Yoda vs Palpatine

[Executor32]

You're forgetting Vader himself, smart guy. After all, he's been hiding his true feelings about Palpy and Luke for years.

[Praxis]

This came up in one of them. He thinks that the Dark Side itself was clouding the Jedi, while I feel Palpatine was doing it. Personally, I think Vergere's theory is the best as to the nature of the force, and that the Force, is, as Obi-wan said, an energy field that surrounds all life. How can an energy field disrupt senses on its own? Perhaps a force WEILDER can use it to block another's senses, but it doesn't make sense (to ME, not necessarily to you guys, at least) that the Force itself clouds the judgement of its users. I find it (again, to ME) much more reasonable to believe that the weilder, Palpatine, is using it to dampen the senses of his enemies. Sort of like a jamming field.

That arguement works in the new trilogy, but not in the original trilogy.

Palpy was unable to foresee Vader's betrayal. Was Luke clouding his vision? I doubt it. If not him, the only thing that could've done it was the light side of the Force.

It's not necessarily that way. Visions of the future occur at RANDOM with the force, and the future is in motion so they're not always correct.

Palpatine DID forsee that Luke would be on Endor, and he DID forsee that he would come to Vader, and he DID forsee that they would meet on the Death Star.

The only bit he was wrong about is that Luke ALMOST, but didn't, turn to the dark side. And that's one of those 'future is always in motion' things. Besides, he probably knew Vader wanted to betray him (happens all the time with Sith), especially since part of his plan involved convincing Luke to kill Vader.

Plus, Vader might have been hiding his feelings.

[Cal Wright]

And you're STILL wrong. Yoda used it by probing it. Anakin was seduced by it, and Yoda on Coruscant could pick up on the pain he felt.

When was Yoda PROBING the Dark Side? It's clear in the PT and especially by Yoda while training Luke that the Dark Side is very fucking taboo. With the knowledge of the Sith being present, I don't see Yoda 'dabling' into it.

Fuck off, or prove it was the cause. I certainly don't recall Yoda saying in ESB the Cave was the way it was thanks to some errant Dark Jedi who he kicked the shit out of years before. Maybe you can point out the scene in question?

Luke: What's in there?
Yoda: Only...what you take with you
Luke picks up his belt with this sabre
Yoda: Your weapons...you will not need them.

First off, I don't buy Zahn's or any of the EU's bullshit about some dark jedi showing up and Yoda killing him. The possibility is Yoda was focusing on it so that Luke would go there, to see how he would fair. Also, Luke's mind, emotions and thoughts directly affected his experience in the cave. Vader comes out, Luke ignites his sabre and aggressively confronts Vader. Upon lopping his head off, the mask explodes and it's Luke's OWN FACE. Showing what he potentially may become if he continues down the path he's on.

[quoteBecause they're on the same playing field as he. They use the force, so they have a chance at recognising the attack and countering it. Or at the very least detecting it.[/quote]

Hard to see the Dark Side is.
The Dark Side clouds everything.
It's highly apparent by Yoda's claims, the Jedi's actions and the Sith's intentions that using the Dark Side can really fuck with you.

Except Obi-wan was using his powers. He used them to sneak around the DS.

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan didn't know Maul was behind the doors of the Theed hanger until the doors opened, and he looked up.
Dooku didn't know Obi-Wan was listening in to the conversation. He was picked up by a patrol that found his ship.
Dooku didn't know Mace had the chance to whack his ass until he ignited his sabre, nor did he know that a shit load of Jedi, Clone Troopers and Yoda were about to rain on his parade.
Granted he just got done kicking Obi-Wan's and Anakin's ass' respectively, he didn't know Yoda was coming up until he heard the walking stick.

We're talking about Jedi Masters and Lord's of the Sith sneaking up on other Masters and Lords. Regardless if a Force user is using the Force or not, it's evident you can hide yourself. Light or Dark.

NO ONE knew that Palpatine could use the Force, and he's sitting six feet away from Yoda in AOTC.

And yet in the same film Yoda and Mace confess that the Dark Side have clouded their vision.

Without them detecting him? Uh huh. And he's SOOO fucking powerful that he can cloud the senses of EVERY FUCKING JEDI? That isn't covert by any means, anyway. That's an overt attack on the Jedi, and out of 10'000 of them I find it beggars belief that not ONE could zero in on Palpatine. You're dreaming.

Coupe' de Gras or however the fuck it goes.

Therefore, he must've been hiding his abilities.

Or the Dark Side was clouding their vision, which is what they say canonically on film.

However in your previous statements your saying they should have found Palpatine and that the Dark Side is actively clouding the Jedi. Where as we know that Palpatine is trying to manipulate the Jedi, while staying hidden and acting as Supreme Chancellor.

So if he's undectable to the 10,000 Jedi on Coruscant, then he could cloud their senses without being noticed either.

Or the Dark Side was clouding their vision, which is what Yoda and Mace say on film.

Or it's Palpatine using the Dark Side. Yoda merely said that the Dark Side is hard to see, and that the Dark Side is clouding thier visions. Mace says that thier ability to use the Force is diminishing. Whether it's light or dark, why would it be deminishing. Unless it's Palpatine using the Dark Side to actively hinder the Jedi and thier actions.

[Cal Wright]

This came up in one of them. He thinks that the Dark Side itself was clouding the Jedi, while I feel Palpatine was doing it. Personally, I think Vergere's theory is the best as to the nature of the force, and that the Force, is, as Obi-wan said, an energy field that surrounds all life. How can an energy field disrupt senses on its own? Perhaps a force WEILDER can use it to block another's senses, but it doesn't make sense (to ME, not necessarily to you guys, at least) that the Force itself clouds the judgement of its users. I find it (again, to ME) much more reasonable to believe that the weilder, Palpatine, is using it to dampen the senses of his enemies. Sort of like a jamming field.

That arguement works in the new trilogy, but not in the original trilogy.

Palpy was unable to foresee Vader's betrayal. Was Luke clouding his vision? I doubt it. If not him, the only thing that could've done it was the light side of the Force.

Actually it would be from Palpatine's arrogance not actually looking down the path that if he was wrong and Vader could be saved and/or Luke could NOT be turned.

I was hoping for support from the novel, but it doesn't make a mention of Palpatine being in error. Always in motion the future is.

[Darth Maul]

I'm not really sure about all this discussion going on currently, but did Palpatine have a lightsaber?

in ROTJ he says strike me down and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete, but when Luke tries it, it is Vader that stops the blow. Assuming he did not have one, it would come down to a battle of the force.

It seemed to me that Yoda was struggling to stop some of the falling objects that Dooku threw down with ease, could this mean he was only the equal of Dooku?

Secondly, can Yoda use force lightning? If I recall correctly, he absorbed it and refocused it but never released his own.

[Connor MacLeod]

This is goign to depend on your sourcees. Some (Before the storm) Imply Yoda might be as powerful or moreso than Palpatine. However others like Dark Empire show that Palpatine has demonstrated abilities far above even what Anakin has (and he's supposed to be the most powerful) - and despite some of the inherent problems with the implied level of capability the "Force Storm" gives Palpy, we also know Luke (who despite being termed a "Jedi Master' is not nearly as trained as an Old Republic Jedi would) and Leia (even less so) plus the infant Anakin were able to "block" Palpy's access to the Force - its quite possible Yoda could do so as well.

But its largely dependent upon how you look at the sources.

As for AOTC era Yoda, his abilities (at least precognition and other "sensory" skills) were clouded by the Force, and for the time being there is no evidence Palpatine alone was doing this or doing anything more than simply "hiding" his abilities. (which can be done.)

[White Haven]

As for Yoda getting to Palpatine...well, to paraphrase an old quote...

It's not the Sith with my name on it that worries me. It's the ten thousand others labelled 'to whom it may concern.'

[VT-16]

The Force. The Cave. Work it out.

There was only a large concentration of the Dark Side there. As stated in TPM, the Force can be concentrated around either a living creature or an object. And the Force usually needs to be used by someone in order to do anything. It seems to be a good theory to describe what happened in the cave. Luke´s state of mind made the apparition appear, not the Force alone.

I admit, I have a tough time explaining Anakin´s conception by the Force, using this theory, unless you can say the galactic mindset as a whole, made Anakin appear.

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No, it makes much more sense that Palpatine, a scheming dark side user within the vicinity of every Jedi on Coruscant, was responsible.

Without them detecting him? Uh huh. And he's SOOO fucking powerful that he can cloud the senses of EVERY FUCKING JEDI?

Yes, that is the idea, and it will be a plot-point in Ep. III, from what I´ve read.

That isn't covert by any means, anyway. That's an overt attack on the Jedi, and out of 10'000 of them I find it beggars belief that not ONE could zero in on Palpatine. You're dreaming.

Nope, that is the general idea, he´s found a way to disguise himself from the Jedi, and use the Force to influence people and events behind this "cloak".