Oops... SW weapons ranges

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-13 01:08pm

Falcon Pic

Han at this point is saying "he's almost in range".

The TIE is no more than 100-200 meters distant at most.

Visuals are the ultimate canon.

What does this mean?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-13 01:15pm

It means that you haven't been checking Mike's site. I suggest you look at the Wong-Darkstar debate. I suggest you check better before posting threads like this.

EDIT: On this page, http://h4h.com/louis/falconrange/falconrange.html, Wayne Poe had an excellent discussion about MF's weapon range (in response to Dorkstar). He has had some problems with his site, but go there when it's working.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-10-13 03:35pm

He's firing from the cockpit (which is known officially - EGV&V, Courtship of Princess Leia) to reduce accuracy. He's aparently visually targeting a ship that would have a TINY targeting profile (look at how narrow the ship is from front and rear - you HAVE to get close to hit it accurately!). EW is a third factor (either as a possible side effect of Alderaan's destruction, which is implied in the novel, or because of the DS1, or because of the TIE itself.)

Its also known the Falcon is always in a nigh-constant state of repairs/upgrade/maintenance, and its possible that at this point the Targeting computer needed replacement or repair and so was not working as well as it should.

We should also note that at the end when he saves Luke from VAder (as demonstrated by Wayne numerous times), Han fired on Vader's Wingmen from a range at LEAST an order of magnitude greater than in the Alderaan-destruction scene, and probably much more than that. Semi-canon or official sourcecs have placed the Falcon's effective weapons range as between hundreds of kilometers and hundreds of thousands of kilometers (depending on source and variables.)

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-10-13 03:46pm

There's in X-wing:Alliance(PC game) you can detect weapons lock (both cannons and warheads) as far as I know there's nothing in higher canon that counterdicts this. so Han was probaly not using he's targeting computer at all. It's one to try to fire a TIE that doesn't your gonna shoot it and shooting a TIE during combat (Falcon is no warship).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-13 05:13pm

Why does this even matter? I don't know why anybody thinks this proves anything about the weapons range of any vessel other than the Falcon, which at this time was nothing more than a smuggler's freighter. Sure, in ROTJ it was used as a combat vessel, but by then Solo was a General in the Rebellion and the ship had undoubtedly been heavily upgraded.

In ANH, he didn't even have enough money to pay Jabba; what would make anyone think he would be able to build a freighter capable of taking out fighters at range? The Falcon was built to run, not to fight. He didn't even know the TIE was there until it took a shot at him and then tried to draw him toward the Death Star!

And when they were trying to escape the Death Star later, he had to use those crappy turrets which were never used again in TESB or ROTJ. The widespread use of this scene as an attack against SW weaponry is typical of Darkstar's fallacious mentality: find the weakest example you can and then write a whole page about it while ignoring other examples of the class and acting as though it is representative of the entire group (Falcon for all SW weapons, AT-ST for all Imperial armour, the rubber part of a scout trooper's uniform for the entire armour system, etc). It's meant to appeal to people who are too stupid to see through this blindingly obvious fallacy, which would explain the poor intellectual calibre of the few people who actually take him seriously.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-10-13 05:37pm

those crappy turrets which were never used again in TESB or ROTJ

There were some cut-scenes from the ROTJ battle showing Rebel gunners manning those turrets. But I´m not sure this counts. Nor is it an endorsement of the idea that the Falcon´s cannons in ANH represent all military-grade cannons, if anyone was wondering. ^_^;;

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-13 06:29pm

Darth Wong wrote:Why does this even matter? I don't know why anybody thinks this proves anything about the weapons range of any vessel other than the Falcon, which at this time was nothing more than a smuggler's freighter. Sure, in ROTJ it was used as a combat vessel, but by then Solo was a General in the Rebellion and the ship had undoubtedly been heavily upgraded.

In ANH, he didn't even have enough money to pay Jabba; what would make anyone think he would be able to build a freighter capable of taking out fighters at range? The Falcon was built to run, not to fight. He didn't even know the TIE was there until it took a shot at him and then tried to draw him toward the Death Star!

And when they were trying to escape the Death Star later, he had to use those crappy turrets which were never used again in TESB or ROTJ. The widespread use of this scene as an attack against SW weaponry is typical of Darkstar's fallacious mentality: find the weakest example you can and then write a whole page about it while ignoring other examples of the class and acting as though it is representative of the entire group (Falcon for all SW weapons, AT-ST for all Imperial armour, the rubber part of a scout trooper's uniform for the entire armour system, etc). It's meant to appeal to people who are too stupid to see through this blindingly obvious fallacy, which would explain the poor intellectual calibre of the few people who actually take him seriously.

Good points.

Conceeded.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-18 11:17am

Never used again? They're used pretty clearly in the ROTJ battle scene -- check the scene when the Falcon dives under the medical frigate. I'm fairly certain it's firing from the turrets at this point.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-18 11:59am

McC wrote:Never used again? They're used pretty clearly in the ROTJ battle scene -- check the scene when the Falcon dives under the medical frigate. I'm fairly certain it's firing from the turrets at this point.

Nope, it's firing from the front, and it's chasing the TIE like a fighter would, rather than playing B-17 bomber the way it did in ANH.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-18 12:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:
McC wrote:Never used again? They're used pretty clearly in the ROTJ battle scene -- check the scene when the Falcon dives under the medical frigate. I'm fairly certain it's firing from the turrets at this point.
Nope, it's firing from the front, and it's chasing the TIE like a fighter would, rather than playing B-17 bomber the way it did in ANH.

Mike, since you have both the wide- and fullscreen versions of the DVD's perhaps it's easier for you to judge (I have the widescreen edition), but to me it seems that only one shot at least appear to come from the mandibles (the inside cockpit view), while the scene showing Falcon chasing down the TIE shows the shots coming from the ventral turret.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-18 12:11pm

Huh...didn't even think it had more than one front gun...

ntstlkr · Post by **ntstlkr** » 2004-10-20 03:25pm

Cheers All,

I haven't checked the movies to be certain but it was my impression that the MF's manouvering was much more violent and energetic in ESB and ROTJ than in ANH (of course the RL rationalization is the improvement in sfx photo technique).

I would think that gunners would be hard pressed to do anything worthwhile in that kind of a situation (what with all the manouvering between the MF and targets, a gunner might get a second or two at most to aquire a target, bring the guns to bare, and fire).

It would be better to have the guns locked down into position and fire control slaved to the cockpit.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-20 06:34pm

It's possible that with the money he got from the alliance in ANH, he might have upgraded the avionics significantly, allowing for much sharper manouvering.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-10-24 01:47pm

He most likely did make some major upgrades after he "joined" the Rebellion. Too bad they didn't pay off his debt to Jabba though...

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2004-10-24 02:32pm

Not sure where I heard this but was it explained that the viewports can show a zoomed view at all?

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-10-24 05:29pm

Meest wrote:Not sure where I heard this but was it explained that the viewports can show a zoomed view at all?

The ITWOT.

Transparisteel viewports equipped with magnification scanners that provide close-up views of deep space battles. (pg 44)

While this specifically refers to Palpatine's tower on the DSII, it goes without saying that this is a common technology in a society such as SW.