Is there anything in Star Trek that can threaten Star Wars?

[Darth Wong]

what about the Krenim? they were in STVOY Year of Hell. their ships are out of phase with reality where they are impregneable, so the only way to destroy them is for someone inside the ship shift it out of phase by blowing up the temporal core. plus, their weapon causes temporal incursions that erase things out of history.

That is one possible interpretation of what they did. However, given the known existence of multiple parallel timelines in Trek, it seems less likely than the other interpretation. The whole concept of "temporal shielding" is ridiculous, and makes far less sense than the multiple-timeline idea, particularly since the latter idea is supported by observation.

[TheDarkling]

Wong: There was a 15 pages thread on the subject of time travel in Trek and it was basically decided that the multiple timeline idea doesnt fit at least not exclusively.

[Darth Wong]

Wong: There was a 15 pages thread on the subject of time travel in Trek and it was basically decided that the multiple timeline idea doesnt fit at least not exclusively.

Two points:
1) If using another thread to make a point, you should at least summarize what was said, rather than citing the conclusion in isolation.
2) It fits better than "temporal shielding". There is no way to make "temporal shielding" make sense and you know it. It is a fallacy of syllogism to assume that theory A is dead because you can find that it doesn't necessarily answer every question, particularly when theory B doesn't make any damned sense whatsoever, and relies upon phenomena which are neither defined or even described.

[TheDarkling]

I cant exactly summerise it because it came down to looking at about 7 or 8 examples of time travel and seeing how they fit then coming up with theories based upon it.

There were also many other reasons not based on specific examples but things in general however I will give a very brief reasno (which wasnt the only one but its reason enough for me), if the Feds of the 31st century believe that time can actually be changed since they have been using time travel for at least 200 years (they teach temporal mechanics in school even to the point of building your own temporal communicator etc) then Im going to go with their call on it unless it cant fit the facts we see (and even then Im going to have to weigh the evidence).

Heres the thread (I think) - it starts of as 29th Feds Vs GE but ends up trying to figure out the nature of trek time travel.

[TheDarkling]

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

Might help if I actually put the link in the post.

[NecronLord]

How about V'ger?

Its ability to disintegrate/digitise galaxies is quite intimidating

We come to the conclusion that it could destroy whole galaxies because there were images of galaxies in its data banks? *cough cough*

and due to the fact that it has never been shown to 'digitise' anything without destroying it, even when it was non offensive. e.g. the space station and lt ilea

Besides with a feild 82 AU in diameter the thing isn't even in turbolaser RANGE. http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=5124

[Mr Bean]

Besides with a feild 82 AU in diameter the thing isn't even in turbolaser RANGE

Ahh yes

82 AU=7,622,000,000 Miles

Know what the problem with that is?

Thats about sixteen times Large than the Solar System as Judge Today by Scientists which judge the Limit of the Solar system at a mear 500,000,000 Milles

Just where was this thing that was bigger than the entire Solar System by a Factor greater than Sixteen times?

[NecronLord]

Besides with a feild 82 AU in diameter the thing isn't even in turbolaser RANGE

Ahh yes

82 AU=7,622,000,000 Miles

Know what the problem with that is?

Thats about sixteen times Large than the Solar System as Judge Today by Scientists which judge the Limit of the Solar system at a mear 500,000,000 Milles

Just where was this thing that was bigger than the entire Solar System by a Factor greater than Sixteen times?

That is it's outer feild envelope, as in the film

It drops this envelope when it approaches the solar system.

"the cloud measures [startled voice] eitghty two AU"

[Darth Wong]

I cant exactly summerise it because it came down to looking at about 7 or 8 examples of time travel and seeing how they fit then coming up with theories based upon it.

There were also many other reasons not based on specific examples but things in general however I will give a very brief reasno (which wasnt the only one but its reason enough for me), if the Feds of the 31st century believe that time can actually be changed since they have been using time travel for at least 200 years (they teach temporal mechanics in school even to the point of building your own temporal communicator etc) then Im going to go with their call on it unless it cant fit the facts we see (and even then Im going to have to weigh the evidence).

Heres the thread (I think) - it starts of as 29th Feds Vs GE but ends up trying to figure out the nature of trek time travel.

They believe it works a certain way, therefore it must work that way, even if it gives rise to unresolvable paradoxes and they have been repeatedly shown to slap meaningless, often clearly idiotic explanations upon phenomena they encounter? This reasoning seems valid to you?

[Col. Crackpot]

the fact that the star wars empire was never able to completely tame it's own galaxy speaks volumes. Whether it takes a decade or a millenia, such a tyranical entity such as the empire will be overthrown.

lets take a look at history to find an answer. it is almost always small, technologically inferior terrorists that bring down superpowers. The barbaric hoards of Europe destroyed the Roman Empire. Rag tag rebels in the United States and India freed themselves from the once British Empire.
The masses of South Africa overthrew their racist overlords. Palistinians armed with stones and bottles and bombs destabilize Israel. Guerillas with makeshift bombs forced the English out of Ireland. AND A HANDFULL OF DESPERATELY OUTNUMBERD SHIPS AND TINY FIGHTERS DESTROYED TWO DEATH STARS.

Yes there is one thing in the star trek universe that will defeat the empire. it is something that exists in the empire own universe. THE SPIRIT OF THE REBEL!

[Darth Wong]

(sigh) regarding V'Ger:

1) If the mass/energy of an entire galaxy (or for that matter, a single star) was compressed into a ship the size of V'Ger, it would be a black hole. It was not a black hole.
2) The fact that we see 3 Klingon ships get digitized is a rather flimsy basis for a hasty generalization that everything in its vast database must have been consumed, even images of whole galaxies (particularly given the intractable physical problems cited above).
3) The 82 AU field is nothing but a cloud; it may even be an illusion. The fact that it vanishes upon demand despite its vast size indicates that it can't possibly be particularly dense or energetic.
4) The Enterprise was able to withstand several attacks from its weapon. An ISD has many orders of magnitude stronger shields than the E-Nil, which lost shielding after a dozen hits from torps which were obviously not even MT-class (see ST6).

An ISD would simply fly through the cloud, shake off a few hits from its digitizer, and pulverize the ship at its centre. Problem solved.

[NecronLord]

I cant exactly summerise it because it came down to looking at about 7 or 8 examples of time travel and seeing how they fit then coming up with theories based upon it.

There were also many other reasons not based on specific examples but things in general however I will give a very brief reasno (which wasnt the only one but its reason enough for me), if the Feds of the 31st century believe that time can actually be changed since they have been using time travel for at least 200 years (they teach temporal mechanics in school even to the point of building your own temporal communicator etc) then Im going to go with their call on it unless it cant fit the facts we see (and even then Im going to have to weigh the evidence).

Heres the thread (I think) - it starts of as 29th Feds Vs GE but ends up trying to figure out the nature of trek time travel.

They believe it works a certain way, therefore it must work that way, even if it gives rise to unresolvable paradoxes and they have been repeatedly shown to slap meaningless, often clearly idiotic explanations upon phenomena they encounter? This reasoning seems valid to you?

Oh no, its the federation pretending to be Time-Lords (and claiming to know what they are doing)


Riker


The Master

[NecronLord]

[Devil's advocate]

(sigh) regarding V'Ger:

1) If the mass/energy of an entire galaxy (or for that matter, a single star) was compressed into a ship the size of V'Ger, it would be a black hole. It was not a black hole.

if a ship tracels at C it has infinte mass

2) The fact that we see 3 Klingon ships get digitized is a rather flimsy basis for a hasty generalization that everything in its vast database must have been consumed, even images of whole galaxies (particularly given the intractable physical problems cited above).

and a space station, and a luitenant

3) The 82 AU field is nothing but a cloud; it may even be an illusion. The fact that it vanishes upon demand despite its vast size indicates that it can't possibly be particularly dense or energetic.

True, maybe the ship just left the feild {oh how truly idiotic that sounds}

4) The Enterprise was able to withstand several attacks from its weapon. An ISD has many orders of magnitude stronger shields than the E-Nil, which lost shielding after a dozen hits from torps which were obviously not even MT-class (see ST6).

True, however I could say power settings, and IIRC it lowers the ent nil's sheilds to exactly 20%, a tap to get her attention? Also when in orbit of earth the devices launched are IIRC "many orders of magnitude higher"

An ISD would simply fly through the cloud, shake off a few hits from its digitizer, and pulverize the ship at its centre. Problem solved.

Assuming it can pass through the sheild, the fact that V'ger is tactically if not necceserily strategically faster (i.e. warp drive) and has an 41AU plus weapons range sort of makes this impossible.

[/Devil's advocate]

[NecronLord]

the fact that the star wars empire was never able to completely tame it's own galaxy speaks volumes. Whether it takes a decade or a millenia, such a tyranical entity such as the empire will be overthrown.

lets take a look at history to find an answer. it is almost always small, technologically inferior terrorists that bring down superpowers. The barbaric hoards of Europe destroyed the Roman Empire. Rag tag rebels in the United States and India freed themselves from the once British Empire.
The masses of South Africa overthrew their racist overlords. Palistinians armed with stones and bottles and bombs destabilize Israel. Guerillas with makeshift bombs forced the English out of Ireland. AND A HANDFULL OF DESPERATELY OUTNUMBERD SHIPS AND TINY FIGHTERS DESTROYED TWO DEATH STARS.

Yes there is one thing in the star trek universe that will defeat the empire. it is something that exists in the empire own universe. THE SPIRIT OF THE REBEL!

This is a joke right?

please tell me it is?

[NecronLord]

Read tracels as Travels

[Darth Wong]

[Devil's advocate]if a ship tracels at C it has infinte mass

Good thing no ships ever travel at c. At millions of times c, it does not have infinite mass. And warp-driven ships don't get anywhere near c in their local frame of reference; they employ a cheat.

True, however I could say power settings, and IIRC it lowers the ent nil's sheilds to exactly 20%, a tap to get her attention? Also when in orbit of earth the devices launched are IIRC "many orders of magnitude higher"

Naturally. They would HAVE to be many orders of magnitude higher in order to sterilize the planet. This does not necessarily mean that the mass/energy of the planet would be consumed, or that they would survive turbolaser hits, or that they would be able to penetrate an ISD's shielding.

Assuming it can pass through the sheild, the fact that V'ger is tactically if not necceserily strategically faster (i.e. warp drive) and has an 41AU plus weapons range sort of makes this impossible.

41AU+ weapons range doesn't mean jack if the weapons aren't powerful enough to do the job, particularly since that ISD can microjump right on top of V'Ger and pound it to atoms.

[NecronLord]

[Devil's advocate]

[Devil's advocate]if a ship tracels at C it has infinte mass

Good thing no ships ever travel at c. At millions of times c, it does not have infinite mass. And warp-driven ships don't get anywhere near c in their local frame of reference; they employ a cheat.
And so does V'ger

True, however I could say power settings, and IIRC it lowers the ent nil's sheilds to exactly 20%, a tap to get her attention? Also when in orbit of earth the devices launched are IIRC "many orders of magnitude higher"

Naturally. They would HAVE to be many orders of magnitude higher in order to sterilize the planet. This does not necessarily mean that the mass/energy of the planet would be consumed, or that they would survive turbolaser hits, or that they would be able to penetrate an ISD's shielding.
but the digitised galaxies do suggest that they can..
Are you proposing to use TL's to destroy the blue funky bolts of death?
one of the klingon ships tried that with a photon torp

Assuming it can pass through the sheild, the fact that V'ger is tactically if not necceserily strategically faster (i.e. warp drive) and has an 41AU plus weapons range sort of makes this impossible.

41AU+ weapons range doesn't mean jack if the weapons aren't powerful enough to do the job, particularly since that ISD can microjump right on top of V'Ger and pound it to atoms.

assuming it can microjump anywhere near, plus the fact that v'ger going the other way is still faster than a tl, even at C

[/trekkies advocate ]

[Darth Wong]

And warp-driven ships don't get anywhere near c in their local frame of reference; they employ a cheat.

And so does V'ger

Don't make me hurt you

The aforementioned cheat would not solve V'ger's problem.

but the digitised galaxies do suggest that they can..

That kind of circular logic is normally used as justification for a severe beating with leaden pipes.

Are you proposing to use TL's to destroy the blue funky bolts of death? one of the klingon ships tried that with a photon torp

And a photon torp is equivalent to a turbolaser blast ... how?

assuming it can microjump anywhere near, plus the fact that v'ger going the other way is still faster than a tl, even at C.

Didn't look that fast to me.

[Ender]

Maybe some of the telepaths? I.e. the Talosions.

Sith Lord: Take and subdue Talos IV. BDZ if needed.
Grand Admiral: It will be done
---
Talosions dick with the Grand Admiral's mind making him think Corcuscant is Talos IV.

Probably not going to work due to the interplay between Sith/Jedi powers and the Talosion telepathy, not to mention the completely unknown range constraints.

The future feddies stand a decent chance: galaxy hopping transporter, phasers whose NDF works on metals, whatever the walk-through-walls technology is, and the ability to destroy an entire solar system with one fighter sized ship (assuming it wasn't a freak incident). But I don't think they are included in the initial post.

Otherwise nobody has speed, industrial capacity, or firepower to mess with SW. Telepaths might be able to "borrow" Imperial assets, but other than that I know of only one race which beats SW in any of the three categories, but they seem to not have the resources needed to exploit that advatange.

There are whole planets full of telepaths in Wars as well, and this does not present a problem for them in their own galaxy, but we should assume that in Trek it will be a major crisis?

[Isolder74]

(sigh) regarding V'Ger:

1) If the mass/energy of an entire galaxy (or for that matter, a single star) was compressed into a ship the size of V'Ger, it would be a black hole. It was not a black hole.
2) The fact that we see 3 Klingon ships get digitized is a rather flimsy basis for a hasty generalization that everything in its vast database must have been consumed, even images of whole galaxies (particularly given the intractable physical problems cited above).
3) The 82 AU field is nothing but a cloud; it may even be an illusion. The fact that it vanishes upon demand despite its vast size indicates that it can't possibly be particularly dense or energetic.
4) The Enterprise was able to withstand several attacks from its weapon. An ISD has many orders of magnitude stronger shields than the E-Nil, which lost shielding after a dozen hits from torps which were obviously not even MT-class (see ST6).

An ISD would simply fly through the cloud, shake off a few hits from its digitizer, and pulverize the ship at its centre. Problem solved.

To be fair Spock's dialogue indicates that the things in the V'Ger Library were 'recreated' AKA holograms and not exact copies of the original objects. He physically passes through the recreated station as if it was not a solid object. Later he 'mindmelds' with the 'probe' image and apparently connects with the V'Ger computer database getting a 'headache' in the process.

[Perinquus]

the fact that the star wars empire was never able to completely tame it's own galaxy speaks volumes. Whether it takes a decade or a millenia, such a tyranical entity such as the empire will be overthrown.

It could merely speak that shitty little rim worlds like Tatooine and other outlying worlds have nothing of value to make it worth the effort of fully bringing them into the Empire.

lets take a look at history to find an answer. it is almost always small, technologically inferior terrorists that bring down superpowers.

Actually, that turns out not to be the case.

The barbaric hoards of Europe destroyed the Roman Empire.

No, a full century of bloody civil wars during the 3rd century AD terribly weakened the Roman Empire and overstrained both her economy and military resources. Things were stabilized somewhat during the 4th century, but the damage to the Roman economy had already been done. In this economic slump, Rome was never able to replace her military losses from among the citizenry, so they took to recruiting foreign mercenaries (never a really great idea). Most of these mercenaries were barbarians. The collapse of the western half of the Empire was not so much an invasion by barbarian hordes (though there were some incursions) as a gradual realization by barbarian tribes that had been settled inside Imperial territory by the Roman government itself, that they were the ones who were now really running things.

In essence Rome was not destroyed by barbarians, it self destructed starting in the 3rd century, and the barbarians merely helped to complete the process.

Rag tag rebels in the United States and India freed themselves from the once British Empire.

The United States was only able to defeat the British through a combination of luck (the British sent some of the most leatherheaded generals in military history to command their forces in North America), and the help of another superpower of the day - France (Yes, I know, hard as it is to believe, France was once a military force to be reckoned with, but that was long ago). Without that help, we never would have been able to do it.

India was let go because after two world wars, the British economy could simply no longer take the strain of maintaining overseas possessions. Despite what many will tell you, the colonial empires of the 19th century were a net loss, economically, for the imperialist countries that took them.

The masses of South Africa overthrew their racist overlords. Palistinians armed with stones and bottles and bombs destabilize Israel.

South Africa was also subjected to intense international pressure to change its racist policy of apartheid. There is no community of nations that can bring similar pressure to bear on the Empire of SW; it has no peers.

The Palestinians are not about to bring down the Israeli government, and if Israel operated like the Empire does, there would not be a Palestinian alive in the Middle East today. The Empire would simply BDZ or superlaser any world in open revolt. Worlds not in revolt, but where guerrillas operate might get the same treatment, or they might be garrisoned by loyal troops who would ruthlessly retaliate against the civilian population for any acts of terrorism.

Guerillas with makeshift bombs forced the English out of Ireland. AND A HANDFULL OF DESPERATELY OUTNUMBERD SHIPS AND TINY FIGHTERS DESTROYED TWO DEATH STARS.

The handful of ships were able to exploit a major design flaw in the first case, and in the second case they only succeeded because they got lucky and the Emperor miscalculated.

And read about Michael Collins. The Irish Republican Army that operated in the 1920s was not a bunch of guys with makeshift bombs. they were highly organized, well led, and increasingly well armed. And even so they almost lost. Collins had to negotiate a free state that would remain in the British commonwealth, rather than the independent Ireland he and his government wanted, and he also had to agree to the partition of the North, because the British would not bend on these issues, and Collins knew that there was no way the Irish could achieve these aims by force - in fact, the Irish military effort was within weeks of collapse if fighting should resume. And again, the British were forced to the negotiating table as much by world opinion as they were by the IRA - British forces in Ireland were committing atrocities, and word was getting out. But if the Empire should commit atrocities, what other powers are there that can pressure the Empire to change its behavior? None.

Yes there is one thing in the star trek universe that will defeat the empire. it is something that exists in the empire own universe. THE SPIRIT OF THE REBEL!

Rebels historically have always needed outside help. There is, in fact, no resistance movement that has ever succeeded in freeing its country from a foreign occupier without outside help. There is no power even remotely close to the level of the SW Empire to provide such help.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

In the Director's Edition of ST TMP, V'ger's cloud is only 2 AU across. They changed it.

[NecronLord]

And warp-driven ships don't get anywhere near c in their local frame of reference; they employ a cheat.

And so does V'ger

Don't make me hurt you

well it does..

The aforementioned cheat would not solve V'ger's problem.

I never said it had to use the same "cheat"

but the digitised galaxies do suggest that they can..

That kind of circular logic is normally used as justification for a severe beating with leaden pipes.

what, where, why, when who how uhhhh

Are you proposing to use TL's to destroy the blue funky bolts of death? one of the klingon ships tried that with a photon torp

And a photon torp is equivalent to a turbolaser blast ... how?

[darkstar]clearly the ability to destroy a photon torp translates perfectly.[darkstar]

assuming it can microjump anywhere near, plus the fact that v'ger going the other way is still faster than a tl, even at C.

Didn't look that fast to me.

well in the novelisation the reason they have to send the ent-nil out (other than story constraints) is that their other ships are not capable of catching up with it. {which I might add speaks of the lamentable fleet size of the feds e.g. how many ships are there in the sol system they could send? one, undergoing refit. }

[NecronLord]

In the Director's Edition of ST TMP, V'ger's cloud is only 2 AU across. They changed it.

but which is cannon? the producers and companies, i.e. those who own the rights? or the directors?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Don't know.

But they also fixed the "Vulcan has no moon" problem as well.

But in my opinion, 2 AU is a lot more reasonable for an ojject of V'ger's size than 82 AU is.