StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:Ummm... Thrawn got away with almost the entire Katana fleet. And he wasn't there to command the battle where the SD was hit. And the Couruscant blockade was a success.
Conceded on the Katana fleet. That was a poor example. But Coruscant wasn't a successful blockade, indeed, the blockade was non-existent. It was a successful diversion, but little more than that.
StormtrooperofDeath wrote:Correct. Thrawn's ability was the only thing allowing the Imperials to pull out amazing victories.
How do you figure? The force composition couldn't have been equal, or weighted in favour of the Imperials, otherwise Pellaeon wouldn't have felt panicked enough to sound a general retreat. Logically it follows that the Rebels had more ships there, and the only chance the Imps had was Thrawn pulling a victory out of his arse. But we'd never know that he could do it, because his bodyguard took exception to him and personalised his displeasure with a blade and a restyling of his prissy white nancy-boy Admiral's outfit.
Seriously, reread Bilbringi. Thrawn acts like it's in the bag, and Pellaeon was saying nothing more than sycophantic observations. From the perspective of a veteran Rebel:
TLC, chapter 28, pp.448-449 wrote:("What now?")
"I don't know." he (Wedge) admitted, taking a quick look at the battle raging around them. So far, Admiral Ackbar was still holding his Star Cruiser together in combat formation. But the way the periphery support ships were being hammered by the Imperials the whole thing could dissolve into the mass confusion of a brawl at any minute. In which event, the starfighter squadrons would be basically on their own, hitting wherever and whatever they could.
(snip) The trick would be to find something really effective to hit...
Rogue Two must have followed the same reasoning. "You know, Rogue Leader, it occurs to me that those Imperials wouldn't have so many ships available to pound us with if they had to protect their shipyard at the same time."
Now unlike Thrawn the Indomitable and Pellaeon the Asskisser, the Rebels aren't confident at all. But they're not gripped in despair either. And what seems apparent to two fighter jocks is made clear: though the Imperials have sprung a trap for them, they don't have as many ships as the Rebels do, which is why Wedge can ruminate on the tactical advantages of hitting the shipyards in spite of the ambush, which would force the Imperials to divert their attention from smashing Ackbar's fleet.
TLC, chapter 28, pp. 462 wrote:The two Rebel Assault Frigates broke to either side of the beleaguered Golan II, delivering massive broadsides as they veered off. A section of the battle station flared and went dark; and against its darkened bulk another wave of Rebel starfighters could be seen slipping past into the shipyards beyond.
And Pellaeon was no longer smiling.
"Don't panic, Captain." Thrawn said. But he, too, was starting to sound grim. "We're not defeated yet. Not by a long shot."
(snip - Thrawn receives a decrypt from Wayland, informing the good Admiral that his ace in the hole is under heavy attack by saboteurs. He then dies by Ruhk's hand as the Noghri are mentioned as complicit in the attack.)
Two Rebel Assault frigates couldn't have been stopped from blasting the Golan II. Waves of fighters could be deployed by the Rebels to divide the Imperial's attention, yet Thrawn couldn't send Interceptors after them.
Then the snip bit - even if Thrawn had pulled off a victory at Bilbringi, and Ackbar is certainly no slouch, which would make a victory hard to achieve - he would be left with a force who's ace in the hole had been neutralised by the Rebels. I guess he should have left a tighter defence on his flank, maybe that would have prevented this embarassment.
TLC, chapter 28, pp. 463 wrote:"Captain Pellaeon?" the comm officer called urgently... "The Nemesis and Stormhawk are requesting orders. What shall I tell them?"
Pellaeon looked up at the viewports. At the chaos that had erupted behind the defences of the supposedly secure shipyard; at the unexpected need to split his forces to its defence; at the Rebel fleet taking full advantage of the diversion. In the blink of an eye, the universe and suddenly turned against them.
Thrawn could still have pulled an Imperial victory out of it. But he, Pellaeon, was not Thrawn.
Pellaeon is full of shit. The battle had now descended into chaos, the Imperial shipyards were under direct attack by the Rebels (which was what the Imperial fleet is supposed to prevent), the Rebels can comfortably split their forces to fight in two different directions, while Pellaeon seems to despair at the thought, and the Rebel diversion was successful.
Pellaeon is right, he is no Thrawn. He's just a mediocre line captain and a cautious commander. He knows the Imperials are outclassed, so he orders a retreat. His assertion, that the Thrawn would have pulled a victory out of it, is baseless.
That was simply the preliminary. And not achieving your primary objective =! defeat.
Yes, it is. A victory is when you achieve your primary objectives. A defeat is when you don't. This is textbook shit.
Look, Thrawn himself conceded it was a defeat. Or a tactical setback, however you want to spin it. He didn't react like a dickhead about it, and he didn't let it get him down. He was classy. But it was still a defeat.
He AT THE VERY LEAST massivly disabled many Republic ships, a partial victory at least.
Partial victories don't win wars.
Praxis wrote:While I'm not disagreeing you (Thrawn was bested occasionally, by Karrde for example), you chose a bad example. At the Katana fleet, Bel Iblis managed to destroy one Star Destroyer in a ramming attack after disabling it with 6 dreadnaughts and a cruiser, but the Empire STILL made off with 185 Dreadnaughts. I think Thrawn won that round.
Aye, I've conceded that bit already.
