Rape of Nanking manga causes uproar in Japan

[Aeolus]

How do they get away with it when the Germans had their faces smeared into the Holocaust from day 1 of the peace?

Japan's surrender was handled differently than Germany's. They didn't get things like Nuremberg that forced them to face up to their crimes.

Japan won't be able to change or grow has a nation until they admit what they did.

My experience has been that most are aware of it. They may try to gloss it over, but they do know it happened. I've only encountered one person that dismissed it all as propoganda. Various Japanese PM's have issed apologies for what happened during the war.

Well Japan surrendered unconditionally but was never invaded. Germany was flat out conquered...thier is a differance

[General Zod]

How do they get away with it when the Germans had their faces smeared into the Holocaust from day 1 of the peace?

Japan's surrender was handled differently than Germany's. They didn't get things like Nuremberg that forced them to face up to their crimes.

Japan won't be able to change or grow has a nation until they admit what they did.

My experience has been that most are aware of it. They may try to gloss it over, but they do know it happened. I've only encountered one person that dismissed it all as propoganda. Various Japanese PM's have issed apologies for what happened during the war.

Well Japan surrendered unconditionally but was never invaded. Germany was flat out conquered...thier is a differance

japan only surrendered unconditionally and was never invaded because we dropped two atomic bombs on them. I doubt they would have been so willing to surrender otherwise.

[Z-Ha-Dum]

It is not all Japanese that do so though. The government has apologised, and many Japanese I know feel sorry for what happened.

I know at least one person who denies that Mai Lai ever happened, I have no doubt there are others. Should America continue to apologise to Vietnam?

It isn't as simple as that. You have to understand the Asian mindset. Saying something is FAR different from meaning it. In a diplomatic setting this is more pronounced. When a Japanese prime minister apologizes for any atrocity in World War II it is taken with a grain of salt.

Why? I have at least 5 relatives on the War Memorial in the local precinct. I have no problems forgiving Germans.

Hating for actions that happened 50 years ago is pointless.

During World War II a person can get decapitated for refusing to bow before a Japanese soldier. My grandfather had to do that several times. It is still an issue for me. I despise the fact that my grandfather became a source of amusement for passing Japanese soldiers.

What should the current generation of Japanese do then? You say money is not enough, so what then? Should all descendants of the serious war criminals be executed?

No. At the very least the WHOLE of Japanese society should acknowledge their country's history. There are still people who deny the Nanjing massacre ever took place even in the current generation. But that may be asking too much.

[salm]

No. At the very least the WHOLE of Japanese society should acknowledge their country's history. There are still people who deny the Nanjing massacre ever took place even in the current generation. But that may be asking too much.

ok, and until every japanese has acknoleged their history you´re going to blame every japanese?
come on, last time i checked peoples consisted of lots and lots of individutals. it´s not like every country merely resembles a bee hive in which everybody has the same mind set.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

It isn't as simple as that. You have to understand the Asian mindset. Saying something is FAR different from meaning it. In a diplomatic setting this is more pronounced. When a Japanese prime minister apologizes for any atrocity in World War II it is taken with a grain of salt.

But in face terms, the cost is already incurred with the speech.

During World War II a person can get decapitated for refusing to bow before a Japanese soldier. My grandfather had to do that several times. It is still an issue for me. I despise the fact that my grandfather became a source of amusement for passing Japanese soldiers.

First of all, what kind of bow are we talking about? There are lots of bows. There are the 5 degree nods, ranging all the way up to kneeling with head touched to the floor.

But honestly, even with the most severe bow, if that's really the greatest indignation he suffered, honestly, this case doesn't even register on the sympathy meter, especially when there are the comfort women, the flat out raped, the buried alive and all that on the list.

From the POV of the conqueror, refusing to even make the symbolic gesture of bowing means you refuse to submit to their authority. That's insubordination, and we can't have that in an orderly, occupied society.

As a simplified rule, how bad an arbitrary rule is is determined by:
Difficulty * Consequence of Defiance / Mitigating Factor

In this case, the Consequence of Defiance is nearly full (decapitation), but the Difficulty (at least Physical) of Bowing is low. The Mitigating Factor is that in Asian societies, bowing is recognized as an act to acknowledge that the other guy is superior on the hierarchical ladder (which an occupation force soldier would generally expect - they don't expect people to talk back as if they are equals), so it is not totally arbitrary.

So you see, perhaps something else really bad and unforgivable happened to your grand-dad, but using this example as is hardly provokes any real sympathy.

[Z-Ha-Dum]

ok, and until every japanese has acknoleged their history you´re going to blame every japanese?
come on, last time i checked peoples consisted of lots and lots of individutals. it´s not like every country merely resembles a bee hive in which everybody has the same mind set.

I was wrong in generalizing. But it still an issue in their society, to the older generation at least.

[Z-Ha-Dum]

But in face terms, the cost is already incurred with the speech.

True. But to some people face terms are not enough.

But honestly, even with the most severe bow, if that's really the greatest indignation he suffered, honestly, this case doesn't even register on the sympathy meter, especially when there are the comfort women, the flat out raped, the buried alive and all that on the list.

You are correct. In the scale of WW2 there are more than a million who suffered more than my granddad. But the indignation and harships my grandparents, my father and my aunts suffered is still an issue with me.

Ah well. I should shut up now.

[Kamakazie Sith]

i feel really urged to bring up the age old argument that if you blame this gnereation of japanese for WWII acts by the same logic you have to blame this generation of americans for slavery.

I hold no ill will towards the Japanese, or the Germans. What happened is done....

I agree we should stop asking the following generations to apologize for the acts of their ancestors.

However, this thread was started because they are trying to deny those atrocities...that is unacceptable.

[Frank Hipper]

If there was a comic about Wounded Knee, and some American politician tried to suppress it and claim it never happened, there would be a fucking uproar.
This denial is insane, there's still grave mounds in Nanking chock full of skeletons...

[Symmetry]

Poor analogy, as the Japanese have done nothing to any poster here.

OK, could you forgive the rapist who raped your mom, if it happened 50 years ago?

This is quite irrational of me, but I could probably forgive someone for that within about 20 years or so of when I first learned of the crime, provided that they had been sent to jail and had been law abiding citizens after getting out.

2) Many in the occupation thought that the Japanese were robots who mindlessly followed orders, sometimes due to western propaganda and sometimes through dealing with Japanese dignitaries who used this idea to justify their system of government.

And 3 how viciously Japanese soldiers fought during the campaigns on the islands, even though some were starving, so that thinking isn't without objective evidence.

But in thinking that the actions of those soldiers were characteristic of Japanese people in general they'd be wrong. If fact, the fanaticism show by Japanese soldiers could just as easily be explained by the soldier's belief that they'd suffer the same deprivations at the hands of our soldiers as the ones they inflicted.