Rape of Nanking manga causes uproar in Japan

[Rogue 9]

Do bear in mind that Miyazaki the co-head of (and dominant partner within) Ghibli is a card carry Marxist, his films are consistently anti-nationalist and anti-militarist he simply wouldn?t allow an nationalist apologetic to be produced by his studio.

It's odd then how the film made no mention of the Japanese militarism and aggression that started the whole fucking war.

Just wondering Joe after all your second hand criticisms of Bowling for Columbine, have you actually seen the film you’re now critiquing?

Not that Bowling for Columbine didn't deserve said criticisms. And yes, I have seen it, thanks.

[Sharp-kun]

Fifteen statements in over half century doesn't amount to much.

Compared to how many times countries like the UK have apologised for our wars and things that happened during them? How many times has the US apologised for Vietnam?

How many times do you think they should apologise? Will 30 be enough? 40?

Come on people, there is a limit. I for one am getting sick of people constantly demanding apologoes from the current Japanese government for acts in WWII. When does it end? I don't support Japan's actions, or the attitude some may have, but I do find it unreasonable that some people still demand apologies, even after many have been given.

Japanese schools are no doubt as varied as any nation's, however the fact is that a lot of them don't teach or teach a distorted veiw of WW2. One only has to look at this crap to realize that they've got a serious problem with a good number of people just not believing history. And this is not an isolated incident in the least, there have been university proffessors, politicians, and all matter of people that have said the same.

Yes, there is a problem, but I'm inclined to suspect its not quite as bad as some in the west portray it, simply from discussion with various Japanese friends.

I find it appalling that the Japanese right wing can utterly deny what they did and attempt to supress anyone that says different.

Every country has its right wing arseholes (remember what some said about Iraq's scandals?), Japan is no different.

[Plekhanov]

I've seen the movie; and you're right about the suffering coming from other Japanese. It's definitely not an apologist movie; at times a bit excusive of the role the japanese people played but not apologist persay.

However I find it terribly hypocritical that Japan can make monuments, museums, and yes films about it's national tragedies but starts this crap any time anyone brings up the utterly pointless barbarism it inflicted on others. They seem to feel that it's entirely appropriate to lament their tragedies but they seek to deny their complicity in their atrocities. I find it appalling that the Japanese right wing can utterly deny what they did and attempt to supress anyone that says different.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about Japanese hypocrisy on WWII and their abject failure to recognise or atone for their many appalling crimes during the period of imperial expansion, not only against western POWs and civilians (which are of course well documented in the west) but also against the indigenous people the Japanese still claim to have “liberated” from colonial rule.

It’s just that as an abject Ghibli fan boy I couldn’t stand to see Grave of the Fire Flies lumped in with the rest of the apologist propaganda. I can see that it’s a film that it would be relatively easy to misuse as a piece of “look how we suffered” type propaganda it’s just that I don’t think that was the intention of the producers who it seems to me at least are firmly in the anti-war and anti-imperialist camp, maybe they were naive as to how their work might be misused but I’m not sure how much we can blame them for that.

[Joe]

Just wondering Joe after all your second hand criticisms of Bowling for Columbine, have you actually seen the film you?re now critiquing?

Yes I have. I own the DVD.

[Plekhanov]

It's odd then how the film made no mention of the Japanese militarism and aggression that started the whole fucking war.

Just wondering Joe after all your second hand criticisms of Bowling for Columbine, have you actually seen the film you’re now critiquing?

Not that Bowling for Columbine didn't deserve said criticisms. And yes, I have seen it, thanks.

Erm I'm a little confused Rogue why are you replying to a question I posed to Joe? Are both you guys just avatars for the same poster or something or did you just get carried away?

[Rogue 9]

No, I am not Joe. And yeah, I tend to get carried away about Moore. Sorry.

[Stormbringer]

Compared to how many times countries like the UK have apologised for our wars and things that happened during them? How many times has the US apologised for Vietnam?

How many times has the US attempted to deny Vietnam? How many times have we tried to claim that no US soldier ever acted improperly? And how many times have anti-war flicks been supressed?

How many times do you think they should apologise? Will 30 be enough? 40?

Come on people, there is a limit. I for one am getting sick of people constantly demanding apologoes from the current Japanese government for acts in WWII. When does it end? I don't support Japan's actions, or the attitude some may have, but I do find it unreasonable that some people still demand apologies, even after many have been given.

It's not about the number of apologies, especially largely meaningless ones made out of town as it were.

What people want is for them to take responsibility, face up to what they did, and stop pretending otherwise. When there's a large contingent of important and theoretically well educated people that flat out attempt to deny or dimish the sheer weight of barbarism

Yes, there is a problem, but I'm inclined to suspect its not quite as bad as some in the west portray it, simply from discussion with various Japanese friends.

Maybe, maybe not. But how many people would be alarmed if credible German politicians denied the Holocaust? How many would be alarmed if Germany infered, if not outright taught, that World War Two was the result of the Allies interfering in Germany's natural expansion?

Like the US and creationism there are no doubt parts of Japan that are better than others. But the fact that there are those problems, and they're more widespread than you concede, is cause for concern. And I don't blame their neighbors for being downright offended and alarmed.

Every country has its right wing arseholes (remember what some said about Iraq's scandals?), Japan is no different.

Sure it does. But other nations have every right to be concerned about what those right wing arseholes are doing.

[Plekhanov]

Fifteen statements in over half century doesn't amount to much.

Compared to how many times countries like the UK have apologised for our wars and things that happened during them? How many times has the US apologised for Vietnam?

How many times do you think they should apologise? Will 30 be enough? 40?

Come on people, there is a limit. I for one am getting sick of people constantly demanding apologoes from the current Japanese government for acts in WWII. When does it end? I don't support Japan's actions, or the attitude some may have, but I do find it unreasonable that some people still demand apologies, even after many have been given.

Maybe it will be enough when he Japanese government fully acknowledges the crimes of the Japanese state during the period in question and apologises and compensates the few victims still alive after half a century of Japanese foot dragging for the appalling suffering inflicted upon them in the way that the German government has done for it’s crimes during WWII.

Maybe it will be enough when the Japanese government stops issuing bullshit apologists history texts books to its schools and actually acknowledges the fact that it was an imperialist aggressor.

Maybe it will be enough when Japan actually recognises the crimes committed against Korean (and also those of other nationalities) “comfort women” who were forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese state during the period in question, it would also help if the women in question were actually compensated for what the Japanese state put them through.

Basically maybe it will be enough when instead of having a few quotable apologies wrung out of it under sustained pressure the Japanese state fully and freely acknowledges it’s crimes during it’s Imperial phase and compensates the few surviving victims of it’s many and grievous crimes.

[Stormbringer]

It’s just that as an abject Ghibli fan boy I couldn’t stand to see Grave of the Fire Flies lumped in with the rest of the apologist propaganda. I can see that it’s a film that it would be relatively easy to misuse as a piece of “look how we suffered” type propaganda it’s just that I don’t think that was the intention of the producers who it seems to me at least are firmly in the anti-war and anti-imperialist camp, maybe they were naive as to how their work might be misused but I’m not sure how much we can blame them for that.

I can understand that and I realize that the film is meant to be anti-war. I simply find it sad that it takes the easy route and avoids looking, even superficially, at the larger picture. It's that narrow focus that I find somewhat bothersome, the tragedy of imperialism and war was largely inflicted on other by the Japanese, not the other way around.

[Plekhanov]

It's odd then how the film made no mention of the Japanese militarism and aggression that started the whole fucking war.

Just wondering Joe after all your second hand criticisms of Bowling for Columbine, have you actually seen the film you’re now critiquing?

Yes I have. I own the DVD.

Well ok then in that case I assume you’ve seen the film a few times, so you’ll no doubt have noticed that it’s a beautifully and seamlessly related story told from the perspective of a small boy thoroughly indoctrinated with imperial propaganda (remember his faith in the combined fleet?).

Maybe it would have been more politically responsible to include a short documentary making it clear how the allies were acting in response to Japanese aggression but not only would that have broken up the structure of the film but it would be placing a responsibility upon Takahata that simply isn’t his, apart from the bit about the older brother dying he told a true story about the experiences of one family in the war, a story which I’ve pointed out is far from complementary about ordinary Japanese civilians.

It simply isn’t Takahata’s job to make up for the collective Japanese failure to acknowledge the reality of WWII. There was no documentary at the start of Das Boot going on about the whole invasion of Poland thing, it simply wasn’t necessary because all Germans know about that anyway. The only reason you notice the similar absence from GotFF is because of the Japanese states failure to atone for it’s sins in the way Germany has, it’s unfair to blame studio Ghibli which I’d argue is in this case on the side of the angels responsible for this.

[Symmetry]

How do they get away with it when the Germans had their faces smeared into the Holocaust from day 1 of the peace?

1) The Japanese surrendered

2) Many in the occupation thought that the Japanese were robots who mindlessly followed orders, sometimes due to western propaganda and sometimes through dealing with Japanese dignitaries who used this idea to justify their system of government.

[Plekhanov]

Erm I'm a little confused Rogue why are you replying to a question I posed to Joe? Are both you guys just avatars for the same poster or something or did you just get carried away?

No, I am not Joe. And yeah, I tend to get carried away about Moore. Sorry.

Glad you cleared that up I was a bit puzzled there for a while.

I can understand that and I realize that the film is meant to be anti-war. I simply find it sad that it takes the easy route and avoids looking, even superficially, at the larger picture. It's that narrow focus that I find somewhat bothersome, the tragedy of imperialism and war was largely inflicted on other by the Japanese, not the other way around.

I understand where you’re coming from and I entirely agree that to use your wording “the tragedy of imperialism and war was largely inflicted on other by the Japanese” that’s a plain historical fact about which there can simply be no argument, it’s just that I think that you’re blaming GotFF unfairly for a more collective failure to which the people behind the film are arguably not part of.

I don’t think that GotFF’s narrow focus is there as an easy political way out, it is after all based upon the older brother's autobiography (apart from the bit about him dieing of course), the narrow focus is quite deliberate and I would say entirely justified artistically. It is only a problem because of the collective failure of Japan to acknowledge the true history of Imperial Japan, maybe in this context GotFF failed in it’s arguable duty to adequately fill in the background history. I don’t think that GotFF failed in it’s duty to the truth though I think it triumphantly succeeded in depicting the home front of a total war to people in a way that I’ve never seen equalled, the failure you are concerned with isn’t so much the film’s as Japan’s.

[Z-Ha-Dum]

Come on people, there is a limit. I for one am getting sick of people constantly demanding apologoes from the current Japanese government for acts in WWII.

As long as the Japanese deny the existence of their crimes. No. There is still many of us Asians who demand more than just an apology. I can never forgive the Japanese for the humiliations they inflicted on my grandfather. Even financial compensation is not enough to atone for their crimes.

[Xisiqomelir]

How do they get away with it when the Germans had their faces smeared into the Holocaust from day 1 of the peace?

1) The Japanese surrendered

2) Many in the occupation thought that the Japanese were robots who mindlessly followed orders, sometimes due to western propaganda and sometimes through dealing with Japanese dignitaries who used this idea to justify their system of government.

Also, Nanking was over by March 1938.

[Kamakazie Sith]

How do they get away with it when the Germans had their faces smeared into the Holocaust from day 1 of the peace?

1) The Japanese surrendered

2) Many in the occupation thought that the Japanese were robots who mindlessly followed orders, sometimes due to western propaganda and sometimes through dealing with Japanese dignitaries who used this idea to justify their system of government.

And 3 how viciously Japanese soldiers fought during the campaigns on the islands, even though some were starving, so that thinking isn't without objective evidence.

[Sharp-kun]

As long as the Japanese deny the existence of their crimes.

It is not all Japanese that do so though. The government has apologised, and many Japanese I know feel sorry for what happened.

I know at least one person who denies that Mai Lai ever happened, I have no doubt there are others. Should America continue to apologise to Vietnam?

I can never forgive the Japanese for the humiliations they inflicted on my grandfather.

Why? I have at least 5 relatives on the War Memorial in the local precinct. I have no problems forgiving Germans.

Hating for actions that happened 50 years ago is pointless.

Even financial compensation is not enough to atone for their crimes.

What should the current generation of Japanese do then? You say money is not enough, so what then? Should all descendants of the serious war criminals be executed?

Do you support some form of "justice" where the descendants of those who committted atrocities are expected to atone for them? Every country should be apologising to another in that case.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Hating for actions that happened 50 years ago is pointless.

Can you forgive a rapist who raped you 50 years ago? Sure, it might be pointless to not forgive him, but could you really? If you are a male, try and think of something equally humiliating.

Personally, I had no relatives who suffered (well, at least not more than the normal member of the Japanese occupation anyway) under the Japanese.

But I know humiliations can go far, and I sympathized with them ... right up until the day when I hear some of them were taking a soccer match as a venting tool for their protests. What does something 50 years ago, or the Diaoyutai Islands, have to do with a soccer match? My Chinese half literally blushed at hearing that. It might be common - people with political agendas using a sports event to make protests what they don't like about the guest country. But personally, I think such behavior is immature and disgraces your nation by making its people look narrow-minded. It certainly did much to reduce my sympathy for those victims.

[Sharp-kun]

Can you forgive a rapist who raped you 50 years ago? Sure, it might be pointless to not forgive him, but could you really? If you are a male, try and think of something equally humiliating.

Poor analogy, as the Japanese have done nothing to any poster here.

Everyone will have relatives that will have suffered at the hands of someone from another country at some point. The ones who committed the acts are dead or dieing, yet people continue to hate the current generation, and demand apologies from them (despite them being given).

But I know humiliations can go far, and I sympathized with them ...

I do sympathise with them, but I also think there is a limit. Japan has apologised, despite some peoples refusual to accept it.

[HemlockGrey]

Can you forgive a rapist who raped you 50 years ago? Sure, it might be pointless to not forgive him, but could you really? If you are a male, try and think of something equally humiliating.

What if the rapist died? Could you forgive his grandson?[/quote]

[salm]

As long as the Japanese deny the existence of their crimes. No. There is still many of us Asians who demand more than just an apology. I can never forgive the Japanese for the humiliations they inflicted on my grandfather. Even financial compensation is not enough to atone for their crimes.

personally i´d suggest to hate the individuals who commited these crimes and the one´s who deny they ever happened. people who don´t have anything to do with it don´t deserve your hatered even though they might be japanese.
condemning an entire people based on their granddads actions is methinks a bad thing.
what should be done, imo, is that people from outside coutries request the decendants of of the war criminals to take responsibility and demand them to watch that their grandparents acts are not repeated ever again.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Poor analogy, as the Japanese have done nothing to any poster here.

OK, could you forgive the rapist who raped your mom, if it happened 50 years ago?

Everyone will have relatives that will have suffered at the hands of someone from another country at some point. The ones who committed the acts are dead or dieing, yet people continue to hate the current generation, and demand apologies from them (despite them being given).

Yeah, they could have suffered privation under occupation, be forced to work ... etc. But that's a whole different thing from being buried and other genuine atrocities.

It can be also argued that words are cheap, compensations actually at least pinch a little. Besides, one can argue that apologies are not really apologies until it is in a form acceptable to the wronged party.

[HemlockGrey]

Alright, on the one hand, the national repression and denial of WWII atrocities is extremely disturbing. I find the German tendency to demonize patriotism a little odd; but this is far worse.

HOWEVER, the Japanese people today are not responsible for those atrocities, and the mindset which allowed those atrocities to occur does not exist today.

[Sharp-kun]

OK, could you forgive the rapist who raped your mom, if it happened 50 years ago?

I might.

As previously stated though, we are talking about the descendants of people who committed the acts.

[Stormbringer]

As long as the Japanese deny the existence of their crimes.

It is not all Japanese that do so though. The government has apologised, and many Japanese I know feel sorry for what happened.

And a good many do deny or at least excuse what they did. You don't get relatively mainstream politicians and other public figures denying that stuff with out a sizeable chunk believing in it. You don't get text books that enshrine the notion that the war was justified or that ignore the war crimes committed with out people believing.

I'm sorry, but this is not just an issue of a few lone quacks. It's a serious issue in Japanese society.

I know at least one person who denies that Mai Lai ever happened, I have no doubt there are others. Should America continue to apologise to Vietnam?

Does the majority of America deny that Mai Lai took place? There are always going to be a few quacks; the difference is the mainstream attitude.

And America could and should make a genuine effort to compensate those that were the victims of Vietnam era atrocities.

[salm]

i feel really urged to bring up the age old argument that if you blame this gnereation of japanese for WWII acts by the same logic you have to blame this generation of americans for slavery.