Revisionism(?): Who's trying to Kill Palpy now?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-13 08:37pm

Y'know, in ROTJ, the scene where Palpatine is goading Luke into attacking him, and Luke finally gives in and pulls the lightsaber to his hand...?

I've always assumed that he takes a swing at Palpatine, but then Vader brings up his saber to "block" it, to protect his master, and the sabers lock (leading to the now infamous shot of locked sabers in front the cackling maniac's face).

In the original [Edit: Special Edition] shot you just see the two white blades locked, and it forms a nice white "X" shape.

But now with the revised 2004 Edition, something more interesting comes into play...

Note how the red "blade" is on "top" (facing the camera, away from the Emperor's face). Meaning that it appears that Luke is actually blocking Vader, and it is VADER, NOT LUKE, WHO IS TRYING TO KILL THE EMPEROR!

*Whoa*

Note: Both caps taken with PowerDVD 5, un-retouched from the 2004 DVD's... yes, even the "old" shot came from the DVD's, I either grabbed it from the theatrical trailers or the "Empire of Dreams" documentary, but it's definately from the 4th ("Bonus Materials") disc. I resized the shots to 50% in photoshop and saved them as Medium Quality, otherwise they are unmodified in any way.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-10-13 08:41pm

Much as it doesn't make sense, that's the visual. Vader was swinging for the emperor from that point...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-13 08:43pm

So Vader is like "sh*t son, good idea, waste the bastard!" and Luke is like "oh wait, no! he tricked me, gotta stop this thing mid swing!"

Jedi precog gone haywire!

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-10-13 08:48pm

I thought he was holding it as some sort of threat. Eg; If Luke had completed the swing, momentum would have pushed his lightsabre to the right. Easy pickings for Vader in those circumstances.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-10-13 08:56pm

There's a distinct sound effect as the blades hit (unless they've altered that too) which indicates contact.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-10-13 09:27pm

Um... If you notice that most of Luke's blade is in front of Vader's. Only that piece in the middle isn't.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-13 09:55pm

Actually- your first picture must be the SE version. I've never watched SE, or the full DVD, *but* I have the original tapes, and it looks just like the DVD picture, with half of Luke's blade on top.

I think the blades partially pass through each other...or the conflicting energy creates an illusion like that.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-10-13 10:06pm

We've seen Greedo shoots first, and now Vader is the one who wants to kill Palpatine????

Goddammed, I'm getting tired of all this "revision". Star Wars becomes more and more like DC Comics to me. Hey, maybe someday we're gonna' see Star Wars: Crisis on Infinite Galaxies, Star Wars retcons, and John Byrne version of Darth Vader.

nasor · Post by **nasor** » 2004-10-13 11:17pm

Even with that screen shot, I don’t think you can argue that Luke was blocking Vader. I agree that the red saber seeming to be on top is bizarre, but if you watch the sequence where Luke swings it seems pretty clear that he’s swinging his blade toward the Emperor, and his swing is abruptly halted. That could only happen if something blocked Luke’s blade – even if he had been swinging for the Emperor and suddenly decided (for whatever reason) to block a swing by Vader in the same direction, he couldn’t have simply halted his own forward motion like the film shows.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-10-13 11:33pm

I would guess Luke was just a touch faster than Vader on that swing, and he stopped before hitting the Emperor. Why would the Emperor laugh after almost being killed? He had only just begun to manipulate Luke, so he didn't expect to turn him into a heartless killer in a minute.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2004-10-13 11:33pm

The thing I noticed first was how much more red Palpy's eyes are, but anyway; it seems just like they goofed.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-13 11:42pm

*cough*sfxgaffe*cough*

Vader trying to kill the Emperor and Luke stopping him?

Oh Kurgan, you're so funny.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2004-10-13 11:47pm

Stofsk wrote:*cough*sfxgaffe*cough*

Vader trying to kill the Emperor and Luke stopping him? Oh Kurgan, you're so funny.

Hey, hey, hey! Remember what Vader said in the air shaft on Bespin?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-13 11:53pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:
Stofsk wrote:*cough*sfxgaffe*cough*

Vader trying to kill the Emperor and Luke stopping him? Oh Kurgan, you're so funny.
Hey, hey, hey! Remember what Vader said in the air shaft on Bespin?

Sure do. "When you're 18 you're out the door!"

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-14 12:20am

Praxis wrote:Actually- your first picture must be the SE version. I've never watched SE, or the full DVD, *but* I have the original tapes, and it looks just like the DVD picture, with half of Luke's blade on top.

I think the blades partially pass through each other...or the conflicting energy creates an illusion like that.

Can you post a screencap? You might have something there, but it's hard to believe we've been staring at that weird thing all these years...

Here's a screencap of one of the trailers from the bonus disc (tv trailer I think):

(PS: the shot is NOT cropped, that's how it originally appears onscreen, only resized with aspect ratio intact like the others)

It's hard to make out, but in this shot it looks like Vader is blocking Luke's blade.

I could watch them all again to be sure where I got them. I remember just snapping caps as I watched the bonus materials.

Anyway, so you're saying that the sabers are actually "interlocking"? Sort of like that scene in Spaceballs?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-14 12:25am

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:We've seen Greedo shoots first, and now Vader is the one who wants to kill Palpatine????

Goddammed, I'm getting tired of all this "revision". Star Wars becomes more and more like DC Comics to me. Hey, maybe someday we're gonna' see Star Wars: Crisis on Infinite Galaxies, Star Wars retcons, and John Byrne version of Darth Vader.

Again, this is not a revision, it's restoring it to how it was in the ORIGINAL tapes.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-14 12:27am

Would be nice if we could see a screencap...not saying you're bsing, just would be nice to see for ourselves.

So the little "thin red part" in the center is still there in your version (at the junction of the lock)?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-14 12:27am

Kurgan wrote:
Praxis wrote:Actually- your first picture must be the SE version. I've never watched SE, or the full DVD, *but* I have the original tapes, and it looks just like the DVD picture, with half of Luke's blade on top.

I think the blades partially pass through each other...or the conflicting energy creates an illusion like that.
Can you post a screencap? You might have something there, but it's hard to believe we've been staring at that weird thing all these years...

Sorry, I can't. I don't have anything to connect my VCR to my PC. But I am almost certain- I re-watched that scene in ROTJ a few times recently, and definitely could see part of Vader's blade in front of Luke's.

This is the original, not the SE, though. If someone would buy me a TV card for my PC...

What, can't blame me for trying

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-14 12:33am

Praxis wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Praxis wrote:Actually- your first picture must be the SE version. I've never watched SE, or the full DVD, *but* I have the original tapes, and it looks just like the DVD picture, with half of Luke's blade on top.

I think the blades partially pass through each other...or the conflicting energy creates an illusion like that.
Can you post a screencap? You might have something there, but it's hard to believe we've been staring at that weird thing all these years...
Sorry, I can't. I don't have anything to connect my VCR to my PC. But I am almost certain- I re-watched that scene in ROTJ a few times recently, and definitely could see part of Vader's blade in front of Luke's.

This is the original, not the SE, though. If someone would buy me a TV card for my PC... What, can't blame me for trying

*ponders buying you a tv card or getting a vhs copy of ROTJ original just to see*

The TV trailer for me seems to say that the scene was "right" before, notice the "red edge" of Vader's saber is completely behind Luke's green edged blade in the "Tv" shot. If it was this way in the actual movie that means either the trailer was made first and then "corrected" for the movie itself or vice versa, either way it would be quite odd. I mean sure we get saber anomalies in the other trailers, like Luke's blue saber in ROTJ on the skiff and shots of the actors fighting with the white rods in teaser trailers for ANH & ESB. You'd think a tv spot would be correct since those are usually shown once a movie is "out" (rather than in a theater to show an upcoming film).

The red in front seems to imply that, yes, Luke is actually blocking Vader. So either it's an SFX gaffe that was fixed and now is back again, conceivable, or its something new. Or else Richard Marquand or Lucas is screwing with our minds.... argh!

Armored Goldbar · Post by **Armored Goldbar** » 2004-10-14 03:53am

Kurgan wrote:So Vader is like "sh*t son, good idea, waste the bastard!"

ROFLMAO!!

I've never laughed harder while reading these forums...That's just funny.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-10-14 04:06am

Sounds good but we need to be sure that is not a SFX error and was intentional.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2004-10-14 05:08am

well, we all know that Vader planned to kill the Emperor all the time... it would be logical to kill him now, but the movie shows perfectly that vader blocks luke's strike. You must watch the sequence, the picture alone is irritating, thats true.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-10-14 07:02am

*sigh*

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2004-10-14 12:27pm

I think it's always been like that. I haven't watched the SE that much, but I definately remember Vader's blade looking like it's closer to the camera than Luke's from the original RotJ (it wasn't that pinkish there, though). It could be because Vader's sabre shines through Luke's or perhaps Luke changed his mind and aimed for Vader instead.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-14 02:40pm

Sam Davatchi (webmaster of one of the DVD comparison sites) suggests that the problem is due to the low contrast in that scene.

So I tried adjusting the curves in photoshop to see if I could duplicate the effect and here's what it looked like to me:

(68% input, 38% input)

So maybe you're right, maybe it was this way "all along" (simply brightened in the SE) but now the scene is darkened so the illusion of the clashed sabers is defeated, replaced with the "imbeded look" that appears as if Vader's is in front. The same thing apparently applies to Vader's "pink saber" and Luke's lime green saber core. I didn't believe it at first, but there it is!

So I guess Luke has been blocking Vader all along... hmmf.

Maybe this is what they were shooting for...? (edited)

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Revisionism(?): Who's trying to Kill Palpy now?

Revisionism(?): Who's trying to Kill Palpy now?

And now to version 3...

Re: And now to version 3...

post count as of this moment, 1666 <---- eeeekk!

bewildering why they changed it, but...