Forceusers Vs. The Federation

[SirNitram]

Okay. Ship and army wise, the Empire can wipe the Federation off it's shoe. But can a handful of Jedi or Sith take down the UFP? Don't worry about reasons.. Assume the Force is guiding them to it for whatever reason in the grand scheme... And evaluate.

Jedi: The power to cloud men's minds, trick them, and evade detection will make them able to avoid human guards completely. Their ability to block and deflect beam weaponry means phaser-equipped guards aren't a problem. But they suffer the problem of assassins in the Roman Empire: Killing the man at the top doesn't do much except cause brief commotion, there are those below with power.

Sith: Here is where it is. These guys are capable of damn near anything: Not only do they have combat capabilities greater than the Jedi, their mind control is even more complete. A deranged clone of a Jedi Master could hold the entire crew(55,000 men) in utter thrall, total control. The Emporer boosted his armies and navies from afar without large efforts through his mastery of hte Force. He could even bend the wills of billions of people when he buried the SSD Lusankya under Coruscant's streets.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Jedi, very likely.
The Sith, no doubt.
One slicer could also do it though.

[neoolong]

I don't know. If it's just a handful you run the risk of someone just saying fuck it and bomb the area they are in. Unless the force users are smart and be all stealthy like. If the force users are smart they could do it.

By the way, this is a bit off topic but I was wondering if there are any force powers that the Jedi can use but the Sith cannot?

[Howedar]

The danger of a Sith or Jedi against a handful of Redshirts is that since phaser fire can go on for up to a second or so, the Jedi must continue to block the beam, leaving him vulnerable.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Okay. Ship and army wise, the Empire can wipe the Federation off it's shoe. But can a handful of Jedi or Sith take down the UFP? Don't worry about reasons.. Assume the Force is guiding them to it for whatever reason in the grand scheme... And evaluate.

Jedi: The power to cloud men's minds, trick them, and evade detection will make them able to avoid human guards completely. Their ability to block and deflect beam weaponry means phaser-equipped guards aren't a problem. But they suffer the problem of assassins in the Roman Empire: Killing the man at the top doesn't do much except cause brief commotion, there are those below with power.

I don't see how the Jedi would want to dominate in the first place. Since it is so out of place, I can't see it happening.

Sith: Here is where it is. These guys are capable of damn near anything: Not only do they have combat capabilities greater than the Jedi, their mind control is even more complete. A deranged clone of a Jedi Master could hold the entire crew(55,000 men) in utter thrall, total control. The Emporer boosted his armies and navies from afar without large efforts through his mastery of hte Force. He could even bend the wills of billions of people when he buried the SSD Lusankya under Coruscant's streets.

ARRGGHHH! Goddamn purists!

A SITH IS NOT A DARK JEDI. THEY ARE TWO 100% DESTINCT ENTITIES

Jedi have a version of and a counter to EVERY SINGLE SITH TECHNIQUE and the average Sith joe in heyday of the Sith Empire was about an equal of his Republic counterpart, the Jedi Knight. By the Prequel Era, there are ONLY TWO Sith at any time, so an enormous amount of Sith lore, experience, training, and knowledge are concentrated by the reigning Sith Master on training a single apprentice to perfection. This makes your average Prequel-era Sith Lord a match and then some for the average Jedi Master. However, they can be taken by highly experienced Jedi Masters or Jedi Council members or Jedi en masse. They're not invincible, but generally you get better troops on a one-by-one basis with elite spec ops then the general army, and its the same idea with the "rule of two" Sith Order and the Jedi Order of the same time.

Even Force Storms have a Jedi equivalent and can be controlled/manipulated by Jedi.

C'boath was using the Dark Side equivalent of Jedi Battle Meditation. Jedi ARE CAPABLE OF and HAVE USED huge-scale Force manipulation of matter, natural forces, and minds.

The Emperor DID NOT exert influence over the ENTIRE Empire. The statements in the Thrawn Trilogy simply state that, for whatever reason, Palpatine chose to personally oversee and observe the Rebel fleet's destruction through the Dark Side. When his body was destroyed, the abrupt disconnection from the Emperor left the fleet confused and disrupted. They fled. I elaborate in the "Is there anything in Star Trek that can threaten Star Wars?" thread, page 3.

Basically here's how it went down. Palpatine widened his Dark Side influence to influence the fleet. Basically it inperceptively changed their reaction times and focused their attacks, made them in unison. I believe he probably did this to feed off the death and destruction of the pitiful Rebels in the battle above, and to impress Vader and possibly Skywalker to, who could have felt it, but not said anything in dialogue. When Palpatine was killed, the concentration was instantly snapped. Their universal combat high/concentration was snapped and they suddenly "woke up" to normal perception. It would've been a jolting feeling. Not to mention, they also might have been influenced through Palpatine's Battle Meditation by his emotions in the Force at the time of death: fear, hate, dispair, etc. These mixture of jolting influences disrupted the fleet's cohesion, and helped the Rebels drive them off until Pelleaon took command and ordered a retreat. Thrawn indicates the Palpatine was using the Force to influence the fleet at Endor specifically, using that Battle as an example. He doesn't indicate in any way it was the whole Empire he influenced. This merely indicates that Palpatine regularly took pleasure in using his Dark Side talents to personally experience and manipulate conflicts, and Thrawn was aware of this propensity of Palpatine's, so he chalked it's abrupt termination up for what was responsible for the unusual level of combat confusion. Obviously his influence was near-imperceptable, but significant enough to turn a tide; indeed, Palleaon figures the confusion at Endor to be mere battle confusion, so Palpatine's influence was not that deep.

Too damn many posters with Imperialphilia. Don't wank on their supposed abilities now.

*deep breath*

End rant.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Phasers are irrelevent. Jedi Masters and such use sabres to deflect blaster bolts to save time and effort.

Experience Force Users can redirect energy with the Force alone (although this requires more power and experience and his more draining for the Force User). A comic featured Yoda using the Force to throw blaster bolts back at foes. A phaser would be of no concern.

[The Dark]

And didn't Corran Horn simply absorb energy in I, Jedi? It may be EU, but it happened.

[Darth Wong]

What's this talk of deflecting blaster bolts? Who cares? A Sith Lord would use the Force to manipulate people in the centralized Federation power structure to his advantage, quickly rising up the ladder and eventually seizing absolute power. No bloodshed or combat is necessary.

[neoolong]

And if the need arise forceusers can just give people aneurysms. Like the TPM analysis says "Jedi Knights do not need a clear line of sight to the object they are manipulating." All sorts of nasty things they could do to a body that wouldn't be traced back to them. Of course, they would be better of manipulating people to gain control.

[Shinova]

If the Jedi/Sith stay low, then they'd win. If they do something stupid and expose themselves then, after failed negotiation efforts, Starfleet would nuke the place they're in.

I think that's the way it is. Being generous to Star Trek here.

[Patrick Degan]

What's this talk of deflecting blaster bolts? Who cares? A Sith Lord would use the Force to manipulate people in the centralized Federation power structure to his advantage, quickly rising up the ladder and eventually seizing absolute power. No bloodshed or combat is necessary.

A very subtle way of taking over the UFP. After all, who among the Federation's population would even notice the President's new advisor who's tailoring tends toward dark robes and has the odd but otherwise harmless habit of idly waving his hand while the President speaks?

[Ender]

In Specter of the Past, Luke consider's using the force to tear apart the hull of aship, but decides it would be encroaching on the Dark Side.

Just food for thought.

[SirNitram]

Illuminatus:

Sorry, you are wrong on several counts.

Joruus controlled every person there. Read the passage. It is NOT Battle Meditation, a power I am intimately familiar with. Battle Meditation offers no control, simply amping up the skills of those present and crippling those of the opposition. In a show of power against Thrawn and Pelleaon, Joruus sezies every mind on the Chimaera not defended by a Yslamiri! When attacking with cloaked dreadnoughts, he's also controlling the clones enough to make sure they fire at the right second. All Battle Meditation does is grant stat bonuses, NOT blindsight.

The Emperor's level of control and type of control is never stated. I would love to hear your proof that it's some sort of 'telepathic signal' that magically amps up their power.

The Emperor also directly controlled billions or trillions when hiding the Lusankya. Or are you such a moron as to think you can tuck a ten mile starship under a city with a wave of your hand?

Your claims of 'Imperialphillia' and 'wanking' don't impress me, kiddo. Post proof for your claims or STFU.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Illuminatus:

Sorry, you are wrong on several counts.

Joruus controlled every person there. Read the passage. It is NOT Battle Meditation, a power I am intimately familiar with. Battle Meditation offers no control, simply amping up the skills of those present and crippling those of the opposition. In a show of power against Thrawn and Pelleaon, Joruus sezies every mind on the Chimaera not defended by a Yslamiri! When attacking with cloaked dreadnoughts, he's also controlling the clones enough to make sure they fire at the right second. All Battle Meditation does is grant stat bonuses, NOT blindsight.

I said they were related powers, says so in several Sourcebooks outright, including the Dark Side Sourcebook. I didn't say they were the same thing, that's retarded. And Jedi Battle Meditation practiced by Nomi Sunrider compelled several wild animals to avoid her daughter and attack each other in a rage. Jedi Master Arca used Battle Meditation to manipulate a battle between the Onderonian Beast Warriors and the Iziz Military.

Oh, and "stat bonuses" don't exist in SW canon. You can put the RPG down now.

The Emperor's level of control and type of control is never stated. I would love to hear your proof that it's some sort of 'telepathic signal' that magically amps up their power.

The Emperor also directly controlled billions or trillions when hiding the Lusankya. Or are you such a moron as to think you can tuck a ten mile starship under a city with a wave of your hand?

Your claims of 'Imperialphillia' and 'wanking' don't impress me, kiddo. Post proof for your claims or STFU.

Strawman. I said in another post he can cloud the perceptions of people in general by personally overriding their senses with the illusion he wanted them to see: it is this people extrapolate to apply to the whole of the entire Empire. Not to mention they never say anything as to how he actually did it. So the point is irrelevent. Please cease trying to prove points based on one of the two possibilities Wedge Antilles comes up with for how.

This is absurd: if Palpatine could control things on such a large value, he'd simply sieze control of the Rebel fleet, and let the Empire use them for target practice. Additionally, there'd be no need to replace the governers with Dark Side Adepts if he could personally do their job himself already.

[SirNitram]

Wow, you're chidlish.

1) Joruus does not 'compel' the crew to do something. He seizes the minds of all of them and holds them. RTFB.

2) Stat bonuses do exist in SW continuity, because WEG is part of it. Suck my dick.

3) Cloud perceptions will not get them to walk out of the 10 mile long hole which is being made. Try again.

4) Perhaps he wanted the Rebels alive, as a means to constantly exhibit more control? To cause more anger, hate, and destruction? These would be manifestations of the Dark Side, wouldn't they? Oh yea, they would. The Rebellion was helping him, moron, furthering the Dark Side.

[tharkûn]

3. Who said they got out of the way?

4. Umm did he specifically state that Endor was a trap to crush the rebellion? If he wants them to keep working, why send the DSI to kill them (in case you want to give me the BS about Luke being the sole reason for the DSII to exist) at Yavin?

[SirNitram]

3. Who said they got out of the way?

4. Umm did he specifically state that Endor was a trap to crush the rebellion? If he wants them to keep working, why send the DSI to kill them (in case you want to give me the BS about Luke being the sole reason for the DSII to exist) at Yavin?

3) You know.. I wouldn't be surprised at all.

4) Neither Yavin nor Endor held the entire Rebellion, just the parts that were a true threat. Hence the Death Star's attacking them. Remove the true threat, and you can keep the shadow of fear over people. Make sense now?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wow, you're chidlish.

1) Joruus does not 'compel' the crew to do something. He seizes the minds of all of them and holds them. RTFB.

Show where in the above quote I say exactly what you just refuted. I see you're a fan of strawmen: if you can't win, just misrepresent.

Palleaon states how C'boath is able to control all the crewmen because the clones' minds number in the thousands, but are really just variations of less then half a dozen patterns due to the flash-memory imprinting at Mount Tantiss.

Concession Accepted.

2) Stat bonuses do exist in SW continuity, because WEG is part of it. Suck my dick.

You're calling me childish now? Don't be a dumbfuck because you're wrong. Stat bonuses are RPG representations of Force abilities that cannot be precisely approximated in the game. Just because I actually read the comic where the power is utilized and you're relying on your weak RPG rules doesn't mean I'm wrong. Just dodge the issue why don't you? RPG RULES OF THIS KIND DO NOT EXIST IN SW CANON. GAME PLAY MECHANICS ARE NOT CANON, ONLY NON-GAME DESCRIPTION IN RPG SOURCEBOOKS IS.

Is that difficult to understand? Dipshit. If you want, I'll provide the quote in rapid succession. Don't cry now because you're an idiot.

Concession Accepted.

3) Cloud perceptions will not get them to walk out of the 10 mile long hole which is being made. Try again.

In-universe speculation by Antilles doesn't make it what actually happened; indeed, he suggests in fact Palpatine could've just killed all of them. Maybe Palpatine set up a huge new underground resivour project and bulldozed a section of Coruscant. The airspace is closed The cloacked Lusankya is lowered in, Palpatine covers up any loose ends with a tad of Force manipulation, the crews build new scrapers above.

Concession Accepted.

4) Perhaps he wanted the Rebels alive, as a means to constantly exhibit more control? To cause more anger, hate, and destruction? These would be manifestations of the Dark Side, wouldn't they? Oh yea, they would. The Rebellion was helping him, moron, furthering the Dark Side.

Proof? Oh right, you have none. Palpatine personally says he didn't give a fuck about the Rebellion (RoTJ, Essential Guide to Characters) asshat. Even if negative emotions fueled the Dark Side in a massive macroscopic level like that (Trekkie style no-limit mentality), his oppressive rule and the DBZing of planets would more then create enough increased power. The hope and light of the Rebellion would just hurt him.

But oh yeah, that doesn't matter because point #4. is unsupported fan-speculation and horseshit, I forgot.

Concession Accepted.

Basically we have SirNitram's point....

1) .....which is irrelevent horseshit refuting a statement I never made. (I say Jedi Battle Meditation is related to the family of powers that let Sith and Dark Jedi do mass-control, and he gives dumb shit about C'boath?)

2) ....the laughable assertion that stats bonuses for RPGs exist as part of how the SW universe internally exists despite obvious stupidity and the fact this has been shotdown by Sansweet himself (I'll provide the quote to anyone who asks before the end of the day as I need to check my quote database) and the fact that the burden of proof, particularly for something that stupid, is on him.

3) ....bases an entire strawman on a throw away line of fucking speculation of an in-universe character and I just provided a partial theory for why it doesn't have to be true...and to boot he chooses not to include the said characters alternative speculation as well.

4) ....bases a line of obvious horseshit speculation on his own delusions with no proof that proves to be inconsistent with its own assertion anyway and not even a half-way decent refutation.

What's that again? Concession Accepted, dumbfuck.

[SirNitram]

You're amusing, Illum, but frankly I don't care about you. You twist things so pathetically...

Claim to accept concessions all you want. It really does not change the fact people have seen you are wrong.

Stats exist, though they are an abstract(Yes, Thrawn really is better at examining Art than he is at flying a capital ship), but the descriptions of powers are totally legit. You don't like this, however, because it destroys your position. Oh well.

You don't like the fact a passage in DFR destroys your position. You claim strawman. Oh well.

You claim the only in-universe speculation MUST be invalid, because it hurts your theory. Gee, circular logic? But oh well. You just claim it's wrong for some unforeseen reason. No proof for your claim, just crying.

As for 4 being speculation, it's no worse than your atrocious mutilation of the Force in claiming your opinions must be true. Go fuck off. I've proven my points to the intelligent debators.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Well, if you use the EU Jedi that can send an ISD into hyperspace, they'll surely win.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Jedi used a version of the Force Storm to do that, throwing them through spacetime or something, according to Insider and the new Jedi Sourcebook.