SW books reading order

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Post by Sunstreaker »

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Having read many of the SW books, I have to recommend:

Zahn's Thrawn trilogy
Zahn's Hand of Thrawn duology
(stop here)

But if you absolutely must read more, then I suggest you try a Peter David ST book or a Stephen King book or something. Seriously, why do you want to torture yourself?
All this wanking aside go with what BtG said. Zahn's novels are a few steps above the rest in terms of story, characterization, and enjoyment. Oh yeah, and you might even become more of a Star Wars fan after reading them.


Read them in the following order:

Thrawn trilogy
Heir to the Empire
Dark Force Rising
The Last Command

Hand of Thrawn duology
Specter of the Past
Vision of the Future

I recommend Survivor's Quest as well, but I loved the main characters so much I could enjoy the novel without the epic story of Zahn’s previous books.
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Post by Stofsk »

Guardsman Bass wrote:Maybe so, but I thought in Spectre of the Past(my memory is kind of hazy, it was a while ago that I read it) Pellaeon(who HAD watched Thrawn die) didn't believe that he was back, and I remember Leia(I think) saying that when Thrawn had mounted his last campaign "He had a quarter of the former Empire's resources. Now he back, but he has almost nothing."
Both Leia and Pellaeon kept their wits about them. Everyone else was walking around with curious brown stains on their trouser-bottoms. 8)
I suppose, but it seems like the last thing Thrawn would do.
No, it really isn't. Thrawn was always an arrogant, or overconfident is a better word, character. Rightly or wrongly, his confidence in his own abilities is a clear character trait; the problem is, he was too confident at times. I see nothing wrong with him making errors in judgement, which even he readily concedes.
Thrawn isn't a bloody genius you know.
AHA, AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA!
Oh come on. The Thrawn Trilogy wasn't bad at this, which is one of the reasons why I love it, but are you telling me that the Duology didn't push this idea down our throats?

No I'm not talking about the strategy and tactics. I think Thrawn, while not a genius at it, I do think he was highly talented. Remember, the term genius implies someone who is unparalleled, which is not the case with Thrawn; he was out-thought on a couple occassions, Bel-Iblis thwarted him, Ackbar put up a pretty decent fight at Bilbringi (well enough for Pellaeon to sound a retreat instead of fighting on), Han outmaneuvered him at Sluis Van. He's not unassailable, and one of the dangerous things about fighting an enemy is the reputation: Thrawn is considered undefeatable, therefore he is. Unfortunately he made a number of tactical and strategic mistakes or blunders; again, there's nothing wrong with this, he's an imperfect character. If he was perfect, then the heroes would have lost.

No, when I derisively refer to him as a 'genius' I mean the tendency in others to think of him as perfect in all fields. Thrawn-fanboys notwithstanding, this trait also enters into the books (thank you, Zahn). Notice in Spectre or Vision, one or the other, Mara said something to the effect of "If Palpatine was one step ahead, Thrawn was ten."? Uh-huh, Thrawn has precog that rivals a Sith lord now? What about "Thrawn could easily manage the intrigue of the Emperor's court." What the fuck? He's an alien, in an unfamiliar environment, and Zahn wants us to believe that he not only swum in a sink-or-swim situation, but thrived? Be reasonable.

I like Thrawn, I think he's a good character, a worthy adversary for the heroes, and unique in the EU, but I stop and draw the line at considering him perfect and a 'genius'.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

What I disliked was not Thrawn but people's ideas of him.

When Zahn writes Thrawn, he wrote him capable...when he had people describe Thrawn, you'd expect the man to take a single horse and one soldier and dethrone the Emperor.

That's my take.

As for reading...I'd throw in Dark Empire. Aside from the Emperor nearly going DBZ level shit...the story is pretty decent and the scale is good. Wish they gave more meat to it, but for a 6 parter it was good. Avoid though it's sequels.
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Post by Stofsk »

Ghost Rider wrote:What I disliked was not Thrawn but people's ideas of him.
Yes, exactly. That's what I was trying to say, admittedly in a more verbose way.
As for reading...I'd throw in Dark Empire. Aside from the Emperor nearly going DBZ level shit...the story is pretty decent and the scale is good. Wish they gave more meat to it, but for a 6 parter it was good. Avoid though it's sequels.
I don't think DE2 was that bad... it was dumb, but in a way so was DE1. Both had the same artist though, and having consistency between the two is important.

If you want comics though, the SW Clone Wars tpbs are a good read. And the artwork is fantastic. Very well done, and the story and writing isn't as shit as some of the crap that has been produced. (thank you, KJA) Plus, seeing the busty Aayla Secura is always fun. :o ;)

Also, if comics are your thing I'd throw in the Classic Star Wars comics written by Archie Goodwin, and drawn by Al Williamson. It has a more intelligent Ackbar origin, the adventures are cool and fun, and though it's a bit repetitive - it was adapted into comic book format from newspaper serial cartoons - the artwork is phenomenal. Very unique and stylish.
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Post by Sunstreaker »

Stofsk wrote:Notice in Spectre or Vision, one or the other, Mara said something to the effect of "If Palpatine was one step ahead, Thrawn was ten."? Uh-huh, Thrawn has precog that rivals a Sith lord now? What about "Thrawn could easily manage the intrigue of the Emperor's court." What the fuck? He's an alien, in an unfamiliar environment, and Zahn wants us to believe that he not only swum in a sink-or-swim situation, but thrived? Be reasonable.
The Emperor was pretty pathetic in RotJ, and his foresight was limited. Force sensitivity does not equate to being a superior strategist. I don't care how powerful Palpy was; he lost with multiple advantages (and that was the point). Spoiler (for the thread starter):And Thrawn did not survive in the court. By all public accounts he was banished. Dude, just beat the Thrawn fan whores into a bloody pulp instead of going anti-whatever. There is no super sw character, except for R2 :)
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

Tatooine Ghost is a good, fun read. If nothing else, you get the fairly detailed description of an angry Wookie (Chewie) cracking skulls, and Storm Troopers imitating zombie-movie zombies. It also serves as a "lead-up" to the original Thrawn triology.

On related notes, I've finally picked up the last two books of the NJO. As soon as I finish rereading (Simon R Green's) Swords of Haven, I can finally get NJO over and done with, for better or worse... :lol:
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Post by Mlenk »

Mlenk wrote:I'd avoid the prequel novels. IMO they're shit.
I take that back. I thought that Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter was an entertaining read. It was certainly a helluva lot better than say, any of the Clone War novels.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

There's a few more I liked. As for recommend:

Courtship of Princess Leia. Yeah, kill me for liking a book with the all-powerful Hapes Cluster with their all-powerful sixty-three planets, but I enjoyed this book.

New Rebellion The premise was kind of lame, but I actually still liked reading it.

X-Wing Trilogy Enough said.

I Jedi. I liked Corran Horn, so I'm biased. But I actually enjoyed this book, and it's kind of unique- it's the only first-person SW book I've ever read.
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Post by JME2 »

Guardsman Bass wrote: I Jedi. I liked Corran Horn, so I'm biased. But I actually enjoyed this book, and it's kind of unique- it's the only first-person SW book I've ever read.
It's the only first-person SW book period, if memory serves me correctly.
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Post by Crazedwraith »

Guardsman Bass wrote:
X-Wing Trilogy Enough said.
X-Wing Trilogy? The series is Nine books long. Not three.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:
X-Wing Trilogy Enough said.
X-Wing Trilogy? The series is Nine books long. Not three.
Oops! Sorry, X-Wing SERIES. :oops:

Incidently, my favorite was the one after the Kryptos Trap (Christ, it's been so long I don't even remember the title . . .)
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Post by JME2 »

Guardsman Bass wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:
X-Wing Trilogy Enough said.
X-Wing Trilogy? The series is Nine books long. Not three.
Oops! Sorry, X-Wing SERIES. :oops:

Incidently, my favorite was the one after the Kryptos Trap (Christ, it's been so long I don't even remember the title . . .)
The Bacta War, I believe.
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Stofsk wrote:No I'm not talking about the strategy and tactics. I think Thrawn, while not a genius at it, I do think he was highly talented. Remember, the term genius implies someone who is unparalleled, which is not the case with Thrawn; he was out-thought on a couple occassions, Bel-Iblis thwarted him,
Where?
Stofsk wrote:Ackbar put up a pretty decent fight at Bilbringi (well enough for Pellaeon to sound a retreat instead of fighting on),
Pellaeon said that Thrawn could have won the battle, but he (Pellaeon) couldn't have.
Stofsk wrote:Han outmaneuvered him at Sluis Van.
Actuallly, Thrawn did well there. And Han only won his partial victory through pure luck.
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Post by Praxis »

Guardsman Bass wrote:There's a few more I liked. As for recommend:

Courtship of Princess Leia. Yeah, kill me for liking a book with the all-powerful Hapes Cluster with their all-powerful sixty-three planets, but I enjoyed this book.
Nothing wrong with the Hapans, but this book was horrible.
New Rebellion The premise was kind of lame, but I actually still liked reading it.
Also, one of the lamest books I've ever read.
X-Wing Trilogy Enough said.

I Jedi. I liked Corran Horn, so I'm biased. But I actually enjoyed this book, and it's kind of unique- it's the only first-person SW book I've ever read.
These ones are awesome.
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Post by Stofsk »

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:
Stofsk wrote:No I'm not talking about the strategy and tactics. I think Thrawn, while not a genius at it, I do think he was highly talented. Remember, the term genius implies someone who is unparalleled, which is not the case with Thrawn; he was out-thought on a couple occassions, Bel-Iblis thwarted him,
Where?
At the Katana fleet. Coruscant. And he had been outsmarting Imps for years, IIRC Thrawn commented on it. And that's just Bel-Iblis.

He also didn't guard his flanks as well as he could have, or should have. Wayland didn't have the defences necessary to protect from a large-scale assault, or even a small-scale, commando strike. Using C'Baoth was a risky endeavour which, as it turns out, backfired on him. And the Noghri turned on him because he dealt with them poorly. He didn't seem to include his Staff Admirals into planning sessions; only Pellaeon was seen to do that. These were all mistakes. When one of his crew does a mistake, he kills them. When he does a mistake... he gets lauded as a Strategic Genius (TM).

He was a risktaker and the opposite of a cautious commander. Not every plan he made was a success; if it were, he would have won and the Alliance could have done nothing to stop him. He was overconfident, and made errors in judgement. He made leaps in logic, which often turned out to be correct but they could have easily backfired on him, and he was lucky at times, and unlucky at other times. For this, why would he be considered a genius?
Stofsk wrote:Ackbar put up a pretty decent fight at Bilbringi (well enough for Pellaeon to sound a retreat instead of fighting on),
Pellaeon said that Thrawn could have won the battle, but he (Pellaeon) couldn't have.
And Pellaeon is to be trusted with his tactical analysis why? If the Imperial fleet was in a dominating position, then why would he retreat? The only thing I can think of is the Imp fleet was outnumbered and would require Thrawn's tactical insight to put the right ships in the right place. When he died, it was clear that the Imps were outclassed. If they weren't, Pellaeon would have pushed on.
Stofsk wrote:Han outmaneuvered him at Sluis Van.
Actuallly, Thrawn did well there. And Han only won his partial victory through pure luck.
In other words, Han outmaneuvered him at Sluis Van. And Thrawn didn't do well there, he failed his primary objective - to capture ships.
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Post by The Cleric »

Stofsk wrote:
StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:
Stofsk wrote:No I'm not talking about the strategy and tactics. I think Thrawn, while not a genius at it, I do think he was highly talented. Remember, the term genius implies someone who is unparalleled, which is not the case with Thrawn; he was out-thought on a couple occassions, Bel-Iblis thwarted him,
Where?
At the Katana fleet. Coruscant. And he had been outsmarting Imps for years, IIRC Thrawn commented on it. And that's just Bel-Iblis.

He also didn't guard his flanks as well as he could have, or should have. Wayland didn't have the defences necessary to protect from a large-scale assault, or even a small-scale, commando strike. Using C'Baoth was a risky endeavour which, as it turns out, backfired on him. And the Noghri turned on him because he dealt with them poorly. He didn't seem to include his Staff Admirals into planning sessions; only Pellaeon was seen to do that. These were all mistakes. When one of his crew does a mistake, he kills them. When he does a mistake... he gets lauded as a Strategic Genius (TM).

He was a risktaker and the opposite of a cautious commander. Not every plan he made was a success; if it were, he would have won and the Alliance could have done nothing to stop him. He was overconfident, and made errors in judgement. He made leaps in logic, which often turned out to be correct but they could have easily backfired on him, and he was lucky at times, and unlucky at other times. For this, why would he be considered a genius?
Ummm... Thrawn got away with almost the entire Katana fleet. And he wasn't there to command the battle where the SD was hit. And the Couruscant blockade was a success.
Stofsk wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Ackbar put up a pretty decent fight at Bilbringi (well enough for Pellaeon to sound a retreat instead of fighting on),
Pellaeon said that Thrawn could have won the battle, but he (Pellaeon) couldn't have.
And Pellaeon is to be trusted with his tactical analysis why? If the Imperial fleet was in a dominating position, then why would he retreat? The only thing I can think of is the Imp fleet was outnumbered and would require Thrawn's tactical insight to put the right ships in the right place. When he died, it was clear that the Imps were outclassed. If they weren't, Pellaeon would have pushed on.
Correct. Thrawn's ability was the only thing allowing the Imperials to pull out amazing victories.
Stofsk wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Han outmaneuvered him at Sluis Van.
Actuallly, Thrawn did well there. And Han only won his partial victory through pure luck.
In other words, Han outmaneuvered him at Sluis Van. And Thrawn didn't do well there, he failed his primary objective - to capture ships.
That was simply the preliminary. And not achieving your primary objective =! defeat. He AT THE VERY LEAST massivly disabled many Republic ships, a partial victory at least.
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Post by Praxis »

Stofsk wrote:
StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:
Stofsk wrote:No I'm not talking about the strategy and tactics. I think Thrawn, while not a genius at it, I do think he was highly talented. Remember, the term genius implies someone who is unparalleled, which is not the case with Thrawn; he was out-thought on a couple occassions, Bel-Iblis thwarted him,
Where?
At the Katana fleet. Coruscant. And he had been outsmarting Imps for years, IIRC Thrawn commented on it. And that's just Bel-Iblis.

He also didn't guard his flanks as well as he could have, or should have. Wayland didn't have the defences necessary to protect from a large-scale assault, or even a small-scale, commando strike. Using C'Baoth was a risky endeavour which, as it turns out, backfired on him. And the Noghri turned on him because he dealt with them poorly. He didn't seem to include his Staff Admirals into planning sessions; only Pellaeon was seen to do that. These were all mistakes. When one of his crew does a mistake, he kills them. When he does a mistake... he gets lauded as a Strategic Genius (TM).

He was a risktaker and the opposite of a cautious commander. Not every plan he made was a success; if it were, he would have won and the Alliance could have done nothing to stop him. He was overconfident, and made errors in judgement. He made leaps in logic, which often turned out to be correct but they could have easily backfired on him, and he was lucky at times, and unlucky at other times. For this, why would he be considered a genius?
Stofsk wrote:Ackbar put up a pretty decent fight at Bilbringi (well enough for Pellaeon to sound a retreat instead of fighting on),
Pellaeon said that Thrawn could have won the battle, but he (Pellaeon) couldn't have.
And Pellaeon is to be trusted with his tactical analysis why? If the Imperial fleet was in a dominating position, then why would he retreat? The only thing I can think of is the Imp fleet was outnumbered and would require Thrawn's tactical insight to put the right ships in the right place. When he died, it was clear that the Imps were outclassed. If they weren't, Pellaeon would have pushed on.
Stofsk wrote:Han outmaneuvered him at Sluis Van.
Actuallly, Thrawn did well there. And Han only won his partial victory through pure luck.
In other words, Han outmaneuvered him at Sluis Van. And Thrawn didn't do well there, he failed his primary objective - to capture ships.
While I'm not disagreeing you (Thrawn was bested occasionally, by Karrde for example), you chose a bad example. At the Katana fleet, Bel Iblis managed to destroy one Star Destroyer in a ramming attack after disabling it with 6 dreadnaughts and a cruiser, but the Empire STILL made off with 185 Dreadnaughts. I think Thrawn won that round.
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Post by Praxis »

Actually, Stofsk, I have to disagree with your definition of "genius".

To quote dictionary.com here http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=genius :
1.
1. Extraordinary intellectual and creative power.
2. A person of extraordinary intellect and talent: “One is not born a genius, one becomes a genius” (Simone de Beauvoir).
3. A person who has an exceptionally high intelligence quotient, typically above 140.
2.
1. A strong natural talent, aptitude, or inclination: has a genius for choosing the right words.
2. One who has such a talent or inclination: a genius at diplomacy.
3. The prevailing spirit or distinctive character, as of a place, a person, or an era: the genius of Elizabethan England.
4. pl. ge·ni·i (jn-) Roman Mythology. A tutelary deity or guardian spirit of a person or place.
5. A person who has great influence over another.
6. A jinni in Muslim mythology.
Thrawn fits definition #1, #2, and possibly even #3 (since he was regarded so highly). He also fits with the second listing:
Main Entry: ge·nius
Pronunciation: 'jE-ny&s, -nE-&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural ge·nius·es or ge·nii /-nE-"I/
1 : extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity
2 : a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; specifically : a person with a very high intelligence quotient
Here he fits with definition #1 and #2.

So Thrawn WAS a genius. Genius =/ infallable. Einstein is considered a 'genius'. He wasn't infallable. Thrawn was a military genius, in that he was better at it than most others. He wasn't infallable, he likely wasn't the best military tactition in all of history, but he was pretty dang good, and by THIS definition of genius, he is one.
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Post by Stofsk »

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:Ummm... Thrawn got away with almost the entire Katana fleet. And he wasn't there to command the battle where the SD was hit. And the Couruscant blockade was a success.
Conceded on the Katana fleet. That was a poor example. But Coruscant wasn't a successful blockade, indeed, the blockade was non-existent. It was a successful diversion, but little more than that.
StormtrooperofDeath wrote:Correct. Thrawn's ability was the only thing allowing the Imperials to pull out amazing victories.
How do you figure? The force composition couldn't have been equal, or weighted in favour of the Imperials, otherwise Pellaeon wouldn't have felt panicked enough to sound a general retreat. Logically it follows that the Rebels had more ships there, and the only chance the Imps had was Thrawn pulling a victory out of his arse. But we'd never know that he could do it, because his bodyguard took exception to him and personalised his displeasure with a blade and a restyling of his prissy white nancy-boy Admiral's outfit. 8)

Seriously, reread Bilbringi. Thrawn acts like it's in the bag, and Pellaeon was saying nothing more than sycophantic observations. From the perspective of a veteran Rebel:
TLC, chapter 28, pp.448-449 wrote:("What now?")
"I don't know." he (Wedge) admitted, taking a quick look at the battle raging around them. So far, Admiral Ackbar was still holding his Star Cruiser together in combat formation. But the way the periphery support ships were being hammered by the Imperials the whole thing could dissolve into the mass confusion of a brawl at any minute. In which event, the starfighter squadrons would be basically on their own, hitting wherever and whatever they could.

(snip) The trick would be to find something really effective to hit...

Rogue Two must have followed the same reasoning. "You know, Rogue Leader, it occurs to me that those Imperials wouldn't have so many ships available to pound us with if they had to protect their shipyard at the same time."
Now unlike Thrawn the Indomitable and Pellaeon the Asskisser, the Rebels aren't confident at all. But they're not gripped in despair either. And what seems apparent to two fighter jocks is made clear: though the Imperials have sprung a trap for them, they don't have as many ships as the Rebels do, which is why Wedge can ruminate on the tactical advantages of hitting the shipyards in spite of the ambush, which would force the Imperials to divert their attention from smashing Ackbar's fleet.
TLC, chapter 28, pp. 462 wrote:The two Rebel Assault Frigates broke to either side of the beleaguered Golan II, delivering massive broadsides as they veered off. A section of the battle station flared and went dark; and against its darkened bulk another wave of Rebel starfighters could be seen slipping past into the shipyards beyond.

And Pellaeon was no longer smiling.

"Don't panic, Captain." Thrawn said. But he, too, was starting to sound grim. "We're not defeated yet. Not by a long shot."

(snip - Thrawn receives a decrypt from Wayland, informing the good Admiral that his ace in the hole is under heavy attack by saboteurs. He then dies by Ruhk's hand as the Noghri are mentioned as complicit in the attack.)
Two Rebel Assault frigates couldn't have been stopped from blasting the Golan II. Waves of fighters could be deployed by the Rebels to divide the Imperial's attention, yet Thrawn couldn't send Interceptors after them.

Then the snip bit - even if Thrawn had pulled off a victory at Bilbringi, and Ackbar is certainly no slouch, which would make a victory hard to achieve - he would be left with a force who's ace in the hole had been neutralised by the Rebels. I guess he should have left a tighter defence on his flank, maybe that would have prevented this embarassment.
TLC, chapter 28, pp. 463 wrote:"Captain Pellaeon?" the comm officer called urgently... "The Nemesis and Stormhawk are requesting orders. What shall I tell them?"

Pellaeon looked up at the viewports. At the chaos that had erupted behind the defences of the supposedly secure shipyard; at the unexpected need to split his forces to its defence; at the Rebel fleet taking full advantage of the diversion. In the blink of an eye, the universe and suddenly turned against them.

Thrawn could still have pulled an Imperial victory out of it. But he, Pellaeon, was not Thrawn.
Pellaeon is full of shit. The battle had now descended into chaos, the Imperial shipyards were under direct attack by the Rebels (which was what the Imperial fleet is supposed to prevent), the Rebels can comfortably split their forces to fight in two different directions, while Pellaeon seems to despair at the thought, and the Rebel diversion was successful.

Pellaeon is right, he is no Thrawn. He's just a mediocre line captain and a cautious commander. He knows the Imperials are outclassed, so he orders a retreat. His assertion, that the Thrawn would have pulled a victory out of it, is baseless.
That was simply the preliminary. And not achieving your primary objective =! defeat.
Yes, it is. A victory is when you achieve your primary objectives. A defeat is when you don't. This is textbook shit.

Look, Thrawn himself conceded it was a defeat. Or a tactical setback, however you want to spin it. He didn't react like a dickhead about it, and he didn't let it get him down. He was classy. But it was still a defeat.
He AT THE VERY LEAST massivly disabled many Republic ships, a partial victory at least.
Partial victories don't win wars.
Praxis wrote:While I'm not disagreeing you (Thrawn was bested occasionally, by Karrde for example), you chose a bad example. At the Katana fleet, Bel Iblis managed to destroy one Star Destroyer in a ramming attack after disabling it with 6 dreadnaughts and a cruiser, but the Empire STILL made off with 185 Dreadnaughts. I think Thrawn won that round.
Aye, I've conceded that bit already.
Last edited by Stofsk on 2004-10-14 01:39am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stofsk
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Post by Stofsk »

Praxis wrote:So Thrawn WAS a genius. Genius =/ infallable. Einstein is considered a 'genius'. He wasn't infallable. Thrawn was a military genius, in that he was better at it than most others. He wasn't infallable, he likely wasn't the best military tactition in all of history, but he was pretty dang good, and by THIS definition of genius, he is one.
I rejected the notion that Thrawn was a genius in all things, that I take exception to: Thrawn is '10 steps ahead of Palpatine' and so on. Fan-wanking is bad enough, but when the creator does it, it's just embarassing.

By your criteria he would be a genius, but then so would Ackbar. Even Wedge would be a genius in his own way, as the above quotes would help illuminate. Obviously, being a genius isn't enough, and while the Imps had their own geniuses so too did the Rebels. The other thing I completely dislike and disregard is the average fan's thinking that Thrawn will triumph over all opposition, or he would somehow have wiped the Rebellion out if given a chance. What they don't get is he got his chance, and lost. He's called a genius by these fans, and they expect this completes their argument. They don't consider that perhaps the Rebels have their own geniuses in their employment.
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