Official Presidential Debate Commentary Thread III

[Alyrium Denryle]

As opposed to Dave and Britany who claim victory for Bush?

But you see, they are republicans. I have the benifit of beng an "I hate both of them" libertarian and can therefore be objective.

Yes, but who do you support more than the other?

Neither, which is why I am voting for neither. I hate both more or less equally.

[Talon Karrde]

But you see, they are republicans. I have the benifit of beng an "I hate both of them" libertarian and can therefore be objective.

Yes, but who do you support more than the other?

Neither, which is why I am voting for neither. I hate both more or less equally.

Ah, ok.

[Patrick Degan]

How is this a good rebuttal? What if there was 8,000 coming in before?

How does you simply pulling a number out of your ass refute the point?

Holy shit, did you actually miss my point? The comment in question is that Kerry said the borders are weaker today than they were before Bush's tenure, at which point Bush said this is an absurd claim, and then Kerry replies that 4,000 come across the border each day, as if to prove that there are more coming across now than before. My point is that it is possible that there were more coming across before than now. Thus, saying that 4,000 are coming across the border each day is not an effective rebuttal unless he can lay proof that less were coming across before Bush's tenure.

Bush offered zero proof to back his claim beyond the assertion that the borders are secure. And given an average 1.5 million illegals crossing the Mexican border every year since 2000, simple math validates Kerry's off-the-cuff figure.

Link

Mexico's new President Vicente Fox has vowed to fight for the rights of 1.5 million Mexicans who are arrested every year trying to cross the 2,100-mile U.S. border and to push for a gradual opening of the frontier.

For the first time in Mexican history he has appointed a border czar, Ernesto Ruffo, to focus on migrant issues. Fox has also pledged to increase economic growth at home to create more jobs so fewer people feel forced to emigrate.

Between Oct. 1, 1999, and Sept. 30, 2000, 369 migrants died in the crossing, up sharply from 231 the previous year, according to U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service data.

Migration is one of the big stumbling blocks in U.S.-Mexican relations that Fox will have to face during his six-year term. Washington feels Mexico should do more to control the migrant flow; Mexico argues there is strong enough demand in the U.S. labor market for Mexican workers and it resents what it calls a patronizing attitude from its northern neighbor.

[Talon Karrde]

How does you simply pulling a number out of your ass refute the point?

Holy shit, did you actually miss my point? The comment in question is that Kerry said the borders are weaker today than they were before Bush's tenure, at which point Bush said this is an absurd claim, and then Kerry replies that 4,000 come across the border each day, as if to prove that there are more coming across now than before. My point is that it is possible that there were more coming across before than now. Thus, saying that 4,000 are coming across the border each day is not an effective rebuttal unless he can lay proof that less were coming across before Bush's tenure.

Bush offered zero proof to back his claim beyond the assertion that the borders are secure. And given an average 1.5 million illegals crossing the Mexican border every year since 2000, simple math validates Kerry's off-the-cuff figure.

Link

Mexico's new President Vicente Fox has vowed to fight for the rights of 1.5 million Mexicans who are arrested every year trying to cross the 2,100-mile U.S. border and to push for a gradual opening of the frontier.

For the first time in Mexican history he has appointed a border czar, Ernesto Ruffo, to focus on migrant issues. Fox has also pledged to increase economic growth at home to create more jobs so fewer people feel forced to emigrate.

Between Oct. 1, 1999, and Sept. 30, 2000, 369 migrants died in the crossing, up sharply from 231 the previous year, according to U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service data.

Migration is one of the big stumbling blocks in U.S.-Mexican relations that Fox will have to face during his six-year term. Washington feels Mexico should do more to control the migrant flow; Mexico argues there is strong enough demand in the U.S. labor market for Mexican workers and it resents what it calls a patronizing attitude from its northern neighbor.

And again you ignore the original point. Kerry had last word and he threw out the number 4,000, as if that proved that there were now more illegals coming across the border. My point stands, this number means nothing as it was put up against no other number.

[Gil Hamilton]

Something that amazes me. I've been hearing alot of people say that because they were expecting Bush to be completely inarticulate, but he turned out better than his usual standard, that it was somehow a point for Bush.

How exactly is that a positive point for Bush? It's still doesn't mean that he was a good speaker, just that he managed to not meet peoples expectations of how poorly he often does speak. It's like saying "Hurray! He didn't sound like a complete retard, just a little retarded!"

[Hamel]

Something that amazes me. I've been hearing alot of people say that because they were expecting Bush to be completely inarticulate, but he turned out better than his usual standard, that it was somehow a point for Bush.

How exactly is that a positive point for Bush? It's still doesn't mean that he was a good speaker, just that he managed to not meet peoples expectations of how poorly he often does speak. It's like saying "Hurray! He didn't sound like a complete retard, just a little retarded!"

Bush voters set the bar extra lower for him in debates so their main man could save a little face.

[The Silence and I]

Well, we kind of have to

[Gil Hamilton]

Well, we kind of have to

Double standards are fun, aren't they?

[The Silence and I]

Hey, I just dislike Kerry more; it's not like I'm rooting for the great job Bush has done.
And yes, they are.

[Gil Hamilton]

Hey, I just dislike Kerry more; it's not like I'm rooting for the great job Bush has done.
And yes, they are.

You could always vote for neither.

[Patrick Degan]

First, it was Bob Schieffer who tossed out the figure of 8000 illegals-per-day; I missed that while trying to put down my 11-month old for the night.

Bush offered zero proof to back his claim beyond the assertion that the borders are secure. And given an average 1.5 million illegals crossing the Mexican border every year since 2000, simple math validates Kerry's off-the-cuff figure.

And again you ignore the original point. Kerry had last word and he threw out the number 4,000, as if that proved that there were now more illegals coming across the border. My point stands, this number means nothing as it was put up against no other number.

And Bush simply said that the borders were "more protected" as if that demonstrated anything, but provided no actual figures to show if illegal immigration has actually decreased since 9-11.

This panel-discussion involving INS professionals does not support Bush's contention that "the borders are more secure":

excerpt:

T.J. BONNER: Thanks, Steve. Thanks for the opportunity to talk a little bit about a topic that’s near and dear to my heart. You were kind when you said I have slightly more than 20 years. I have 26 years serving in San Diego, California ,with the Border Patrol. And it’s been a wild ride. When I first came in there were fewer than 2,000 agents patrolling the entirety of our southwest and northern borders. That’s about 6,000 total miles of land border.

Currently there are over 10,000 border patrol agents. Unfortunately, employing the current strategy of trying to overwhelm the problem with numbers, it would take many, many times more than that to control the problem. And you have to recognize that this is not particularly a law enforcement problem. This is a social problem of people coming across the border primarily seeking employment. Now, intermingled within those millions of people – and, yes, millions of people who cross our border every year – the Border Patrol catches over a million people a year. You break that down: every day that means the United States Border Patrol will catch over 3,000 people. The alarming statistic is many more than that get by us. By our best estimate, at least twice that many get by us.

Now, if you stop and do the math you might think, well, wait a second; if that’s really true that would mean that over 2 million people come into the country, slip by the Border Patrol every year, which would mean that in the 18 years since the 1986 amnesty we would end up with 36 million people in this country – 36 million illegal aliens. Well, the reason that that’s not true is because of the pattern of illegal immigration. Many of the people that we encounter we either catch multiple times or the ones who slip by us will work for a few months in the United States and then go back to their country of origin and just repeat that cycle. It’s a revolving door, which explains why there are only 8-16 million illegal immigrants in the country, which is still quite an alarming figure.

And to say that all of these people are contributing in a beneficial way is simply naïve. There are a number of these people who are indeed criminals and some of the people who are terrorists. Bear in mind that the 19 people who attacked our country on September the 11th, 2001, were all foreign nationals, many of them in this country illegally. So we have a serious problem on our hands.

Going by the figure given by Mr. Bonnor (President, National Border Patrol Council), that would work out to about 5500 people slipping past the Border Patrol daily, which would make Kerry's number an under-estimate.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Hey, I just dislike Kerry more; it's not like I'm rooting for the great job Bush has done.
And yes, they are.

You could always vote for neither.

That is what I was telling EVERYONE all day yesterday.

[Spyder]

How is this a good rebuttal? What if there was 8,000 coming in before?

There clearly wasn't.

And you know this how?

Because if there was either Kerry would have stayed away from the subject or Bush would have nailed him on it.

[Talon Karrde]

There clearly wasn't.

And you know this how?

Because if there was either Kerry would have stayed away from the subject or Bush would have nailed him on it.

Wrong. Kerry had the final statement on that topic. You don't have to tell the whole truth when it can't be challenged by a rebuttal.

[Howedar]

I have two friends who are voting Kerry instead of Bush after this debate.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I have two friends who are voting Kerry instead of Bush after this debate.

I will admit, he was very persuasive, or at least seemed more competant than our houseplant president.

[Spyder]

And you know this how?

Because if there was either Kerry would have stayed away from the subject or Bush would have nailed him on it.

Wrong. Kerry had the final statement on that topic. You don't have to tell the whole truth when it can't be challenged by a rebuttal.

If there really was a decrease, and if it was significant Bush could have easilly used it as a point in his previous statement.

Now let me ask you, what evidence do you have to show that the number was higher?