Is there anything in Star Trek that can threaten Star Wars?

[tharkûn]

Oh I'm sorry I thought Star Wars was science fiction. Occam's razor:
a. The emperor uses a "mystical phenomenon" to enhance imperial troops.
b. The emperor uses something akin to telepathic broadcasting to enhance crew performance.

Whatever I'm not going to argue a moronic point and hijack the thread. If it means that much to you, start a new thread.

[Ghost Rider]

I see so when Mystical powers just doesn't make sense you go for equally UNKNOWN principle.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA...so you have proof of either the limits of the Force or telepathy

Please humor us.

[Darth Wong]

Oh I'm sorry I thought Star Wars was science fiction. Occam's razor:
a. The emperor uses a "mystical phenomenon" to enhance imperial troops.
b. The emperor uses something akin to telepathic broadcasting to enhance crew performance.

Whatever I'm not going to argue a moronic point and hijack the thread. If it means that much to you, start a new thread.

Do not mis-use Occam's Razor (this is pretty ironic, considering your bizarre arguments on the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" front). Both theories employ a non-observable phenomenon with no empirical basis, hence Occam's Razor does not allow us to choose between them. In fact, both theories are essentially identical, except that the second one puts a pointless technobabble name on this mystical phenomenon.

[Patrick Degan]

About the only remotely conceivable threat would be if the Imperials contracted the prevalent Stupidity Virus which has raged through the Alpha and Beta Quadrant populations for at least three decades now.

[tharkûn]

Mike: Not really one requires that emperor deal with a data set larger than his brain can possibly hold. The other doesn't. Your brain is a glorified computer, but a rather weak one.

One he does this individual by individual, which means his brain (or something else) has to process this information.

The other means he doesn't process the data for each individual.

One requires a mystical ability to effect troop performance AND the ability to sort all that data. The other requires only the ability to effect troop performance.

One requires two unknowns (the ability to process it person by person and actually do whatever the hell he does), the other requires only one.

Occam's Razor (that put forth by William of Occam) is about the number of unknowns, not about abscence of evidence vs evidence of abscence. That is more modern.

[The Dark]

The Thawn trilogy contradicts what you say. The Emperor was using the force to boost the combat effectiveness in various ways of crews and armies f the whole Empire.

I thought that was Joruus C'Baoth...

And Star Trek does have ONE thing to threaten Star Wars: B&B...the thought of them being involved in any possible cross-over should send shudders down every thinking science-fiction fan's spine.

[Darth Wong]

Mike: Not really one requires that emperor deal with a data set larger than his brain can possibly hold. The other doesn't. Your brain is a glorified computer, but a rather weak one.

Leap in logic. What makes you think the Emperor needs to constantly maintain data in order to exert control? Who said there was a two-way feedback process involved here? Why can't he simply send instructions one-way?

You are adding a feedback loop to a system in which only a one-way communication is necessary. As I said before, you are shamelessly misusing Occam's Razor. Please try to understand it before you attempt to wield that particular bladed instrument in combat.

One he does this individual by individual, which means his brain (or something else) has to process this information.

The other means he doesn't process the data for each individual.

Telepathy does not necessarily imply feedback. You are basing your argument upon needless assumptions.

One requires a mystical ability to effect troop performance AND the ability to sort all that data. The other requires only the ability to effect troop performance.

Ditto.

One requires two unknowns (the ability to process it person by person and actually do whatever the hell he does), the other requires only one.

Wrong. You are arbitrarily adding a requirement that does not exist, in order to pretend that one theory is more complex than the other. I grow tired of these kinds of intellectual shell games.

Occam's Razor (that put forth by William of Occam) is about the number of unknowns, not about abscence of evidence vs evidence of abscence. That is more modern.

Occam's Razor applies to the "absence of evidence" argument. It is about the number of TERMS in an equation. Don't spout nonsense about that which you clearly do not understand.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Thawn trilogy contradicts what you say. The Emperor was using the force to boost the combat effectiveness in various ways of crews and armies f the whole Empire.

I thought that was Joruus C'Baoth...

And Star Trek does have ONE thing to threaten Star Wars: B&B...the thought of them being involved in any possible cross-over should send shudders down every thinking science-fiction fan's spine.

Thawn's idea to use C'Baoth to aid a limited selection of his forces in attacks was inspired by the Emperor constantly doing it for the entire Imperial military. C'Baoth however lacked the skill, at least in the beginning, to do it for all of Thawn's forces. Thawn of course also did not trust him to do so.

It was the removal of this force which cause the heavy infighting and rapid downfall of the Empire after the Emperors death.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Idiot.

How do you know that the Force manipulation used by Palpatine involves the direct influence on each individual mind?

It's highly indicated in the EU, that what the Sith does (or the Jedi with equivalent and less malevolent Jedi Battle Meditation) is they send out an overriding command/thought/illusion that simply overwhelms and overrides the perception of weaker minds, not that they literally concentrate on each and every mind. Psionics require the concentration on individual minds, because telepathy like that involves only minds communicating, etc. But in Star Wars, the whole point of the Sith and Jedi and Dark Jedi's powers are based on the manipulation of the Force. Even the "mind trick" is an indirect influence apon a person's mind. The Force is what is being directly manipulated, if you read the EU interpretations. This is likely how Palpatine hid the burying of Lusankya 17.6 km SSD beneath Coruscant's surface with no one knowing.

[SPOOFE]

Tharkun...

What difference, if any, would there be if Palpatine exerted this "telepathic broadcasting" or a unique control for each individual troop?

The answer: None.

Ergo, your quibbling is senseless. HOW he does it is unimportant. I offered no theory as to how it's done, so I will thank you not to attribute words to me that I did not say. The end result is that Palpatine was capable of enhancing his own troops' performance. Period.

[tharkûn]

Leap in logic. What makes you think the Emperor needs to constantly maintain data in order to exert control? Who said there was a two-way feedback process involved here? Why can't he simply send instructions one-way?
I don't that's why I used the term "broadcast". A broadcast is one way communication, further it is not target to a specific individual. Hence why I used the term.

If the emperor deals with it person by person, then he has to have the brain power to deal with the number of people. The process being two-way is irrelevant. If he does it person by person, he doesn't have the brain power to go through it. The cells just aren't there.

Telepathy does not necessarily imply feedback. You are basing your argument upon needless assumptions.
Where in hell do imply feedback? Let's say I want to call 1000 people's voice mail, I then have to process 1000 phone numbers. Let's say I want to broadcast to 1000 people listening to the same FM channel. I don't have to process information for each.

Wrong. You are arbitrarily adding a requirement that does not exist, in order to pretend that one theory is more complex than the other. I grow tired of these kinds of intellectual shell games.
Nope.
There is no way to direct communications individual by individual that does not require something to process each individual's "adress" whatever that may be. In Shannonistic terms that is at least 1 bit per individual. You can easily broadcast to whomever happens to be receptive, but that is why I state the "broadcast" theory has only one unknown.

Occam's Razor applies to the "absence of evidence" argument. It is about the number of TERMS in an equation, not the number of unknowns. It does not deal with unknowns; it deals with models which are designed to fit observed data, ie- knowns, not unknowns. Don't spout nonsense about that which you clearly do not understand.
Actually the original formulation is:
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate

Which means:
Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily (or so my text says).

The number of terms in equations was NOT part of the initial formulation, considering the state of European mathmatics in the 14th century. I beleive you get terms in equations from Newton and Leibniz. Ernst Mach is the one who takes Occam's Razor to Positivism (abscence of evidence is evidence of abscence). You are referring to the Law of Parsimony, which is stronger than the original formulation.

[tharkûn]

Spoofe:
What difference, if any, would there be if Palpatine exerted this "telepathic broadcasting" or a unique control for each individual troop?
The number of bits that have to churn through his head. How many digits have to be processed to call 1000 (1,000,000/whatever) people on the telephone? How many to do the same on radio?

[Darth Wong]

I don't that's why I used the term "broadcast". A broadcast is one way communication, further it is not target to a specific individual. Hence why I used the term.

So why do you assume that the Emperor must maintain data on each person under his control?

If the emperor deals with it person by person, then he has to have the brain power to deal with the number of people. The process being two-way is irrelevant. If he does it person by person, he doesn't have the brain power to go through it. The cells just aren't there.

And your evidence for your assumption that the Force is necessarily a "person by person" phenomenon is ... ?

Where in hell do imply feedback? Let's say I want to call 1000 people's voice mail, I then have to process 1000 phone numbers. Let's say I want to broadcast to 1000 people listening to the same FM channel. I don't have to process information for each.

Good. Now stop claiming that the Emperor can't do it, since you have now provided your own analogy to disprove your own argument. I refer you back to your original statement that the Emperor is incapable of controlling trillions of people because of the data requirement; you have now essentially admitted that you were wrong.

Actually the original formulation is:
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate

Which means:
Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily (or so my text says).

Which is precisely how the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" argument is deconstructed. In order to conclude that something exists despite a total lack of evidence is to multiply entities unnecessarily. You HONESTLY don't understand this, do you? This is really quite sad.

The number of terms in equations was NOT part of the initial formulation, considering the state of European mathmatics in the 14th century.

The number of terms in equations is one particular application of the basic principle. Are you seriously arguing that a principle does not cover its applications?

I beleive you get terms in equations from Newton and Leibniz. Ernst Mach is the one who takes Occam's Razor to Positivism (abscence of evidence is evidence of abscence). You are referring to the Law of Parsimony, which is stronger than the original formulation.

It is an application of the original principle. You are arguing from semantics rather than concepts.

[Ghost Rider]

I ask you again to prove you have some intimate knowledge that the Emperor cannot and are not just technobabbling out your ear.

You say he can't because well real life says so, when nothing in real life has shown any affinity to some mystical life field or telepathy on that level.

So please...tell us how you came to these conclusion beyond spewing drivel.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sea Skimmer:

Sorry, but you're wrong. The Thrawn Trilogy suggests that the particular fleet at Endor was brainwashed by Palpatine's Dark Side influence, no doubt because the Dark Lord wished to take some personal joy in victory, or to show off to Skywalker, or Vader, or both just how extensive his power was, that he could influence an entire fleet while manipulating them. The subsequent defeat/driving off of the remnants of the Endorian sector fleet/Death Squadron was result of the shock of being suddenly cut off from their influence by Palpatine's body's death.

You're stretching it to suggest that they were all influenced by Palpatine. He was not that powerful.


Palpatine wasn't that powerful because his eventual plans were as follows:

Following up from the "recess" of the Imperial Senate, Palpatine declares martial law and gives the Moffs/Grand Moffs complete control over their territories. This formalizes the authoritorian Imperial rule.

Using the Rebellion as an excuse, the military is expanded, and conscription goes up, as do taxes. Many businesses are nationalized, and several massive corperate heads and notable aristocrats are destroyed by setting them up in conflicts with each other or members of the Imperial power structure (ie. House Tagge and Prince Xizor). This begins eliminating any authority that opposes in any way centralized Imperial control.

Massive funds and resources are diverted to construct Imperial military projects. (ie. the Death Stars, the Tarkin Superlaser Test Bed, the Procurator of Justice's personal worldship, the Eclipse-class and Soveriegn-class Commandships, etc). Economy reverts more and more to centralized control and militaristic support. Free market business is subverted by monopolies by Imperial lackeys (the rival family to the Azzameens in X-Wing Alliance, the Sullustian gov't/corperation's pre-Endor board of directors, the Kuati aristocrats, the Thyferrian Bacta Cartel, etc.).

The Dark Side Adepts trained at Byss will begin superceeding the Imperial Moffs and Grand Moffs slowly, acting as the Emperor's proxies in controlling the galaxy with the Dark Side (source: Dark Side Sourcebook, Dark Empire Sourcebook, Dark Empire Trade Paperback). So the rule of Palpatine would become totalitarian and a new version of the Sith Empire.

If Palpatine needed Dark Side proxies to rule the galaxy with the Dark Side, he didn't have the power to directly control in such a manner. Not to mention there's no real evidence to back that claim up by you in the first place and on you rests the burden of evidence.



Thrawn wanted C'boath's help to see if he could duplicate Palpatine's Dark Side influencing techniques to bolster the combat ability of his meager-sized assault fleets. Of the original 25,000 SDs, many had been destroyed by this time, Thrawn was reduced to a fraction of those (less then 5,000). Remember, the warlords and the remnants of the Empire proper (under Thrawn's control) were reduced to 1/4 of the galaxy mostly in the Outer Rim. And that wasn't just Thrawn's territory remember, it also included the warlords. And to boot, Palpatine's agents had secretly withdrawn much of the remaining Imperial resources a year after Endor while Palpatine recovered and prepared to launch is counteroffensive against the New Republic. Thrawn's genius is remarkable in this sense, he was able to more then double the size of the Empire in half a year with a gutted fleet half-crewed with green conscripts against a better-equipped enemy with greater moral and numbers and with the ability to outproduce the Empire.

[tharkûn]

Do you even bother reading WHAT THE HELL I POSTED before going into attack mode Mike?

Yes that does not mean he does it person by person. He may very well simply send out a telepathic signal that anyone programmed to receive will get a boost from. The human brain cannot deal with a trillion anything. The brain cells just aren't there. If you doubt me, just *count* from 1 to 1 trillion sometime, saying each integer as you go.

or the original post

The emperor doesn't do jack on a trillion anything basis, the human brain just doesn't have the data storage (just *counting* the integers from 1 to 1 trillion is beyond human ability). What he does, like any other military leader in the world, is deal with groups.

I have CONSISTENTLY said that the more reasonable explanation is that it does NOT happen person by person. Why in HELL you feel the need to attribute a position I'M SAYING SUCKS to me is beyond my comprehension. I'm NOT saying it is done person by person.

I'm saying:
THE REASONABLE EXPLANATION IS THAT IT HAPPENS SOMETHING LIKE A BROADCAST. Where the emperor does not receive feedback from his minions.

Doing it person by person introduces unnecessary complexity.

Now where in this do you have a problem? What is the problem with me ascerting that this is most likely NOT done person by person?

[Darth Wong]

Do you even bother reading WHAT THE HELL I POSTED before going into attack mode Mike?

I read that you cover your ass carefully, but the fact is that you posted your argument by way of refuting the notion that the Emperor could counteract Talosian telepathy.

I have CONSISTENTLY said that the more reasonable explanation is that it does NOT happen person by person. Why in HELL you feel the need to attribute a position I'M SAYING SUCKS to me is beyond my comprehension. I'm NOT saying it is done person by person.

NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT IT IS BEING DONE PERSON BY PERSON!!! Don't you get it? I said before that both theories are basically identical, and that you are INVENTING a distinction that does not exist, in order to avoid admitting that you were wrong in dismissing the Emperor's ability to counteract the Talosians!

[Tsyroc]

Wasn't there something in the EU about the effects of telepaths trying their stuff on Dark Siders (or more specifically, the Sith)?

In one of the Dark Horse comics a telepath fries his own brain trying to read Darth Maul's mind.

[tharkûn]

I read that you cover your ass carefully, but the fact is that you posted your argument by way of refuting the notion that the Emperor could counteract Talosian telepathy.

Really Mike.

Of course this means nothing if the Sith can lay the mental whoopass on the Talosians, but I can't think of anyone else.

NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT IT IS BEING DONE PERSON BY PERSON!!! Don't you get it? I said before that both theories are basically identical, and that you are INVENTING a distinction that does not exist, in order to avoid admitting that you were wrong in dismissing the Emperor's ability to counteract the Talosians!
Actually read Sea Skimmer's post. He explicitly states that it was done upon trillions of people. All I said is that he wasn't doing it person by person. Most likely he's broadcasting, and we haven't any evidence for a direct comparison between Palpy's telepathic strength and the Talosians.

His could be somthing completely passive that can be overridden by the active control exhibited by the Talosions (especially if there are many more of them than of him). On the other hand he may be much more powerful and drown their signal out.

So given the abscence of evidence which is the logical conclusion:
a. Palpy is stronger than the Talosions.
b. The Talosions are stronger than Palpy.
c. They are both equally strong.

because I have consistently gone with d. I don't know. (which is the logical conclusion in the abscence of evidence as I understand it).

[Illuminatus Primus]

Irrelevent Debate: Debate Similar to this thread's occupies more than 5 minutes of the Imperial Admirals' time. Emperor Palpatine summons a Force Storm and kills every living thing on their planet's surface.

Game, set, match. Victor: Empire.

[falconbv]

what about the Krenim? they were in STVOY Year of Hell. their ships are out of phase with reality where they are impregneable, so the only way to destroy them is for someone inside the ship shift it out of phase by blowing up the temporal core. plus, their weapon causes temporal incursions that erase things out of history.

[His Divine Shadow]

Sea Skimmer:

Sorry, but you're wrong. The Thrawn Trilogy suggests that the particular fleet at Endor was brainwashed by Palpatine's Dark Side influence, no doubt because the Dark Lord wished to take some personal joy in victory, or to show off to Skywalker, or Vader, or both just how extensive his power was, that he could influence an entire fleet while manipulating them. The subsequent defeat/driving off of the remnants of the Endorian sector fleet/Death Squadron was result of the shock of being suddenly cut off from their influence by Palpatine's body's death.

You're stretching it to suggest that they were all influenced by Palpatine. He was not that powerful.

As if the hiding of the Lusankya doesn't disprove this, this quote certanly will:
========================
Pg. 49-51: Thrawn: "Are you familiar with the Imperial Fleet's disastrous defeat 5 years ago?"

C'baoth: "I've heard rumors. One of the offworlders who came here spoke about it." C'baoth's gaze drifted to the window, to the palace/crypt visible across the square. "Though only briefly."
...
Thrawn: "Then you must have wondered how a few dozen rebel ships could possibly rout an imperial force that outgunned it atleast ten to one?"

C'baoth: I didn't spend much time with such wonderings," C'baoth said dryly. "I assumed that the Rebels were simply better warriors."

Thrawn: "In a sense, that's true," Thrawn agreed. "The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the Fleet because the Emperor was dead."

He turned to Pellaeon. "You were there, Captain--you must have noticed it. The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficiency and discipline. The loss, in shortm of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit."

"There was some confusion, yes," Pellaeon said stiffly. He could see where Thrawn was going with this, and he didn't like it a bit. "But nothing that can't be explained by the normal stresses of battle."

"Really? The loss of the Executor--the sudden, last-minute TIE fighter incompetence that brought about the destruction of the Death Star itself--the loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that none of them should have any trouble with? All of that nothing but normal battle stress?
...
Thrawn: "The Emperors mind provided you with the strenght and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependant on that presence as if you were borg-implanted into a computer."
...
Thrawn: "The Emperors fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That over the long run, is what did the damage."
========================
-Heir to the Empire

[NecronLord]

How about V'ger?

Its ability to disintegrate/digitise galaxies is quite intimidating

[His Divine Shadow]

How about V'ger?

Its ability to disintegrate/digitise galaxies is quite intimidating

Oh yeah, that pud

[Darth Wong]

How about V'ger?

Its ability to disintegrate/digitise galaxies is quite intimidating

We come to the conclusion that it could destroy whole galaxies because there were images of galaxies in its data banks? *cough cough*