Small but important differences in ships

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-10-13 07:53am

Easy way to get over the live-fire problem with training on the holodeck

TURN OFF THE SAFETIES

For once, the Holodeck would be killing people, and supposed to be doing so

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-10-13 09:47am

Solauren wrote:Easy way to get over the live-fire problem with training on the holodeck

TURN OFF THE SAFETIES

For once, the Holodeck would be killing people, and supposed to be doing so

Or simply make it so that hit, while not fatal, are extremely painful. While positive reinforcement is best (in the long term), negative reinforcement (ohmyfuckinggoditburns) will work, too.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2004-10-13 10:12am

You mean like the trainging guns Jack uses in SG-1 theyu shoot red bullets. Can't think of name he uses it to stun a air force cadet during a training eval

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-10-13 11:02am

dragon wrote:You mean like the trainging guns Jack uses in SG-1 theyu shoot red bullets. Can't think of name he uses it to stun a air force cadet during a training eval

Teal'c: Intar
Jack: Short for.
Teal'c: Intar.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-13 11:06am

The psychological impact of live fire is not physical pain; it is fear of death. Pain inducers would not simulate that. Paintball in a T-shirt gives you physical pain.

ANGELUS · Post by **ANGELUS** » 2004-10-13 11:43am

Darth Wong wrote:The psychological impact of live fire is not physical pain; it is fear of death. Pain inducers would not simulate that. Paintball in a T-shirt gives you physical pain.

You can simply program a hostile enviroment in the hollodeck. Then you divide the crew into teams that fight each other in that enviroment. That way you use it as a very realistic training facility with real life enemies and maybe even real weapons.

Besides, if you are right and they are not useful as training facilities... then what would you use them for? running mistery novels? that would be a waste of resources and space, and that can't be done in a spaceship, even a big one. Ok, they can be used to run simulations and stuff like that, but Idon't think they must be used just for officers' fun.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-13 12:00pm

ANGELUS wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The psychological impact of live fire is not physical pain; it is fear of death. Pain inducers would not simulate that. Paintball in a T-shirt gives you physical pain.
You can simply program a hostile enviroment in the hollodeck. Then you divide the crew into teams that fight each other in that enviroment. That way you use it as a very realistic training facility with real life enemies and maybe even real weapons.

Besides, if you are right and they are not useful as training facilities... then what would you use them for? running mistery novels? that would be a waste of resources and space, and that can't be done in a spaceship, even a big one. Ok, they can be used to run simulations and stuff like that, but Idon't think they must be used just for officers' fun.

No differnt then the Paintball scenario unless you actually have the thought of dying.

It's why people who spar are shitty when it comes down to when someone with live steel is prepared to slice them in half. Nothing in training prepares you for your blood and knowing saying stop is not going to stop said person.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2004-10-13 12:11pm

But that sparring can and does lay the ground work so that first time someone pulls steel on you you might last long to learn more. I can vouch for that by experience. If it had not been for the sparring I did in martial arts when that street punk pulled a knife I would not had know enough to defend my self.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-13 12:17pm

dragon wrote:But that sparring can and does lay the ground work so that first time someone pulls steel on you you might last long to learn more. I can vouch for that by experience. If it had not been for the sparring I did in martial arts when that street punk pulled a knife I would not had know enough to defend my self.

Different situations...when you get something into a fracas that can kill you, you take much more notice.

Muggers can get beaten by a few Self defense classes, having multiple people shooting at you and any one of them WILL kill you is not even in the same arena.

I've taken more Martial Arts to handle most people with knives...but the instant I hear a gunshot, I run. Soliders have to get over that and hold their ground...something that unless you have a live fire workouts will not get a person over.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2004-10-13 12:41pm

True having bullets shot at you tends to make you focus on the immediate. But personally I would rather get the training while not be shot at with real ammo. Man night assault course still brings back memories.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-10-13 02:46pm

Vympel wrote:Wasn't there some Voyager episode or something where they were on the holodeck and Klingon's beat German Wehrmacht (WW2) soldiers, or some such ridiculous nonsense? Speaks volumes of the intelligence of the holodeck programmers of that scenario, that.

Reminds me of playing Quake in God Mode....

Seriously, though, the Klingons may just played with the lowest difficulty setting.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-13 02:52pm

dragon wrote:But that sparring can and does lay the ground work so that first time someone pulls steel on you you might last long to learn more. I can vouch for that by experience. If it had not been for the sparring I did in martial arts when that street punk pulled a knife I would not had know enough to defend my self.

A trained person can beat an untrained person, therefore live-fire training is no better than no-danger training?

This does not compute.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-13 02:54pm

Holodeck's would be invaluable for training purposes for soldiers because it can simulate reality without fear of death unlike anything we can currently do. Live fire exercises have a value, but ultimately they are worthless in wargames because you need to be able to simulate battle without killing your opponent for real.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-13 02:58pm

Alyeska wrote:Holodeck's would be invaluable for training purposes for soldiers because it can simulate reality without fear of death unlike anything we can currently do. Live fire exercises have a value, but ultimately they are worthless in wargames because you need to be able to simulate battle without killing your opponent for real.

I remember Rob Wilson once mentioned that it was amazing how much worse a typical recruit would perform during his first live-fire exercise. You can argue that it's "worthless in wargames", but soldiers who haven't had it are going to be questionable, and as I said before, this does neatly explain the ability of Klingons to mow through Federation personnel on the ground until they run into a main (experienced) character.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-10-13 03:07pm

Alyeska wrote:Live fire exercises have a value, but ultimately they are worthless in wargames because you need to be able to simulate battle without killing your opponent for real.

In wargames, yes, but to prepare soldiers for the experience of coming under real fire, it's invaluable.

I think with holodecks you can simulate live fire exercises (by turning off safeties) where you can actually kill your opponents, because they're holograms anyway (provided the AI is intelligent enough to behave like real life opponents). Question: why we never see the feature implemented by Starfleet anyway?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-13 03:24pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Holodeck's would be invaluable for training purposes for soldiers because it can simulate reality without fear of death unlike anything we can currently do. Live fire exercises have a value, but ultimately they are worthless in wargames because you need to be able to simulate battle without killing your opponent for real.
I remember Rob Wilson once mentioned that it was amazing how much worse a typical recruit would perform during his first live-fire exercise. You can argue that it's "worthless in wargames", but soldiers who haven't had it are going to be questionable, and as I said before, this does neatly explain the ability of Klingons to mow through Federation personnel on the ground until they run into a main (experienced) character.

Who says the two have to be mutualy exclusive. Introduce live fire excercises to the soldiers to prepare them for the real deal, but also use the holodeck for the most realistic wargames they can do. The holodeck would be far superior then MILES laser tag gear currently used. It would also allow fully integrated simulations. Imagine having infantry in one holodeck linked up to naval personel in another holodeck.

When it comes to wargames (which is what most training after the first 2 years becomes) the holodeck would be an invaluable tool. It can show situations that might otherwise be impossible to portray accurately.

Hell, I've got a friend who is in martial arts and he would love to use a holodeck because it would let him go all out against a compute opponent. Safety factors in the real world prevent realistic training situations. The holodeck can simulate much of this. There is still the issue of going at it for the first time, but if live fire excercises are still used, it mitigates this problem.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2004-10-13 05:32pm

dragon wrote:Now be fair its not the the Klingon fault they have poor equipment.
And while the holodeck might not be as good as live fire exercises its still better than sitting around not training.

I mean after all even today alot of our military training is done in simulators then honed in live fire exercises. Besides that how they do their Koybashy Maru(SP) scenerio. Look at ST6 they were using a simulator and it seemed effective.

Lots of sci-fi books use simulators as well as live fire.

That was ST2 not ST6.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-10-13 05:53pm

Ghost Rider wrote: Soliders have to get over that and hold their ground...something that unless you have a live fire workouts will not get a person over.

Thats the whole purpose of drills. So that when combat happens your instinct takes over and you perform how you've been trained. Live-fire is a great training tool but it's worthless without the basic framework.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-13 06:27pm

Alyeska wrote:Who says the two have to be mutualy exclusive. Introduce live fire excercises to the soldiers to prepare them for the real deal, but also use the holodeck for the most realistic wargames they can do. The holodeck would be far superior then MILES laser tag gear currently used. It would also allow fully integrated simulations. Imagine having infantry in one holodeck linked up to naval personel in another holodeck.

It would be useful as long as both sides are human. As far as I can tell, Starfleet likes to pit human trainees against computer-controlled opponents and/or targets, and not particularly bright ones at that.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-10-13 06:35pm

Darth Wong wrote: It would be useful as long as both sides are human. As far as I can tell, Starfleet likes to pit human trainees against computer-controlled opponents and/or targets, and not particularly bright ones at that.

Thats the inherent problem with simulators, a computer opponent will ALWAYS be more limited than a human one. Starfleets best bet is after training their troops in the fundementals is to engage in live-fire exercises, each one more challenging then the last.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-10-13 07:15pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Who says the two have to be mutualy exclusive. Introduce live fire excercises to the soldiers to prepare them for the real deal, but also use the holodeck for the most realistic wargames they can do. The holodeck would be far superior then MILES laser tag gear currently used. It would also allow fully integrated simulations. Imagine having infantry in one holodeck linked up to naval personel in another holodeck.
It would be useful as long as both sides are human. As far as I can tell, Starfleet likes to pit human trainees against computer-controlled opponents and/or targets, and not particularly bright ones at that.

One of the best ways around this is to incorperate two holodecks together. Red team and Blue team. That way they are fighting real people and you train much more effectively.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-10-13 07:24pm

Alyeska wrote: One of the best ways around this is to incorperate two holodecks together. Red team and Blue team. That way they are fighting real people and you train much more effectively.

They'd still know that they are in a simulation though. And even though live-fire ex's are usually against targets, you know that if you wander into your buddy's line of fire, your going to die. To say nothing of the risk's involved with live grenades and other explosive's.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-10-13 08:52pm

Sir Sirius wrote:Are you sure, I just watched "The Killing Game" and I couldn't find such a scene, infact I couldn't find an MG42 in that episode at all?

Yeah I was wondering about that reference too. All I remember was a bunch of Germans hiding behind sandbags -- no heavy machine guns. I think they might be referring to the scene where the Klingons charge the Germans behind the sandbags, and the German officer gets killed by a Klingon... might have just missed it, I'm working off memory too.

I think there might have been two parts (two episodes) with the Nazi Hirogen, not sure. If they did charge the machine gun emplacement, did we get any good shots of the bullets going through Klingon armor?

Brian

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-13 08:55pm

I recall that they had a machinegun, but it's always possible that I remembered incorrectly; it's been several years since I saw that episode and I was not particularly keen on seeing it again. But even if they only had sidearms and SMGs, it's still ridiculous for them to get overrun by screaming, knife-wielding morons.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-10-13 09:03pm

In a Star Trek novel (non-canon, I know), they used hypnosis to make Cadet Tasha Yar believe the holodeck simulation was real, so she would gain proper combat experience.

And her opponents were security personal in custum