Small but important differences in ships

beldar · Post by **beldar** » 2004-10-12 10:30am

Hi, everybody! This is my first post, but I have been a long-time lurker. Anydangways, I have notoced some important differences in the layout of a star destroyer vs. most Federation ships(I admit I haven't seen much of star trek), and how this can be really important.

1-Position of commanding officers(part 1): On board the Enterprise, the captain sits in the center in an armchair. On most Star Destroyers, most officers are standing all the time(at least while on duty). In fact, I have only seen technicians sitting at their posts, never officers.

2-Position of commanding officers(part 2): On star destroyers, the commanding officers are on an upper deck that has viewports surrounding it, so they have an excellent overall view of what's going on. This advantage is further magnified by the position of the bridge on the ship. Most machines and technicians are on the lower deck or in the "instrument pits", which also emphasizes who is where in the chain of command and the much more militaristic bearing of the ship. On a Federation ship, the captain has no real surrounding view; by keeping everything on 1 level, the side and rear views are blocked by readouts. Also, there is much less of a military bearing because of this one level.

3-Life on board: Star trek ships have things like the Holodeck, which while cool have some definite disadvantages besides the enormous amount of energy and space this takes up.. As Dilbert cartoonist Scott Adams once said, "If I am in there getting a massage from Cindy Crawford and her twin sister, what makes people think that I would ever want to leave?". I don't know much about life on board a Star Destroyer, but if it is anything like life onboard a modern terrestrial navy ship, it doesn't have these unneccesary luxuries. For one thing, the Imperial Navy probably has people on duty as long as they possibly can before exhaustion really starts to affect their ability to do their jobs. The rest of the time is probably spent sleeping, eating, showering, etc. What little spare time they have is probably spent with low-intensity entertainment that doesn't really take up that much space or energy(Sabbac, anyone?).

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of these, and add more to the list if you want.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-10-12 10:51am

beldar wrote:Hi, everybody! This is my first post,

Obligatory helloo new guy

1-Position of commanding officers(part 1): On board the Enterprise, the captain sits in the center in an armchair. On most Star Destroyers, most officers are standing all the time(at least while on duty). In fact, I have only seen technicians sitting at their posts, never officers.

EU describes Captians chairs and several Captian's sitting in said chairs
And some(Grand Admiral Thrawn to be exact) Watched the ship from an entirely diffrent "Command Deck" where he could see what every operator saw, every operator could talk to him and he to them
As for real life US Navy Captians they don't sit, either they are looking over someone elses work or if nothings going on, wandering through the ship being "helpful" IE making sure no one is messing around/fucking off

2-Position of commanding officers(part 2): On star destroyers, the commanding officers are on an upper deck that has viewports surrounding it, so they have an excellent overall view of what's going on. This advantage is further magnified by the position of the bridge on the ship. Most machines and technicians are on the lower deck or in the "instrument pits", which also emphasizes who is where in the chain of command and the much more militaristic bearing of the ship. On a Federation ship, the captain has no real surrounding view; by keeping everything on 1 level, the side and rear views are blocked by readouts. Also, there is much less of a military bearing because of this one level.

Its been noted about that beforethat ST has much more of some a big living room feeling compared to SW

3-Life on board: Star trek ships have things like the Holodeck, which while cool have some definite disadvantages besides the enormous amount of energy and space this takes up.

Considering the amount of things that the holodeck can do(Aside from killing crewmen when it breaks) its probably pretty dang efficent on the amount of space it takes up VS its benfits(And space is always at a preminum on ships)

.

beldar · Post by **beldar** » 2004-10-12 02:52pm

Sorry, didn't know about the chairs.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-10-12 02:58pm

SW Brass employs the management theory of Management by Walking Around.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-12 03:56pm

All things considered, the holodeck is one of the best things to have on a starship. For what it can do considering its size, it makes space efficency a real deal. Ships have to have creature comforts of some sort to keep the morale of the crew going. Having a holodeck does this quite nicely. The biggest concern on ships like the Galaxy class is actualy its wasted space with the crew quarters.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-10-12 04:11pm

According to the Star Wars Technical Journal, there are no seats for commanding officers anywhere on the bridge (though I seem to recall there being some in the Thrawn Trilogy, perhaps I am mistaken).

The innards of a Star Destroyer are summed up breifly as well:

"Much of its interior space is dedicated to providing quarters for this enormous crew, and other areas (unlike most Imperial ships) feature recreation facilities for off-duty personell." -P. 90, SWTJ

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-10-12 04:22pm

For Star Trek, don't only officers get access to holodecks?

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 2004-10-12 04:27pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:For Star Trek, don't only officers get access to holodecks?

Could be, on a starship with 6 holodecks and a compliment of over 1000, for instance, would they let everyone and anyone use it?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-12 04:39pm

Jon wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:For Star Trek, don't only officers get access to holodecks?
Could be, on a starship with 6 holodecks and a compliment of over 1000, for instance, would they let everyone and anyone use it?

Then Wesley got some funky permission.

Literally from the look of things anyone could use it, it took though an officer to allow any of the protocols to get turned off.

Sidious · Post by **Sidious** » 2004-10-12 05:21pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Then Wesley got some funky permission.

Other than Wesley have we ever seen any non officers use the holodeck? In Trek it seems like 99% of all Starfleet personnel are officers so hard to say.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2004-10-12 06:13pm

Considering how conformist Trek citizens usually are, one wonders why they would seriously need a holodeck if all they are running are mystery novels.

ANGELUS · Post by **ANGELUS** » 2004-10-12 06:24pm

Sidious wrote:Other than Wesley have we ever seen any non officers use the holodeck? In Trek it seems like 99% of all Starfleet personnel are officers so hard to say.

Well, after all, the crew is not on vacation while in the ship, if we don't see that much crew members in the hollodeck is probably because THEY HAVE WORK TO DO, they can't be wasting their time in the hollodeck. It's just that officers have more authority and they can give extra work to subbordinates while they go waste their time.

However, I think that hollodecks might be useful as training rooms in a ship (like the danger room of the X-Men), they can program training routines and situations instead of using them the stupid way they do.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-12 06:30pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:For Star Trek, don't only officers get access to holodecks?

Seeing as 99% of the ships crew is made up of officers, thats a fairly meaningless statement.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-12 06:30pm

The books often describe a captain's chair but we never see one in the movies, nor is there one indicated on the floor plan. Whenever we see a flag officer in the movies, he's always standing. To explain the EU, it's possible that some captains install one on their own, or alternatively, it might just be a sci-fi brainbug.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-12 06:34pm

ANGELUS wrote:However, I think that hollodecks might be useful as training rooms in a ship (like the danger room of the X-Men), they can program training routines and situations instead of using them the stupid way they do.

The problem with holodeck training is that unless you give your opponent a reasonable facsimile of human intelligence (something they are loathe to do after the Moriarty fiasco), he will behave more predictably than a living, breathing, thinking enemy.

nasor · Post by **nasor** » 2004-10-12 08:44pm

Darth Wong wrote:The problem with holodeck training is that unless you give your opponent a reasonable facsimile of human intelligence (something they are loathe to do after the Moriarty fiasco), he will behave more predictably than a living, breathing, thinking enemy.

I’m sure you’re right, but I’d still have the holodeck full of people training 24/7. When the bridge crew finishes practicing their virtual space battles, the engineering people could run damage control drills in perfect simulations of damaged ships. Then the security people could divide into teams and practice repelling borders, tearing apart half the simulated ship with their simulated weapons if they feel like it. Oh, the possibilities…

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-12 08:50pm

nasor wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The problem with holodeck training is that unless you give your opponent a reasonable facsimile of human intelligence (something they are loathe to do after the Moriarty fiasco), he will behave more predictably than a living, breathing, thinking enemy.
I’m sure you’re right, but I’d still have the holodeck full of people training 24/7. When the bridge crew finishes practicing their virtual space battles, the engineering people could run damage control drills in perfect simulations of damaged ships. Then the security people could divide into teams and practice repelling borders, tearing apart half the simulated ship with their simulated weapons if they feel like it. Oh, the possibilities…

I don't think that would have a fraction of the value of live-fire training exercises. From what I've been told (by guys who have been there), the first live-fire training exercise is a real gut-check event, and people do act stupid and do things they're not supposed to do, even if they did them properly on countless drills before then. Fed soldiers could train on holodecks countless times and still not be psychologically prepared for the experience of coming under real fire. Perhaps that's what makes the Klingons so dangerous; they're idiots with no real warfighting abilities but at least they won't wilt in battle. It would also explain the "hero syndrome" of Federation officers who can hold off a small army of Klingons even though the Klingons tear through regular Federation personnel like a hot knife through butter; the heroes are experienced and do not experience the first-time paralysis that the holodeck-trained newbies do.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-12 08:59pm

Wasn't there some Voyager episode or something where they were on the holodeck and Klingon's beat German Wehrmacht (WW2) soldiers, or some such ridiculous nonsense? Speaks volumes of the intelligence of the holodeck programmers of that scenario, that.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-12 09:06pm

Vympel wrote:Wasn't there some Voyager episode or something where they were on the holodeck and Klingon's beat German Wehrmacht (WW2) soldiers, or some such ridiculous nonsense? Speaks volumes of the intelligence of the holodeck programmers of that scenario, that.

As I recall, three Klingons charged at a German MG42 emplacement and overran it with knives. That scene was an abomination to all of television.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-10-12 09:14pm

Vympel wrote:Wasn't there some Voyager episode or something where they were on the holodeck and Klingon's beat German Wehrmacht (WW2) soldiers, or some such ridiculous nonsense? Speaks volumes of the intelligence of the holodeck programmers of that scenario, that.

Yeah, that was the two parter with the Hirogen. ("The Killing Game")

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-10-12 09:30pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Vympel wrote:Wasn't there some Voyager episode or something where they were on the holodeck and Klingon's beat German Wehrmacht (WW2) soldiers, or some such ridiculous nonsense? Speaks volumes of the intelligence of the holodeck programmers of that scenario, that.
As I recall, three Klingons charged at a German MG42 emplacement and overran it with knives. That scene was an abomination to all of television.

Mention that scene again and I WILL Kill you Mike.

I'm sorry, every time I see that I want to crawl into a fettle position and start crying.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-12 10:34pm

Now had they introduced Klingons armed with futuristic energy weapons kicking ass against the Germans, THAT would have been fun to watch. But they kinda didn't...

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-10-13 02:33am

Darth Wong wrote:
Vympel wrote:Wasn't there some Voyager episode or something where they were on the holodeck and Klingon's beat German Wehrmacht (WW2) soldiers, or some such ridiculous nonsense? Speaks volumes of the intelligence of the holodeck programmers of that scenario, that.
As I recall, three Klingons charged at a German MG42 emplacement and overran it with knives. That scene was an abomination to all of television.

They probably don't want their soldiers to realize how shitty their equipment really is. I mean just think of the reaction people would have toward Star Fleet and the Federation if they realized that facist scum from several hundred years ago is capable of making better military equipment then them?

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2004-10-13 05:02am

Now be fair its not the the Klingon fault they have poor equipment.

And while the holodeck might not be as good as live fire exercises its still better than sitting around not training.

I mean after all even today alot of our military training is done in simulators then honed in live fire exercises. Besides that how they do their Koybashy Maru(SP) scenerio. Look at ST6 they were using a simulator and it seemed effective.

Lots of sci-fi books use simulators as well as live fire.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-10-13 07:50am

Yeah, that was the two parter with the Hirogen. ("The Killing Game")

Are you sure, I just watched "The Killing Game" and I couldn't find such a scene, infact I couldn't find an MG42 in that episode at all?

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Small but important differences in ships

Small but important differences in ships

Re: Small but important differences in ships