the section of the DS still under construction and move into the deepest crevice it could and start blasting its way through the DS. Internal structure likely isn't optimized for dealing with weapon damage. Something like this would get the Ties attention and there probably wouldn't be anyone to go after the Shuttles.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-03 08:18pm

Alyeska wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Defiant can't fit.
Can't fit what? Can't fit the shaft? Never said it could, thats why I mentioend explossive filled SHUTTLES. I said the Defiant would head to the section of the DS still under construction and move into the deepest crevice it could and start blasting its way through the DS. Internal structure likely isn't optimized for dealing with weapon damage. Something like this would get the Ties attention and there probably wouldn't be anyone to go after the Shuttles.

Can the SHUTTLES fit?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-03 08:22pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Defiant can't fit.
Can't fit what? Can't fit the shaft? Never said it could, thats why I mentioend explossive filled SHUTTLES. I said the Defiant would head to the section of the DS still under construction and move into the deepest crevice it could and start blasting its way through the DS. Internal structure likely isn't optimized for dealing with weapon damage. Something like this would get the Ties attention and there probably wouldn't be anyone to go after the Shuttles.
Can the SHUTTLES fit?

LOL, they certainly can. The Type-10 shuttles carried by the Defiant are no more then 10 meters long. Thats just a wee bit smaller then the Falcon.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-03 08:32pm

As I said, they're idiots.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-11-03 08:48pm

I think the shuttles may be too unmanuverable to make it into core, it took a lot a manuverablity for the falcon to make it to the core(and it almost didn't, it lost it's comm(?) dish) and I've never seen a Shuttle able to barrel roll like that.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-03 09:00pm

Thread has been deleted

And its been noted, A moving ship is easily dected VIA Heat-trace, cloacked or not

Unless its a magic cloak that makes the unverse move with it or absolute cloak in which case its blind

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-03 10:28pm

anarchistbunny wrote:I think the shuttles may be too unmanuverable to make it into core, it took a lot a manuverablity for the falcon to make it to the core(and it almost didn't, it lost it's comm(?) dish) and I've never seen a Shuttle able to barrel roll like that.

It took a lot of manueverability while moving at such high speeds.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-03 10:32pm

Given its high value, the Empire would almost certainly have a CGT array active in the area.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-03 10:35pm

Alyeska wrote:I actually saw an inventive tactic that involved the Defiant and a single Lambda shuttle to take out the DS2. Shuttle lands on the planet and the rebels take out the shield generator. Cloaked Defiant moves to DS2 once the shield goes down. Launches its two shuttles which enter the DS structure, then the Defiant flies as deep into the construction area as possible and opens fire tearing through internal structure to get the attention of Tie-Fighters. Shuttles reach the inside and get REAL close to the reactor and detonate explossives inside taking out the reactor.

How is that inventive? It's the exact same plan the Rebels used, except with the Defiant instead of a swarm of Rebel fighters as the DS2 attack force. It's even less likely to succeed, since it is completely predicated upon the assumption that the Imps can't pick up the cloaked ship (at least the Rebels came with enough force that secrecy was only required for one half of their operation, not both).

Besides, it also presumes that shuttles carry enough armament to take out the reactor despite whatever armour and shielding it may have, and 100% of the TIE fighters will go after the Defiant rather than splitting up and going after BOTH intruder forces. Remember that they didn't even bother with proton torpedoes because they would have been useless, and shuttles don't carry a lot of firepower (even by ST standards).

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-03 11:00pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I actually saw an inventive tactic that involved the Defiant and a single Lambda shuttle to take out the DS2. Shuttle lands on the planet and the rebels take out the shield generator. Cloaked Defiant moves to DS2 once the shield goes down. Launches its two shuttles which enter the DS structure, then the Defiant flies as deep into the construction area as possible and opens fire tearing through internal structure to get the attention of Tie-Fighters. Shuttles reach the inside and get REAL close to the reactor and detonate explossives inside taking out the reactor.
How is that inventive? It's the exact same plan the Rebels used, except with the Defiant instead of a swarm of Rebel fighters as the DS2 attack force. It's even less likely to succeed, since it is completely predicated upon the assumption that the Imps can't pick up the cloaked ship (at least the Rebels came with enough force that secrecy was only required for one half of their operation, not both).

Besides, it also presumes that shuttles carry enough armament to take out the reactor despite whatever armour and shielding it may have, and 100% of the TIE fighters will go after the Defiant rather than splitting up and going after BOTH intruder forces. Remember that they didn't even bother with proton torpedoes because they would have been useless, and shuttles don't carry a lot of firepower (even by ST standards).

I am quite aware of the downsides of the tactic. Its been around long enough that most of the possible mission faliures were mapped out.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-04 01:16am

Alyeska wrote: I am quite aware of the downsides of the tactic. Its been around long enough that most of the possible mission faliures were mapped out.

So, why did you call it "inventive?"

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-04 01:26pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote: I am quite aware of the downsides of the tactic. Its been around long enough that most of the possible mission faliures were mapped out.
So, why did you call it "inventive?"

Because it has a better chance at sucess then a direct assault.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2002-11-04 02:23pm

Darth Wong wrote:Besides, it also presumes that shuttles carry enough armament to take out the reactor despite whatever armour and shielding it may have, and 100% of the TIE fighters will go after the Defiant rather than splitting up and going after BOTH intruder forces. Remember that they didn't even bother with proton torpedoes because they would have been useless, and shuttles don't carry a lot of firepower (even by ST standards).

Hmm... maybe they were thinking about a warp core explosion, ST ships make nice fireworks !