Yoda vs Exar Kun

[Eleas]

I think that, if given the role Kun chose, Yoda might have been less effective. Why? Because while Kun was an ecceedingly strong Force user, it was not what made him dangerous. No, the real kickers were his ability to create chaos among the Jedi, and his Sith status. If I recall correctly, it was his acquisition of Ulic (and Aleema Keto through him) that made him a true force to be reckoned with. In fact, I get the impression that Qel-Dromas status as an apprentice nonwithstanding, his was the strategic genius that made them that much more dangerous.

As a killer of Jedi, however, a Dark Side - driven Yoda would have been damn near unstoppable. He's not just a hideously powerful force user and a fine warrior, he's also an experienced teacher. In the days before Bane's teacher, he would have been able to train or corrupt a near limitless supply of Sith.

My point is that Kun's actions were impressive because it always is easier to fill the role of a shadowy, unseen aggressor. His actions in the war were usually strategic in scale, and not dependent on his Force ability.

[The Cleric]

Give physical powers, ranges of abilites because right now, this is the ultimate example of blantant wanking.

Did you not read what I wrote? There are no examples of his direct, height of full power feats. All we know is that it took the combined power of the Republic and thousands of Jedi to force Kun to drain his slaves and retreat to the 'spiritual' plane. Where, after 4000 years (and we know from Kenobi that tiem spent away from the physcal plane weakens you), he was STILL able to fuck up Skywalker, a full Jedi master and one of the most powerful ever.

[Ghost Rider]

Give physical powers, ranges of abilites because right now, this is the ultimate example of blantant wanking.

Did you not read what I wrote? There are no examples of his direct, height of full power feats. All we know is that it took the combined power of the Republic and thousands of Jedi to force Kun to drain his slaves and retreat to the 'spiritual' plane. Where, after 4000 years (and we know from Kenobi that tiem spent away from the physcal plane weakens you), he was STILL able to fuck up Skywalker, a full Jedi master and one of the most powerful ever.

So not ONCE can you cite an example of any time Exar Kun EVER using any Force ability.

Thus so far this debate is nothing more then some kids wanking off to a ghost.

Then must be spam...guess I'll lock it unless someone shows otherwise, dumbfuck.

[The Cleric]

Give physical powers, ranges of abilites because right now, this is the ultimate example of blantant wanking.

Did you not read what I wrote? There are no examples of his direct, height of full power feats. All we know is that it took the combined power of the Republic and thousands of Jedi to force Kun to drain his slaves and retreat to the 'spiritual' plane. Where, after 4000 years (and we know from Kenobi that tiem spent away from the physcal plane weakens you), he was STILL able to fuck up Skywalker, a full Jedi master and one of the most powerful ever.

So not ONCE can you cite an example of any time Exar Kun EVER using any Force ability.

Thus so far this debate is nothing more then some kids wanking off to a ghost.

Then must be spam...guess I'll lock it unless someone shows otherwise, dumbfuck.

The force abilities he demonstrated were thrashing around a full grown man, who was a fairly profecient Jedi, AS A GHOST. He broke bones and dislocated shoulders. And he used black Force lightening to cripple Skywalker. All of this as a weakened, 4000 year old ghost. Which is a pretty strong indication of how powerful he was as a full Sith Lord.

[Ghost Rider]

Did you not read what I wrote? There are no examples of his direct, height of full power feats. All we know is that it took the combined power of the Republic and thousands of Jedi to force Kun to drain his slaves and retreat to the 'spiritual' plane. Where, after 4000 years (and we know from Kenobi that tiem spent away from the physcal plane weakens you), he was STILL able to fuck up Skywalker, a full Jedi master and one of the most powerful ever.

So not ONCE can you cite an example of any time Exar Kun EVER using any Force ability.

Thus so far this debate is nothing more then some kids wanking off to a ghost.

Then must be spam...guess I'll lock it unless someone shows otherwise, dumbfuck.

The force abilities he demonstrated were thrashing around a full grown man, who was a fairly profecient Jedi, AS A GHOST. He broke bones and dislocated shoulders. And he used black Force lightening to cripple Skywalker. All of this as a weakened, 4000 year old ghost. Which is a pretty strong indication of how powerful he was as a full Sith Lord.

Oh yes, the classic "I'll give an example which could mean anything since in reality means nothing"

Show an example of some level of measured POWER.

Yoda can move at such amount of m/s...this has been shown, done and proven. AoTC also showed Yoda moving quite a few metric tons, upwards of a couple hundred, also ESB showed a greater feat in lifting.

Can Exar Kun match that?

Yes?

No?

Math, Proof, what's that?

[The Cleric]

The math isn't my strong point, but I'll lay out how it could be done (for anyone with the access to the numbers). You have Yoda lifting X amount of weight. You find where Kenobi lifts something with the force, and calculate that as Y. You figure out how much force is needed to throw an adult, buff, human male around like a ragdoll, and call it Z. Scale Y minus a bit (for aging) down to 0 over a 5 year period (the amount of time that Ben stuck around). Reverse that and put it up against Kun over 4000 years to see what he would have been when he died.

[Eleas]

I reiterate: there is no reason to believe these abilities are below what Exar Kun could do while corporeal - his disembodied state had been fueled by the life force of thousands of beings. That's not his innate power - it is external.

[The Cleric]

I reiterate: there is no reason to believe these abilities are below what Exar Kun could do while corporeal - his disembodied state had been fueled by the life force of thousands of beings. That's not his innate power - it is external.

And as far as we know, the life force could just have been what was neccessary to pull his current abilities with him, and then allowing them to denegrate.

Pretty much, unless someting is written regarding Kun as a physical person, we're not going to be able to tell.

[Praxis]

The math isn't my strong point, but I'll lay out how it could be done (for anyone with the access to the numbers). You have Yoda lifting X amount of weight. You find where Kenobi lifts something with the force, and calculate that as Y. You figure out how much force is needed to throw an adult, buff, human male around like a ragdoll, and call it Z. Scale Y minus a bit (for aging) down to 0 over a 5 year period (the amount of time that Ben stuck around). Reverse that and put it up against Kun over 4000 years to see what he would have been when he died.

Without a body, aging won't affect him much.

[Ghost Rider]

I reiterate: there is no reason to believe these abilities are below what Exar Kun could do while corporeal - his disembodied state had been fueled by the life force of thousands of beings. That's not his innate power - it is external.

And as far as we know, the life force could just have been what was neccessary to pull his current abilities with him, and then allowing them to denegrate.

Pretty much, unless someting is written regarding Kun as a physical person, we're not going to be able to tell.

So all those Tales of the Jedi comics are invaildated?

Fucking A...this has got to be one of the most ass backwards of debates. What do you think Eleas was meaning about why it's external. It wasn't just him.

It's literally described as THOUSANDS of Beings....a bit of of an unknown addition that we have no clue of how it affected him.

So it's been a long while for me, but I don't remember Exar Kun beiung the End All, BE All Sith Lord in those comics.

It took a lot because he had an army...no different then Palpatine. His personal abilities I rated somewhere around acombo of Maul and Vader's...at best.

And this

The math isn't my strong point, but I'll lay out how it could be done (for anyone with the access to the numbers). You have Yoda lifting X amount of weight. You find where Kenobi lifts something with the force, and calculate that as Y. You figure out how much force is needed to throw an adult, buff, human male around like a ragdoll, and call it Z. Scale Y minus a bit (for aging) down to 0 over a 5 year period (the amount of time that Ben stuck around). Reverse that and put it up against Kun over 4000 years to see what he would have been when he died.

either know the math or not. Don't make shit up of

Yoda lifting power= X

Kenobi's power = Y

Energy= Z

Scale Y...but ignore the other two variables. And oops forget Kun didn't use it on his own, and Forget Kun was using the Temple as a focal point and etc....

For christ sake...if you don't know the math...fine. But when arguing why your candidate will beat another person's ass down...don't apply pseudo math.

[The Cleric]

I've never read the comics before. Didn't even know Kun was ever involved.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

AFAIK, there aren't any books dealing with Kun, so we're going off what we have seen him do. Which is nearly defeat a Jedi Master 4000 years after his death.

And IMO, the RPG games don't count for shit in determining strengths like that. They're a game. They can't have one character being so far beyond the rest; it wouldn't play right.

Yes, it compresses the differences, but if they did it right, a more powerful character would still show as more powerful.

[Eleas]

AFAIK, there aren't any books dealing with Kun, so we're going off what we have seen him do. Which is nearly defeat a Jedi Master 4000 years after his death.

And IMO, the RPG games don't count for shit in determining strengths like that. They're a game. They can't have one character being so far beyond the rest; it wouldn't play right.

Yes, it compresses the differences, but if they did it right, a more powerful character would still show as more powerful.

I disagree with you both. It's hardly a common RPG phenomenon to downgrade known characters in order to allow the players to win. That's how you do it in computer games, not tabletop.

[Tychu]

I wonder if Jedi ghosts can fight...

Not physically, but they can affect others as well as utilize dark side monsters.

In many EU and games (games are C-level Cannon (theforce.net)) we see that jedi and sith spirits can take on "hosts" and act through them. So technically they can fight

[white_rabbit]

Worth noting as well I think that Kun threw around a lot of his force energy blasts of doom via his Sith artifact gauntlet/weapon.

The same one Naga Sadow used to destabilise a sun from his ship IIRC

[Kurgan]

I think it's a little silly that the good guys can't stick around for long, but the bad guys can roam the galaxy for thousands of years and actually do crap. I guess the Dark Side IS stronger, even in the EU!

What surprise is it? Tell me when you see Jedi able to remove a sun's core and make suns go nova, or even legends of something equivalent happening.

If you are willing to corrode your body and mind in exhange for a sump pump (your anger) to forcefully induct the Force, you will be able to get a better circulation than a Jedi, which basically uses only natural circulation.

Okay point, taken. The EU has "always" portrayed the Dark Side as being stronger. The only person who said that it wasn't was Yoda, and now Lucas himself is saying the Dark Side is stronger.

That little green jerk! ; )


As to the "Jedi Afterlife," so it really isn't one, it's just a trick that some Jedi can use, and they eventually cease to exist.

So this "becoming one with the Force" thing is really BS? Whoa.


I realize Lucas basically said that this was a "trick" that Obi-Wan & Yoda knew and Anakin learned, and that's how they become ghosts on the DVD commentaries. But this doesn't answer why Qui Gon Jinn is able to speak to Yoda 10 years after his death (in AOTC). Until Liam Neeson was in his accident, apparently he was going to appear as a full fledged ghost in the film. Lucas claims this will be explained in the last movie, but I wonder...
; )

The whole "becoming one with the Force" thing sounds like Nirvana, the secession of samsara (cycle of death and rebirth) in Buddhism and some types of Hinduism. Basically your "individual self" dies, but your being or soul (whatever you were) comes back to the "source" (brahman, basically the universal soul of all creation), like a drop of water returning to the ocean.

But who knows... It'll be interesting to see what new spin (if any) Episode III puts on it and if Lucas will change his mind about this, again.

[Kurgan]

Thanks for the person who corrected me on Truce at Bakura, I couldn't remember what book it was that Anakin appeared to Leia.

I wonder if Jedi ghosts can fight...

Not physically, but they can affect others as well as utilize dark side monsters.

In many EU and games (games are C-level Cannon (theforce.net)) we see that jedi and sith spirits can take on "hosts" and act through them. So technically they can fight

Good point! Gah, I should kick myself for forgetting about that. The Jedi Knight series is a prime example of what you just said. Not just dead Sith or "Dark Jedi" can do the "powering up living beings" trick. And even if the games weren't canon, the novelisations of that series support this idea.