B5 superweapons vs. Death Star

[seanrobertson]

And now, a word from our meteorologist Sean
on the bullshit storms he's facing from fanatical
Babylon 5 fans...

Okay. I've tried to break it down to something
relatively simple, and this is what I've come up
with.

The RFs (rabid fivers) have essentially given
up on the aired canon altogether. They've
set up positions behind a board game called
B5Wars.

B5Wars is official material. JMS wrote the
forward for some of these materials and
declared it "canon" (though not necessarily
in those words), though when there is
a direct contradiction between the TV show
and the B5Wars "books," the show wins.
That, to me, means it's official. Or
conditionally canon--whatever the fuck.
Doesn't really matter.

Anyway, in a massive appeal to ignorance,
the RFs claim that, because the effects of
the Vorlon and Shadow planet killers are
somewhat ambiguous (a position I do not
agree with), there can be no contradiction
with B5Wars materials. Those materials
state that a Vorlon planet killer can "crack"
a Jupiter-sized planet. Therefore, they
conclude, geniune planet-cracking is "canon."

I am getting really tired of hearing the
same shit over and over again. It's a shame,
too: there are a number of worthwhile people
at SB.com. But the loudest, invariably the
dumbest, seem to be legion. They of course
don't want to come to this bigger lake because
"Wong won't respect the canon" or the like.
Or we're all insane Warsies. Take your pick...

I would like a rational discussion of these superweapons,
just as Michael described in his planet killer essay. I'd be
happy to play Fiver's advocate, since I'm currently embroiled
in a no. of related topics over at Spacebattles (and will be
receiving these revelations from the mouth of babes as
we speak ). After hearing these cowardly little clowns
talk shit about Babtech, about Stardestroyer.net, and
about Dr. Saxton, I'm hankering for some real fucking
smackdown.

[Sea Skimmer]

Given that B5 super weapons don't seem to be able to even wipe out a planets surface, where as the Death Star is meant to withstand a large scale attack by vessels which can, IE more then one star destroyer, The Death Star would win easily. If the superlaser doesn't get em, then the surface turbolasers will.

[Darth Wong]

You can "crack" a planet with relatively small energy cost. This does not imply the ability to overcome its gravitational potential energy deficit and blow it apart, Death Star-style.

If their entire argument is based upon the semantics of "cracking open a planet", they're fucked. If you crack a planet in half, you'll kill everyone on the surface, but the two halves will simply slam back together again from gravity. And (here's the fun part) the energy requirement of this process is zero, since the final energy state of the planet is the same as its initial state.

PS. Why the fuck are they too stupid to notice things like this? Are they allergic to elementary thermodynamics or something?

[Stormbringer]

PS. Why the fuck are they too stupid to notice things like this? Are they allergic to elementary thermodynamics or something?

They probably are. I've seen some of those arguements and a lot of them are allergic to logic and scientific analysis. They're rabid fivers, same as rabid trekkies, just a different show.

The material maybe canon their interpretation are pure fiver wank. They take any refernce, find the most favorable interpretation and then increase it by and order of magnitude. It's fuzzy math, sloppy calcs, and intilectual laziness at it's worst.

[Howedar]

Do NOT get me started on their interpertation of the Triad...

[Shinova]

The Vorlon Planet Killer has completely destroyed at least one or two planets in season 4 (The TV show). So they don't just crack the planet.

The Shadow Planet Killer doesn't blow a planet outright but bombs it to death. Wasn't it said directly in the show that the missiles fired were gigaton range? And there's that bit where Sheridan's fleet was caught inside the SPK and their power got drained. They could still move around (A few ships fly in to intercept missiles headed for Sheridan's Whitestar), but they couldn't fire weapons. Marcus also said they would all freeze to death or something in a certain amount of time.

This third point is kinda flaky: The SPKs are also said to hide their actual physical structure in hyperspace. The one in "Call to Arms" says otherwise, but that SPK was built by the Drakh, who really had no idea what they were doing when they built the thing. Is this true?

[XaLEv]

Do NOT get me started on their interpertation of the Triad...

Heheh, DAMN that was fun!

[Enlightenment]

This third point is kinda flaky: The SPKs are also said to hide their actual physical structure in hyperspace. The one in "Call to Arms" says otherwise, but that SPK was built by the Drakh, who really had no idea what they were doing when they built the thing. Is this true?

Go digging on Hyperion or Google groups. JMS specifically stated that the ACTA missile swarm was identical to the swarms used by the Shadows themselves.

[Shinova]

This third point is kinda flaky: The SPKs are also said to hide their actual physical structure in hyperspace. The one in "Call to Arms" says otherwise, but that SPK was built by the Drakh, who really had no idea what they were doing when they built the thing. Is this true?

Go digging on Hyperion or Google groups. JMS specifically stated that the ACTA missile swarm was identical to the swarms used by the Shadows themselves.

I don't mean the missiles, I mean the actually skeleton-like superstructure that the Death Cloud is built on. Does it stay in normalspace or is it hidden away in hyperspace?

[Shinova]

Or are you saying swarm = SPK?

[Enlightenment]

Or are you saying swarm = SPK?

Yep.

[Darth Wong]

The Vorlon Planet Killer has completely destroyed at least one or two planets in season 4 (The TV show). So they don't just crack the planet.

Did we see this happen, or was it another one of those "interpret from dialogue" things?

This third point is kinda flaky: The SPKs are also said to hide their actual physical structure in hyperspace. The one in "Call to Arms" says otherwise, but that SPK was built by the Drakh, who really had no idea what they were doing when they built the thing. Is this true?

Not in my recollection. IIRC, Sheridan said that one of the Shadow planet-killers was left behind, and the Drakh knew how to operate it. It was never even hinted that they actually knew how to build one (which would explain why they never built another).

[Tsyroc]

Not in my recollection. IIRC, Sheridan said that one of the Shadow planet-killers was left behind, and the Drakh knew how to operate it. It was never even hinted that they actually knew how to build one (which would explain why they never built another).

The Drakh were finishing one up in one of the post-series books. I don't recall which book it was, but most of the books after the series are based on JMS outlines so they may be considered canon. Still, I'm not sure they knew how to build one from scratch or if they knew how to opperated the equipment left behind to finish building one that was already started.

[Shinova]

The Vorlon Planet Killer has completely destroyed at least one or two planets in season 4 (The TV show). So they don't just crack the planet.

Did we see this happen, or was it another one of those "interpret from dialogue" things?

This third point is kinda flaky: The SPKs are also said to hide their actual physical structure in hyperspace. The one in "Call to Arms" says otherwise, but that SPK was built by the Drakh, who really had no idea what they were doing when they built the thing. Is this true?

Not in my recollection. IIRC, Sheridan said that one of the Shadow planet-killers was left behind, and the Drakh knew how to operate it. It was never even hinted that they actually knew how to build one (which would explain why they never built another).

I won't argue against your second point cause it's probably right, but the first point I'll say something about.

I believe it was Ivanova, or someone like that, who came upon a system visited by the Vorlons. The dialogue that followed was given over comm, and she (whoever it was) said that the planet was gone, as if it were never there in the first place, or something like that.

Someone should go to some official-level B5 sites, go to Episode guides, and look this up I think.

[Master of Ossus]

The Vorlon Planet Killer has completely destroyed at least one or two planets in season 4 (The TV show). So they don't just crack the planet.

The Shadow Planet Killer doesn't blow a planet outright but bombs it to death. Wasn't it said directly in the show that the missiles fired were gigaton range? And there's that bit where Sheridan's fleet was caught inside the SPK and their power got drained. They could still move around (A few ships fly in to intercept missiles headed for Sheridan's Whitestar), but they couldn't fire weapons. Marcus also said they would all freeze to death or something in a certain amount of time.

This third point is kinda flaky: The SPKs are also said to hide their actual physical structure in hyperspace. The one in "Call to Arms" says otherwise, but that SPK was built by the Drakh, who really had no idea what they were doing when they built the thing. Is this true?

The VPK has never been shown to destroy a planet. Other references clearly mentioned survivors in need of atmospheric starships to assist them, following an attack by the VPK. That is inconsistent even with planet cracking. The SPK has been stated to have weapons that are in the gigaton range, but it's total demonstrated firepower is approximately equivalent with a BDZ that ONE Imperator class Star Destroyer can accomplish. The "energy drain" of the SPK is also stupid. Is the SPK able to absorb energy indefinitely? The energy has to go somewhere, and will likely eventually overload the SPK's ability to absorb energy. Finally, the SPK was left behind by the Shadows. It has been stated repeatedly on the show that the Shadows left much of their old equipment behind when they left the Galaxy, and that it fell into the hands of their allies and servants (like the Drakh).

[Shinova]

EDIT: The planet the Vorlons blew away could've been done through repeated bombings if the beam was too weak to fully blow away a planet. But I don't think the Vorlons would build a planet-killing weapon that requires several shots to kill a planet. It'd be like building a Death Star that worked by chipping away chunks of the planet.

But that's speculation. The first half of this post is what's really important though.

[Tsyroc]

I remember the Vorlon Planetkiller flying through asteroids (along with its escort fleet) supposedly after it destroyed a planet.

It was never actually shown destroying a planet but I think we were supposed to get the impressiong that it was getting all Death Star on their ass.

[Shinova]

The Vorlon Planet Killer has completely destroyed at least one or two planets in season 4 (The TV show). So they don't just crack the planet.

The Shadow Planet Killer doesn't blow a planet outright but bombs it to death. Wasn't it said directly in the show that the missiles fired were gigaton range? And there's that bit where Sheridan's fleet was caught inside the SPK and their power got drained. They could still move around (A few ships fly in to intercept missiles headed for Sheridan's Whitestar), but they couldn't fire weapons. Marcus also said they would all freeze to death or something in a certain amount of time.

This third point is kinda flaky: The SPKs are also said to hide their actual physical structure in hyperspace. The one in "Call to Arms" says otherwise, but that SPK was built by the Drakh, who really had no idea what they were doing when they built the thing. Is this true?

The VPK has never been shown to destroy a planet. Other references clearly mentioned survivors in need of atmospheric starships to assist them, following an attack by the VPK. That is inconsistent even with planet cracking. The SPK has been stated to have weapons that are in the gigaton range, but it's total demonstrated firepower is approximately equivalent with a BDZ that ONE Imperator class Star Destroyer can accomplish. The "energy drain" of the SPK is also stupid. Is the SPK able to absorb energy indefinitely? The energy has to go somewhere, and will likely eventually overload the SPK's ability to absorb energy. Finally, the SPK was left behind by the Shadows. It has been stated repeatedly on the show that the Shadows left much of their old equipment behind when they left the Galaxy, and that it fell into the hands of their allies and servants (like the Drakh).

How much damage does a few gigatons actually do? The missiles the SPK fired dug into the planet, then exploded, not exploded on the surface.

If a planet's surface was blown outward, gravity would pull it back together into something slightly resembling its former self.

But the seemingly intact surface of Daltron 7 contradicts this....


Why am I continuously contradicting myself!?

*Smacks self repeatedly with a Darth Vader plush toy*

[Master of Ossus]

I remember the Vorlon Planetkiller flying through asteroids (along with its escort fleet) supposedly after it destroyed a planet.

It was never actually shown destroying a planet but I think we were supposed to get the impressiong that it was getting all Death Star on their ass.

The asteroids it was flying through may have been there before the planet was destroyed. In fact, their relative velocity is far too low to have escaped the gravity of an Earth-type planet. See Mike's excellent discussion of this incident on his Planet Killer page.

[Shinova]

I remember the Vorlon Planetkiller flying through asteroids (along with its escort fleet) supposedly after it destroyed a planet.

It was never actually shown destroying a planet but I think we were supposed to get the impressiong that it was getting all Death Star on their ass.

The asteroids it was flying through may have been there before the planet was destroyed. In fact, their relative velocity is far too low to have escaped the gravity of an Earth-type planet. See Mike's excellent discussion of this incident on his Planet Killer page.

Could the Vorlon fleet have been flying in the same direction the asteroids were? That might make the asteroids seem to have too low of a velocity.

[Master of Ossus]

How much damage does a few gigatons actually do? The missiles the SPK fired dug into the planet, then exploded, not exploded on the surface.

If a planet's surface was blown outward, gravity would pull it back together into something slightly resembling its former self.

But the seemingly intact surface of Daltron 7 contradicts this....


Why am I continuously contradicting myself!?

*Smacks self repeatedly with a Darth Vader plush toy*

A few gigatons will do tremendous damage to the surface of a planet, eliminating all complex life in a considerable area (small American states). Several of these weapons would be enough to destroy civilization on a particular planet. It would take thousands of such weapons to eliminate complex life on a planet (ie. what the SPK cranks out, according to dialogue which we have no reason to doubt). However, such weapons will not have enough energy to damage the structure of a planet. The conclusion is that the SPK cannot destroy a planet in the traditional, DS sense of the word. All of this is supported by Daltron 7's appearance following the SPK's bombardment.

[Durandal]

If their entire argument is based upon the semantics of "cracking open a planet", they're fucked. If you crack a planet in half, you'll kill everyone on the surface, but the two halves will simply slam back together again from gravity. And (here's the fun part) the energy requirement of this process is zero, since the final energy state of the planet is the same as its initial state.

The work-energy theorem only applies in the absence of external forces, though. In this case, the external force is gravity.

But, if this was indeed the case, it would still be impossible to derive any energy estimates, since the net change in energy state is zero.

[Darth Wong]

The work-energy theorem only applies in the absence of external forces, though. In this case, the external force is gravity.

True enough, but with no specified displacement, even that doesn't really mean anything. How do you "crack" a largely gaseous or liquid body anyway?

But, if this was indeed the case, it would still be impossible to derive any energy estimates, since the net change in energy state is zero.

I suppose there would be some slight warming from work-heating alone, but that is not quantified in the vague description.

[Master of Ossus]

True enough, but with no specified displacement, even that doesn't really mean anything. How do you "crack" a largely gaseous or liquid body anyway?

Freeze it, then crack it. Clearly the ability of B5 to move heat energy away from a planet is IMMENSE.

[Durandal]

True enough, but with no specified displacement, even that doesn't really mean anything. How do you "crack" a largely gaseous or liquid body anyway?

That was my point. We've got no idea what the initial kinetic energy state change was, only that it has to be below 11.2km/s, assuming an Earth-like planet.

I suppose there would be some slight warming from work-heating alone, but that is not quantified in the vague description.

Well, I guess if I took a pick-axe and slammed it into the ground, I've "cracked the planet" too. :)