Yoda vs Palpatine

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-12 12:51pm

Could Yoda face Palpatine in combat and hold his own or even win, or would he be beaten easily?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-12 12:57pm

Difficult to say. I don't think Yoda could defeat Palpatine with ease, but perhaps we will find out in seven months...

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-10-12 12:59pm

Isn't Yoda is about as equal as Dooku in AOTC? If Palpatine is stronger than Dooku, then Yoda is lost.

Now if we take Dark Empire, you know, Force Storm and such.....

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-12 01:31pm

Difficult to say, but if Yoda could have easily smacked Palpatine down then there wouldn't have been any need for him to go in hiding, would there...

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-10-12 01:36pm

Praxis wrote:Difficult to say, but if Yoda could have easily smacked Palpatine down then there wouldn't have been any need for him to go in hiding, would there...

Even if Yoda could take on the Emperor, I doubt he could handle the Emperor after dealing with legions of Clonetroopers and their vehicles AND Darth Vader... getting to Palpatine himself is just as hard, if not harder.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-10-12 01:40pm

If he could there would have been no need for Luke.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-10-12 04:05pm

Sharp-kun wrote:If he could there would have been no need for Luke.

Not neccesarily. Let's not forget the only reason Luke ever had a shot at even meeting the Emperor was because he had the potential to be turned. Yoda does not. Chances are if he tried to confront the Emperor he'd be ass raped six ways til sunday by a fullisade of laser bolts before he ever got within striking distance.

For the question in hand, I'd say Palpatine is definately more powerful. In their old age or withered forms, neither Palpatine nor Yoda appear too dangerous in the OT, but from PT sources we know that Palpatine can cloud Yoda's Force senses without him being able to tell. Furthermore, Yoda has nothnig on Force storms.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-12 06:09pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:but from PT sources we know that Palpatine can cloud Yoda's Force senses without him being able to tell. Furthermore, Yoda has nothnig on Force storms.

What PT sources?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-10-12 06:16pm

Stofsk wrote:What PT sources?

Attack of the Clones.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-12 06:19pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Stofsk wrote:What PT sources?
Attack of the Clones.

I don't recall AOTC stating that Palpatine was actively distrupting the Jedi's senses.

I do recall them state "The DARK SIDE clouds everything." There is a difference.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-12 06:20pm

The ability to hide one's force abilities may be something that any competent Jedi can do.

After all we never saw any other Jedi try to hide their abilities from another force user.

Therefore, Palpatine's ability to do so may not be the benchmark of power that it's often made out to be.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2004-10-12 06:22pm

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Isn't Yoda is about as equal as Dooku in AOTC? If Palpatine is stronger than Dooku, then Yoda is lost.

Now if we take Dark Empire, you know, Force Storm and such.....

Only reason that Dooku got away from Yoda was because he threatened to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan by dropping the roof on them, which Yoda was forced to address.

If Yoda hadn't been forced to keep the ceiling from collapsing on Anakin and Obi-Wan, then he probably would have been able to halt Dooku at the least.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-10-12 06:23pm

Stofsk wrote:I do recall them state "The DARK SIDE clouds everything." There is a difference.

Well of course he said that. If he knew it was Palpatine, he wouldn't be sitting there discussing important issuses with him, now would he?

And since there were only two Force users who could use the Dark Side at the time--Palpatine and Dooku--we can rightfully assume that it was one of them. Meanwhile, Dooku is running around making deals with the Seperatists; Palpatine is the grand master, and he's right on top of the Jedi too.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-12 06:24pm

Jean Paul wrote:The ability to hide one's force abilities may be something that any competent Jedi can do.

After all we never saw any other Jedi try to hide their abilities from another force user.

Depends on if you think Obi-wan was using the Force for stealth in the DS. In which case, he was still 'sensed' by Vader. Same deal goes for Luke on the Tyderium. Of course these two had personal connections with Vader/Anakin which would likely have tipped the latter off.

Therefore, Palpatine's ability to do so may not be the benchmark of power that it's often made out to be.

I would prefer to wait and see with ROTS, because I have a feeling this in particular will be explained. How Palpatine managed to hide from the Jedi seems important to establish, and hopefully might even be a plot point.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-10-12 06:26pm

Jean Paul wrote:The ability to hide one's force abilities may be something that any competent Jedi can do.

After all we never saw any other Jedi try to hide their abilities from another force user.

Therefore, Palpatine's ability to do so may not be the benchmark of power that it's often made out to be.

Palpatine wasn't just hiding his identity, his Force powers were hindering all the Jedi around him, too. Remember how Yoda and Mace Windu couldn't see into the future, then refer to the Dark Side clouding everything? Who else could it be?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-12 06:27pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:And since there were only two Force users who could use the Dark Side at the time--Palpatine and Dooku--we can rightfully assume that it was one of them.

Yoda could use the Dark Side - he probed it, remember? Indeed, ANY Force User can use the Dark Side. This point of yours doesn't make sense.

AOTC was supposed to confer onto us the notion that the Jedi were being assaulted on more than one plane, the physical or the mental, if you will. Why must Palpatine necessarily be responsible for both? The Force is out of balance. And by actively using the Force you make yourself a bigger target.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-12 06:28pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Palpatine wasn't just hiding his identity, his Force powers were hindering all the Jedi around him, too. Remember how Yoda and Mace Windu couldn't see into the future, then refer to the Dark Side clouding everything? Who else could it be?

How about the DARK SIDE, which is what they said? These are Jedi MASTERS, I'm inclined to trust them on their insight.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-10-12 06:34pm

Stofsk wrote:Yoda could use the Dark Side - he probed it, remember? Indeed, ANY Force User can use the Dark Side. This point of yours doesn't make sense.

No, your point doesn't make sense. Unless you believe it was a/some Jedi from the Temple that was blocking Yoda's vision, of course.

AOTC was supposed to confer onto us the notion that the Jedi were being assaulted on more than one plane, the physical or the mental, if you will. Why must Palpatine necessarily be responsible for both? The Force is out of balance.

The Force is out of balance... so the Force, acting completely on its own, blocked all the Jedi's vision? With the Dark Side, even?

No, it makes much more sense that Palpatine, a scheming dark side user within the vicinity of every Jedi on Coruscant, was responsible.

And by actively using the Force you make yourself a bigger target.

Which isn't a problem if you can hide yourself.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-12 06:40pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:No, your point doesn't make sense. Unless you believe it was a/some Jedi from the Temple that was blocking Yoda's vision, of course.

ESB. The Cave. The Dark Side created a phantasm of Vader to torment Luke.

[EDIT] Oh and you said that ONLY TWO force users could access the Dark Side, and I corrected you. Anyone can use the Dark Side, it doesn't make them automatical Sith.

The Force is out of balance... so the Force, acting completely on its own, blocked all the Jedi's vision? With the Dark Side, even?

The Force. The Cave. Work it out.

No, it makes much more sense that Palpatine, a scheming dark side user within the vicinity of every Jedi on Coruscant, was responsible.

Without them detecting him? Uh huh. And he's SOOO fucking powerful that he can cloud the senses of EVERY FUCKING JEDI? That isn't covert by any means, anyway. That's an overt attack on the Jedi, and out of 10'000 of them I find it beggars belief that not ONE could zero in on Palpatine. You're dreaming.

Which isn't a problem if you can hide yourself.

Problem: Obi-wan 'hid' himself on the DS, and Vader picked up on him with his Jedi/Sith Force transceiver. Luke didn't even use the Force at Endor and he could sense Vader's presence, and vice versa.

Once you become a receptor you also become a transmitter.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-10-12 06:50pm

Stofsk wrote:[EDIT] Oh and you said that ONLY TWO force users could access the Dark Side, and I corrected you. Anyone can use the Dark Side, it doesn't make them automatical Sith.

You're right. I should've said only two Force users were actually using the Dark Side, Palpatine and Dooku.

The Force. The Cave. Work it out.

That wasn't the Force acting on its own. A dark Jedi was killed by Yoda there years before ESB, and his presence lingered there for some time.

Without them detecting him? Uh huh. And he's SOOO fucking powerful that he can cloud the senses of EVERY FUCKING JEDI? That isn't covert by any means, anyway. That's an overt attack on the Jedi, and out of 10'000 of them I find it beggars belief that not ONE could zero in on Palpatine. You're dreaming.

Why not? He can wipe out entire fleets, warp time and distort reality with the Force, why not block the senses of the Jedi?

Problem: Obi-wan 'hid' himself on the DS, and Vader picked up on him with his Jedi/Sith Force transceiver. Luke didn't even use the Force at Endor and he could sense Vader's presence, and vice versa.

Which tells me that a Force user can be detected by another Force user regardless of whether or not they're actively using their powers. NO ONE knew that Palpatine could use the Force, and he's sitting six feet away from Yoda in AOTC. Therefore, he must've been hiding his abilities. So if he's undectable to the 10,000 Jedi on Coruscant, then he could cloud their senses without being noticed either.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-12 06:59pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Stofsk wrote:[EDIT] Oh and you said that ONLY TWO force users could access the Dark Side, and I corrected you. Anyone can use the Dark Side, it doesn't make them automatical Sith.
You're right. I should've said only two Force users were actually using the Dark Side, Palpatine and Dooku.

And you're STILL wrong. Yoda used it by probing it. Anakin was seduced by it, and Yoda on Coruscant could pick up on the pain he felt.

That wasn't the Force acting on its own. A dark Jedi was killed by Yoda there years before ESB, and his presence lingered there for some time.

Fuck off, or prove it was the cause. I certainly don't recall Yoda saying in ESB the Cave was the way it was thanks to some errant Dark Jedi who he kicked the shit out of years before. Maybe you can point out the scene in question?

Why not? He can wipe out entire fleets, warp time and distort reality with the Force, why not block the senses of the Jedi?

Because they're on the same playing field as he. They use the force, so they have a chance at recognising the attack and countering it. Or at the very least detecting it.

Which tells me that a Force user can be detected by another Force user regardless of whether or not they're actively using their powers.

Except Obi-wan was using his powers. He used them to sneak around the DS.

NO ONE knew that Palpatine could use the Force, and he's sitting six feet away from Yoda in AOTC.

And yet in the same film Yoda and Mace confess that the Dark Side have clouded their vision.

Therefore, he must've been hiding his abilities.

Or the Dark Side was clouding their vision, which is what they say canonically on film.

So if he's undectable to the 10,000 Jedi on Coruscant, then he could cloud their senses without being noticed either.

Or the Dark Side was clouding their vision, which is what Yoda and Mace say on film.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-12 07:02pm

Yes but, Vader wasn't feeling Obi-Wan's or Lukes abiltiy to use the force, he was just feeling their presence, that they were there in person.

At Endor, he probably also felt Han, Chewie etc, he'd met them before. But being so fixated on his son he maybe didn't even notice these others.. they were like background noise to the one personality he was focused on.

Didn't matter in any case since he knew, whether by feeling Luke or feeling them all, that it was a shuttle full of rebels, and decided to let them land anyways to walk into the trap.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-12 09:11pm

So you guys know, Stofsk is of the opinion that the Dark Side of the force is seperate from the user. I've had several debates with him on it, with neither being able to disprove the other.

This came up in one of them. He thinks that the Dark Side itself was clouding the Jedi, while I feel Palpatine was doing it. Personally, I think Vergere's theory is the best as to the nature of the force, and that the Force, is, as Obi-wan said, an energy field that surrounds all life. How can an energy field disrupt senses on its own? Perhaps a force WEILDER can use it to block another's senses, but it doesn't make sense (to ME, not necessarily to you guys, at least) that the Force itself clouds the judgement of its users. I find it (again, to ME) much more reasonable to believe that the weilder, Palpatine, is using it to dampen the senses of his enemies. Sort of like a jamming field.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-10-12 10:30pm

Stofsk wrote:And you're STILL wrong. Yoda used it by probing it. Anakin was seduced by it, and Yoda on Coruscant could pick up on the pain he felt.

Ok.

Fuck off, or prove it was the cause. I certainly don't recall Yoda saying in ESB the Cave was the way it was thanks to some errant Dark Jedi who he kicked the shit out of years before. Maybe you can point out the scene in question?

Why would a cave just be randomly filled with dark side energies? That seems a bit silly. The Dark Jedi rationale gives a reason why it would be like this, instead of the Force just getting pissed off at some hollow rock and tainting it with its presence. I would wonder if there any other examples of objects just being "strong in the Force" (for lack of a better term) without the influence of other Force users.

Because they're on the same playing field as he. They use the force, so they have a chance at recognising the attack and countering it. Or at the very least detecting it.

Unless Palpatine conceals his identity while he does it. Lest we forget, he has displayed an ability to manipulate the Force greater than any other Jedi.

Except Obi-wan was using his powers. He used them to sneak around the DS.

Only once or twice, to throw off some guards or something. Vader sensed Obi-Wan's presence before they even got off the Millenium Falcon, remember? Vader walks away from the ship and says, "I sense something, a presence I haven't felt since..."

Or the Dark Side was clouding their vision, which is what they say canonically on film.

And you don't think they would've sensed him before then either? Remember, Yoda was in Palpatine's presence 10 years earlier in TPM. Working in Coruscant, he was bound to have run into other Jedi before than too, like Jedi Master Jorus C'Baoth (NEGTC).

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-10-13 12:10am

Praxis wrote: This came up in one of them. He thinks that the Dark Side itself was clouding the Jedi, while I feel Palpatine was doing it. Personally, I think Vergere's theory is the best as to the nature of the force, and that the Force, is, as Obi-wan said, an energy field that surrounds all life. How can an energy field disrupt senses on its own? Perhaps a force WEILDER can use it to block another's senses, but it doesn't make sense (to ME, not necessarily to you guys, at least) that the Force itself clouds the judgement of its users. I find it (again, to ME) much more reasonable to believe that the weilder, Palpatine, is using it to dampen the senses of his enemies. Sort of like a jamming field.

That arguement works in the new trilogy, but not in the original trilogy.

Palpy was unable to foresee Vader's betrayal. Was Luke clouding his vision? I doubt it. If not him, the only thing that could've done it was the light side of the Force.