[Barton]The Federation is NOT Communist.

[TheDarkling]

Riiiight —because we all know it's common practise for naval vessels to be demitilarised and turned over for civilian use. Nevermind that the Oberth- class is still in Starfleet service and you have no backing for the contention that the Vico was striken from the service beforehand.

It may still be in Federation service but it is a centuries old design of a non-combat vessel, allowing civilians to use them isn't that out of the question (especially given the Federations other views).
I simply said I wouldn’t find it surprising if it was an old Starfleet vessel handed over to civilians, I also wouldn’t be surprised if it was built explicitly for civilians.

And as for the Raven, the ship is outfitted with Starfleet-standard control and computer systems and built along Starfleet engineering patterns. No matter how desperately you try to nitpick the point to death, these two ships are examples of vessels built by the state and not any private contractor.

Ferengi ships all have a similar look inside, are we to assume that the Ferengi don't have privately owned shipyards?
The same is true of most races ships, are they all raging commies?
Of course not, but then again we don’t start with the conclusion they are Communists.
We also see the LCARS system all over the place, on Earth and various Federation worlds it doesn’t seem to exclusive to Starfleet.

Even other races just use what is essentially their version of LCARS which is everywhere within their nation and completely uniform like things are in the Federation (except the individual Federation members keep their own with just Earth and Federation government installations sharing LCARS).

Since the Raven was clearly built to Earth/Federation standards (as opposed to Vulcan, Romulans etc) it makes sense for them to have LCARS.

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy. Kindly present your evidence for private contractors building ships in the Federation.

We have no evidence for Ferengi private shipyards, just because we don't see them doesn’t mean they don't exist.
We also don’t have proof of private shipyards in TOS that I am aware of, do we therefore conclude they don’t exist?
We don’t see private shipyards in the Bajor system but they produce their own vessels and are a capitalist society.

Hasty Generalisation Fallacy, and a desperate one at that.

How so?

It says no such thing. Given what appears to be a special status for Vulcan in the Federation,

And your proof of that is?

all that tells us is that some science projects are under the control of the Vulcan authorities to at least some extent.

Not really, it tells us either the Vulcan state of private Vulcan concerns (or both) have their own science projects.
Your conclusion that they must be Vulcan state owned is unfounded.

Beyond that the fact remains that the FSC isn't the only game in town, that is what I sought to refute and it is what I have accomplished.

It does not disprove the existence of a communist UFP in which science is a state-controlled asset.

It does show that science can exist outside of the control of the Federation central government, beyond that we don't know if they were state controlled ships or independent.

We do know at the very least that local government is democratic (Troi states that the Parliamentary Democracy of Angel One is similar to her planets system, plus the Bajor example and so on) and so if the people thought it necessary to have independent science they could vote it in (assuming such doesn't already exist).

No, that is a Leap of Logic, and one which plainly ignores the fact that things have changed even between the TOS and TNG eras, never mind from any time pre-UFP. The continuation of certain conventions of terminology does not disprove the existence of a communist UFP in which science is a state-controlled asset.

I was not seeking to do such, I was showing civilian science vessels exist, they do and I have.
I have also shown that science exists outside of the control of the central government in the hands of the local governments (at the very least) which indicates the Federation Science council isn't the only route for funding, which is again a refutation of something alleged.

I have shown what I set out to show (things Mange the Swede said didn’t exist) beyond that I don't know, I cannot say with certainty that those Vulcan ships are state owned (you have but you have no proof), I do not say eth Vulcans are a special case (you do and again have no proof), I only say that civilian science vessels exist and science projects exist outside of the purvey of the Federation Science council.

[Patrick Degan]

Riiiight —because we all know it's common practise for naval vessels to be demitilarised and turned over for civilian use. Nevermind that the Oberth- class is still in Starfleet service and you have no backing for the contention that the Vico was striken from the service beforehand.

It may still be in Federation service but it is a centuries old design of a non-combat vessel, allowing civilians to use them isn't that out of the question (especially given the Federations other views).

The age of the design is utterly immaterial. That tells us exactly nothing about how recently the ship itself was in service or when exactly it was constructed. Furthermore, the Oberth is not wholly a non-combat vessel but a scout, which would carry minimal armament. The rest of your alleged point is invented out of whole-cloth. Kindly cease substituting sheer speculation for evidence.

I simply said I wouldn’t find it surprising if it was an old Starfleet vessel handed over to civilians, I also wouldn’t be surprised if it was built explicitly for civilians.

Because you need that to be so to support an increasingly threadbare argument, that is. BTW, that is also a Begging the Question Fallacy.

And as for the Raven, the ship is outfitted with Starfleet-standard control and computer systems and built along Starfleet engineering patterns. No matter how desperately you try to nitpick the point to death, these two ships are examples of vessels built by the state and not any private contractor.

Ferengi ships all have a similar look inside, are we to assume that the Ferengi don't have privately owned shipyards?

Red Herring Fallacy. Whatever may be the norm with the Ferengi is utterly immaterial to any question regarding the Federation.

The same is true of most races ships, are they all raging commies?
Of course not, but then again we don’t start with the conclusion they are Communists.

Strawman Fallacy. We're not talking about a "similar look" but control and engineering patterns which are identical to those of Starfleet vessels. And trying to handwave away all the other evidence of a communist UFP with the argument of "similar looking ships" avails you naught.

We also see the LCARS system all over the place, on Earth and various Federation worlds it doesn’t seem to exclusive to Starfleet.

Which is supposed to demonstrate what, exactly? You do realise that if there is only one stardardised computer system design and hardware interface in use Federation-wide, that bolsters rather than weakens the argument of a lack of private technological concerns.

Even other races just use what is essentially their version of LCARS which is everywhere within their nation and completely uniform like things are in the Federation (except the individual Federation members keep their own with just Earth and Federation government installations sharing LCARS).

Unfortunately, we see far fewer of other races' computer systems than we do those of the Federation. And also unfortunately, utter uniformity of design bolsters, rather than weakens, the argument that there are no competing technological concerns in existence.

Since the Raven was clearly built to Earth/Federation standards (as opposed to Vulcan, Romulans etc) it makes sense for them to have LCARS.

A capitalistic socioeconomic order would not have an utter uniformity of design to the point where the computer interface on an allegedly civilian vessel is identical to that of its military computers, nor would said vessel be identical to the engineering pattern of its military vessels.

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy. Kindly present your evidence for private contractors building ships in the Federation.

We have no evidence for Ferengi private shipyards, just because we don't see them doesn’t mean they don't exist.

But we have solid evidence for the Ferengi having a solidly capitalistic socioeconomic order which certainly implies a private shipbuilding industry —indeed, there is no evidence of any Ferengi state-owned concerns of any sort; which would contradict everything established in regards to their philosophy. You have not answered the question.

We also don’t have proof of private shipyards in TOS that I am aware of, do we therefore conclude they don’t exist?

The examples of the space cruiser Aurora from "The Way To Eden", a ship very different from Federation military design, and that of the trader vessel in STIII: TSFS, clearly indicate a private shipbuilding industry in the TOS era. You have not answered the question.

We don’t see private shipyards in the Bajor system but they produce their own vessels and are a capitalist society.

Excuse me, but exactly what establishes Bajor as a capitalistic society? We certainly know they are a borderline-theocracy, but very little else was ever presented as to how their society is organised. Furthermore, Bajor is of no relevance as to any question regarding the Federation. Exactly how many more of these Red Herrings are you intending to spill out into this thread?

Hasty Generalisation Fallacy, and a desperate one at that.

How so?

You said:

(in fact the registration plaques would have us believe some Starfleet vessels are built at private yards).

Registration plaques = private shipbuilders. That is your argument on that point in a nutshell. Kindly explain to the class how the existence of a private shipbuilding industry is demonstrated by the information on the plaques.

It says no such thing. Given what appears to be a special status for Vulcan in the Federation,

And your proof of that is?

What we're seeing now on Boobyprise. Plus the fact that Starfleet made no effort to extradite Kirk and his officers from Vulcan for four months to face charges for their crimes as per STIV: TVH. Plus the fact that one word from T'pau in "Amok Time" was sufficent to persuade the Starfleet Admiralty to not charge Kirk with disobeying a direct order and disrupting a major diplomatic exercise by doing so. No other Federation member world has been observed to wield that much influence with the Federation government in any series.

all that tells us is that some science projects are under the control of the Vulcan authorities to at least some extent.

Not really, it tells us either the Vulcan state of private Vulcan concerns (or both) have their own science projects. Your conclusion that they must be Vulcan state owned is unfounded.

Kindly inform us of privately-owned Vulcan scientific establishments as evidenced in TOS, TNG, DS9, VGR, or ENT please. Oh, and try manoeuvering your way around a Vulcan Science Directorate which can arbitrarily shut off entire lines of inquiry by declaration of its own authority ("The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible" —little mantra of T'pol's in one episode despite being smacked in the head with evidence to the contrary)

Beyond that the fact remains that the FSC isn't the only game in town, that is what I sought to refute and it is what I have accomplished.

Only in your fantasies, perhaps.

It does not disprove the existence of a communist UFP in which science is a state-controlled asset.

It does show that science can exist outside of the control of the Federation central government, beyond that we don't know if they were state controlled ships or independent.

Sorry, but the Vulcan scientific establishment doesn't exactly demonstrate science existing outside the control of the Federation central government no matter how much you believe it does. It certainly says nothing in regards to the very central role the government has been seen to play in not only initiating scientific projects but in granting approval for whole lines of inquiry.

We do know at the very least that local government is democratic (Troi states that the Parliamentary Democracy of Angel One is similar to her planets system, plus the Bajor example and so on)

WE KNOW NO SUCH FUCKING THING! Simply because a government calls itself "democratic" does not make it so; the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Korea to name one example. And Bajor has a theocratic council in addition to a nominally secular government and one which wields enough influence to the point where the declared Emissary to the Prophets can nobble the process of that planet concluding a treaty of unification with an external power.

and so if the people thought it necessary to have independent science they could vote it in (assuming such doesn't already exist).

We have no evidence for exactly how much influcence the people have in their government in the UFP.

No, that is a Leap of Logic, and one which plainly ignores the fact that things have changed even between the TOS and TNG eras, never mind from any time pre-UFP. The continuation of certain conventions of terminology does not disprove the existence of a communist UFP in which science is a state-controlled asset.

I was not seeking to do such, I was showing civilian science vessels exist, they do and I have.

You have done no such thing. Simply declaring it so does not a proof make.

I have also shown that science exists outside of the control of the central government in the hands of the local governments (at the very least) which indicates the Federation Science council isn't the only route for funding, which is again a refutation of something alleged.

You have done no such thing. Simply declaring it so does not a proof make.

I have shown what I set out to show (things Mange the Swede said didn’t exist) beyond that I don't know, I cannot say with certainty that those Vulcan ships are state owned (you have but you have no proof), I do not say eth Vulcans are a special case (you do and again have no proof), I only say that civilian science vessels exist and science projects exist outside of the purvey of the Federation Science council.

You have done no such thing. Simply declaring it so does not a proof make.

[brianeyci]

My two cents on the Science Council thing is that you should not read too much into it. From what I read from Darkling's quotation of the material, I still do not see an objection to my point -- that getting "approval" from the Science Council would mean use of Starfleet and Federation resources.

Just because we haven't seen any civilian science vessels in Star Trek, it does not mean there are none. The argument for independent governments maintaining science vessels are in my previous quotes -- that the Federation would have immense trouble forcing any of its member states to do anything that would fundamentally alter or challenge their belief system.

If the Vulcans or the Andorians decide to do their own scientific experiments and maintain their own programs, and the Federation decided to intrude in a significant manner, the Federation wouldn't have any leverage at all, other than forcing the Vulcans and Andorians to leave the Federation and therefore not be protected by Starfleet. Given that these planets are in the heart of the Federation, its not likely that the Federation would let the Romulans or Klingons just waltz in. For worlds on the fringe, this might be different.

It may be impossible for a scientist to, say, run an experiment on a star with the flagship of the Federation without the Science Council's approval. But that does not mean all research is controlled and directed. The Federation has neither the mechanisms or military capability to replace and control member states' planetary institutions. Research would go on, without the assistance of Starfleet.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Very good Darkling. I realize now that I had some sort of ingrained aprehension about communism, based on me thinking that communism was some sort of swear word like facism.

Dear sir, you appear to be using a peculiar and simplistic definition of fascism if you can in all seriousness describe it as a swear word in opposition to the now-sanitized communism. One suspects your understanding of fascism is the Orwellian concept of a word with no meaning "except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable.'"

I was not trying to allude facism to communism. I was trying to say that I saw communism = evil, just as I saw facism = evil.

My understanding of facism is based on whatever I learned in Grade 10 history, which is fuzzy. I remember Mussolini, the hand-gestures, nationalism, and so on. I also remember Hitler adopting Mussolini's tactics.

Brian

[Mange]

A totalitarian society run by civilians who are elected, where Democracy is seen in a positive light and where people believe in freedom of the press.
A society where pushy minor officials don’t fear the military, where the civilian Science Council has high authority than the military (Gambit – the FSC must given permission to access certain historical sites and Riker cannot override them) and so on and so forth.

What you are describing doesn’t fit with what we see especially with the fact that people “want” to join the Federation, why would anybody in a function democracy want to had over their freedom so easily (in a manner distinct from giving you own leaders to much power, in that you actually join a nation where you can see the end result).

Well for one thing, we have never seen (or even heard about) any elections in the UFP. Ever. It's obvious that the military runs the show in TNG, in as you said, a rather benign fashion, but it's still a dictatorship. And, since the evidence points in the direction of restricted individual freedom (including, but not restricted to, no freedom of press) with control of all aspects of society, we can't be sure of the propagandistic view of society that we are so often told about in TNG onwards.

If the Federation is a totalitarian dictatorship (putting aside the other evidence against that for the moment) then it is one so benign that people would openly prefer to join it and abandon their democracies and there is a vocal faction that think the government is too weak and wishy washy (including the real Fascistic powers).

Any "good" totalitarian society is always aware of the importance of effective propaganda. A list showing how many democratic societys joining the UFP would be interesting. Don't forget that the UFP also considers all planets within its (also, I guess, expanding) territory as their possessions (ref. Insurrection). That doesn't really leave them much choice, does it?

[TheDarkling]

Well for one thing, we have never seen (or even heard about) any elections in the UFP. Ever. It's obvious that the military runs the show in TNG, in as you said, a rather benign fashion, but it's still a dictatorship.

The Federation President is in charge when the military wants to put troops on the streets they have to appeal to him and he seemed perfectly willing to turn them down.
The Federation President is elected (in some fashion).
Betazed is a Parliamentary Democracy ("Angel One"), Vulcan is run by a council of ministers
Bajor fulfils Federation entry criteria and it is a democracy.
Riker lists Democracy as a positive (even necessary) factor in the Kes' bid for entry into the Federation.

The Federation clearly isn't a military dictatorship because the civilians are in charge and I doubt a dictatorship, for example.

Why else would Sisko say this

SISKO
Do you think the other Federation
worlds are going to sit back and
let their President be replaced by
a military dictatorship?

SISKO
Overthrowing a legitimately
elected President and giving
Starfleet direct control over
the government? Sounds like a
dictatorship to me. And I'm sure
I won't be the only one who thinks
so.

If that was already the state of play why is Sisko shocked at the idea, why does Leyton even need to overthrow the President if the real power already lies with the military?

And, since the evidence points in the direction of restricted individual freedom (including, but not restricted to, no freedom of press) with control of all aspects of society, we can't be sure of the propagandistic view of society that we are so often told about in TNG onwards.

So, we can't believe what we see unless it backs up your theory?
That certainly is convenient but I don't buy it.

I would also like to see where else personal freedom is infringed, Federation citizens have a right to privacy

SISKO
She's a Federation citizen, Odo.
You can't just invade her privacy
based on your suspicions... you'd
need to show me some real evidence
before I'd authorize what you're
proposing.

Starfleet can't just grab people and take them away, once the civilians in Angle One state they don’t want to go Riker is forced to leave (these civilians also don't have to obey the Prime Directive, the militaries first and most important rule).

The Federation has a constitution, which Picard thinks very highly of which includes the right to not incriminate yourself

PICARD
No. We must not let ourselves
think that. The Seventh Guarantee
is one of the most important
rights granted by the Federation.
We cannot use one of the
fundamental principles of our
Constitution and turn it against
a citizen.


PICARD
There is a provision within the
Federation Constitution that
protects an individual's
fundamental rights... once you
were brought aboard this
starship...

All of this evidence points to the Federation being a democracy of one sort or another, true it doesn't prove the case completely(after all a dictatorship can have a constitution) but it has far more weight to it than the opposite case (we don't hear anybody talking about voting).

Any "good" totalitarian society is always aware of the importance of effective propaganda. A list showing how many democratic societys joining the UFP would be interesting.

Bajor was about to join and was a democracy.
The Kes had applied and were a democracy.
Betazed had already joined and was a Parliamentary Democracy.

That is pretty much all we know.

Don't forget that the UFP also considers all planets within its (also, I guess, expanding) territory as their possessions (ref. Insurrection). That doesn't really leave them much choice, does it?

The events in Insurrection were clearly illegal, in Angle One Starfleet can't move civilians if they say "Don't move me", then suddenly they are going to move them to another world?

The argument was that these people were primitives and could be moved to another world without noticing where they could be planted whilst Starfleet got on with its work, still not good (and Picard thought he would have a good shot at reversing the decision) but not the outright annexation of a developed world.

[TheDarkling]

The age of the design is utterly immaterial. That tells us exactly nothing about how recently the ship itself was in service or when exactly it was constructed. Furthermore, the Oberth is not wholly a non-combat vessel but a scout, which would carry minimal armament. The rest of your alleged point is invented out of whole-cloth. Kindly cease substituting sheer speculation for evidence.

The one time we have seen an Oberth in action it was destroyed in one shot by a scout.
They clearly are not combat vessels and are interned for the other side of Starfleet’s charter.

Red Herring Fallacy. Whatever may be the norm with the Ferengi is utterly immaterial to any question regarding the Federation.

No it isn't, you stated that the uniform control system proved that the Federation only have government shipyards, I have shown that known capitalist powers also have the same conformity when it comes to control and interface systems.

Strawman Fallacy. We're not talking about a "similar look" but control and engineering patterns which are identical to those of Starfleet vessels. And trying to handwave away all the other evidence of a communist UFP with the argument of "similar looking ships" avails you naught.

The Norkova (a freighter crewed by non Starfleet people) was not built to a standard federation hull pattern yet their control systems were LCARS as well.

A common form of interface system does not prove anything, the hull construction of ship looking in the Federation style indicates that the Raven was built in a similar manner but the Federations designers are civilians, if they chose to design something for someone else they are free to do so (although I again don't see any problem with the Federation letting them have the design, the Raven is a non military vessel like the Oberth).

Which is supposed to demonstrate what, exactly? You do realise that if there is only one stardardised computer system design and hardware interface in use Federation-wide, that bolsters rather than weakens the argument of a lack of private technological concerns.

It isn't the only one in use Federation wide, it is the standard for Earth and the Federation, the other races have their own take on it (both Federation and non).
Again would you have us believe the Ferengi are communist because all their computers share the same design?

Unfortunately, we see far fewer of other races' computer systems than we do those of the Federation. And also unfortunately, utter uniformity of design bolsters, rather than weakens, the argument that there are no competing technological concerns in existence.

Yet we see it in the races that we know use money even the out and out capitalists of teh Ferengi alliance.
You cannot prove anything with the uniformity of computers without also applying it to the other places we see the phenomena which would lead us to the conclusion that the Ferengi are communists as well.

A capitalistic socioeconomic order would not have an utter uniformity of design to the point where the computer interface on an allegedly civilian vessel is identical to that of its military computers, nor would said vessel be identical to the engineering pattern of its military vessels.

We have seen it with the Ferengi.
We have seen a civilian vessel (the freighter I mentioned above) which used LCARS and in no way matched Federation hull geometry.

LCARS is a standard thing found in peoples homes, not just military vessels, so it makes sense for Human (or central Federation government) to build things to that specification.
There is no problem with the Raven using LCARS, even in a capitalist market the could license LCARS from whoever owns it to use on heir ships so having it there proves little.

But we have solid evidence for the Ferengi having a solidly capitalistic socioeconomic order which certainly implies a private shipbuilding industry —indeed, there is no evidence of any Ferengi state-owned concerns of any sort; which would contradict everything established in regards to their philosophy. You have not answered the question.

NO I have, we do not see Ferengi yards so we can’t conclude they exists, we do not ship private Federation yards so we cannot conclude they exist.
This is a clear case of our view on the Trek Universe being coloured by the perspective from which we see the episodes.

Lack of evidence of those shipyards cannot be used to prove they do not exist given our limited viewpoint, you belief that the Raven was built at state owned yards rests upon the idea that no private yards exist, we don't know that and so can't assume the former idea.

The examples of the space cruiser Aurora from "The Way To Eden", a ship very different from Federation military design, and that of the trader vessel in STIII: TSFS, clearly indicate a private shipbuilding industry in the TOS era. You have not answered the question.

The Vulcan freighters we have seen are clearly not Federation standard.
Andorians, Bolians, Rigellians all have their own freighters.

The Norkova from DS9 Episode 9 was not your standard Federation style ye it was operated by humans and contained a LCARS interface.
Okona's ship was not Federation standard.

Excuse me, but exactly what establishes Bajor as a capitalistic society? We certainly know they are a borderline-theocracy, but very little else was ever presented as to how their society is organised. Furthermore, Bajor is of no relevance as to any question regarding the Federation. Exactly how many more of these Red Herrings are you intending to spill out into this thread?

Well that is the standard excuse used for anything involving commerce on DS9, it isn't in Federation space and thus doesn't count.

And again you purposefully miss the point, if we do not see the same things in two cases then you cannot infer a different conclusion from the same evidence.
You are using the fact that the Federation bans private Enterprise to differentiate it from the Ferengi (who have no visible shipyards either and have a standard interface) but the problem is tat you haven’t proven the Federation has banned private Enterprise.
We have no reason to suppose the Federation can't have private shipyards (which obviously exist since no Federation style ships are built at Federation worlds) without using an unproven assumption in the initial judgement.

Registration plaques = private shipbuilders. That is your argument on that point in a nutshell. Kindly explain to the class how the existence of a private shipbuilding industry is demonstrated by the information on the plaques.

You misunderstood me.
One of the registration plaques lists a private ship builder as the constructor (Somebody propulsion systems), I didn't mean that just because they had plaques they must be privately built (which is an odd idea).
However I personally take the plaques with a grain of salt.

What we're seeing now on Boobyprise.

Do elaborate.

Plus the fact that Starfleet made no effort to extradite Kirk and his officers from Vulcan for four months to face charges for their crimes as per STIV: TVH. Plus the fact that one word from T'pau in "Amok Time" was sufficent to persuade the Starfleet Admiralty to not charge Kirk with disobeying a direct order and disrupting a major diplomatic exercise by doing so. No other Federation member world has been observed to wield that much influence with the Federation government in any series.

Yet we see Andorian freighters and Bolian freighters and so on, clearly meaning that they can build and operate their own ships too.

However, when did we see Kirk and Co try to claim asylum on Andoria and the Andorians were unable to oblige?

The fact that member worlds can harbour people from the central government is yet another strike against the totalitarian theory.

As for T'Paus's word, Sisko is clear on DS9 that having an ambassador as a friend can help out a Starfleet officers career and the Ambassadors Julian was handling weren't just Vulcans.
IT’Pau is obviously a big figure on Vulcan and carriers a lot of weight, her smoothing things over with Starfleet is perfectly reasonable and is no way shown to b a unique Vulcan ability (that would be, yet another unsupported assumption you made).

Kindly inform us of privately-owned Vulcan scientific establishments as evidenced in TOS, TNG, DS9, VGR, or ENT please.

You prove to me that those Vulcan science ships we hear about are state owned.

You can't because all we know is that they exist, you are making an unfounded assumption that they must be state owned, I state we don't know.

So let us see you prove they are state owned first.

Oh, and try manoeuvering your way around a Vulcan Science Directorate which can arbitrarily shut off entire lines of inquiry by declaration of its own authority ("The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible" —little mantra of T'pol's in one episode despite being smacked in the head with evidence to the contrary)

There is nothing to show that they shut down all lines of research on the matter, just that they studied it and came to the conclusion it couldn't happen and that their word is enough for T'Pol.
However you must remember that this is before the supposed revolution, the existence of such a government body only weakens the case that it would be exclusive to communism.

Only in your fantasies, perhaps.

You have done nothing to refute it, in fact you have tried to ignore the issue and drag the discussion onto a battle over whether the Federation is communist, I can only assume you how to camouflage your failure to refute my points(you have only claimed that the Vulcans are a special case without any evidence to back it up, and since you have already accepted that the Vulcans can do things outside of the FSC you have already conceded the point).

Sorry, but the Vulcan scientific establishment doesn't exactly demonstrate science existing outside the control of the Federation central government no matter how much you believe it does. It certainly says nothing in regards to the very central role the government has been seen to play in not only initiating scientific projects but in granting approval for whole lines of inquiry.

You have yet to prove that those ships were Vulcan state owned, and even if they were then that shows that somebody outside of the FSC has the resources to conduct independent research.

WE KNOW NO SUCH FUCKING THING! Simply because a government calls itself "democratic" does not make it so; the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Korea to name one example.

Angel One makes it clear that Betazed is more or less a Constitutional state ruled by an elected Parliamentary body.
Betazed is a Federation world, Bajor fulfilled admittance criteria and was a democracy, the Kes being a democracy was a plus.

The evidence is there, I keep stating it and nobody has yet refuted it.

And Bajor has a theocratic council in addition to a nominally secular government and one which wields enough influence to the point where the declared Emissary to the Prophets can nobble the process of that planet concluding a treaty of unification with an external power.

I'm sure if Jesus appeared and told Americans to get out of NAFTA he would have more than the odd person going along with it.

Bajor is a democracy, even though there is a separate and important religious authority the fact is that the head leader of the Church is also elected democratically.

Let us remember that this is the way the people of Bajor want it and so a democracy will automatically lead to that result.

We have no evidence for exactly how much influcence the people have in their government in the UFP.

We know that at the very least local government can and is democratic, we also know that the Federation President is an elected position.

The people clearly have some control over events going on, and again, if the Federation was as bad as people want it to be why would other democratic nations want to join?

You have done no such thing. Simply declaring it so does not a proof make.

The SS Vico was clearly crewed by civilians, thus it was a civilian science vessel.
It may be under government control but it is a civilian authority not a military one, I have shown that both with the Vico, the Raven and the Vulcan science ships.
You have conceded the Vulcan science ships (although you have tacked on some unsupported ideas) so you must see that civilian science can and does occur.

You have done no such thing. Simply declaring it so does not a proof make.

You conceded the Vulcan example, so I have done so.

You have done no such thing. Simply declaring it so does not a proof make.

You conceded the Vulcan example, so you have already conceded that I have done so.
If you don't wish to admit that then that is fine (I wouldn’t expect you to do so) but the fact refines that I have shown it.

If anybody else in the thread looks at the evidence and has something to say about then I am welcome to hear it but you haven't refuted it or even really added to the discussion in any way.

[Bellator]

"The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible"

This was in pre-UFP days, things can change in a century. According to recent reports, Enterprise's 4th season will deal with changes in Vulcan's society and behaviour, from Enterprise-style Vulcans to TOS/TNG-style Vulcans. Let's pray the guys running Enterprise won't mess this thing up as well.

[Patrick Degan]

If anybody else in the thread looks at the evidence and has something to say about then I am welcome to hear it but you haven't refuted it or even really added to the discussion in any way.

This latest Wall of Ignorance erected on this site by the Darkling Construction Co.

[brianeyci]

This latest Wall of Ignorance erected on this site by the Darkling Construction Co.

Yeah, but he didn't just say that one sentence, he replied to your points. Are you going to reply to his latest points?

Brian

[Patrick Degan]

Yeah, but he didn't just say that one sentence, he replied to your points. Are you going to reply to his latest points?

Brian

Wholesale dismissial of inconvenient evidence is not a reply. He got the rebuttal he deserved.

[Mange]

I have shown what I set out to show (things Mange the Swede said didn’t exist)

Boy, you're quite sure of yourself, aren't you? Would you care to explain exactly what those things are? While you do that, I thought I would take a look at your latest posts.

You wrote:

No it didn't it was either independent or it belonged to the science council (the SS Raven and the SS Vico are both science Vessels and both registered as NAR- #### not NCC -### and both called SS not USS, despite the fact that Magnus Hansen consistently calls it USS the hull is clear on the matter).

Well, what is that suppose to prove? It only shows even more clear that the Science Council isn't an independent body, but controlled by the government. You cannot escape that fact, how hard you even try.

The Federation President is in charge when the military wants to put troops on the streets they have to appeal to him and he seemed perfectly willing to turn them down.
The Federation President is elected (in some fashion).
Betazed is a Parliamentary Democracy ("Angel One"), Vulcan is run by a council of ministers
Bajor fulfils Federation entry criteria and it is a democracy.
Riker lists Democracy as a positive (even necessary) factor in the Kes' bid for entry into the Federation.

The Federation clearly isn't a military dictatorship because the civilians are in charge and I doubt a dictatorship, for example.

Why else would Sisko say this (followed by quotes)

Democracy is a complex thing to define, but we've clearly seen in TNG onwards that basic things like free journalism and free research is restricted. Would you say that the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) was democratic? That a nation has a parliament doesn't mean it's a democracy. And I've not seen any civilians in charge from TNG onwards.

The Federation is a rectified society where the inhabitants has been heavily indoctrinated. Further, the Federation is a totalitarian society with a government, controlled by the military, and with a Socialist economy. It's as simple as that. All the evidence points in that direction. Something has happened between ST6 and TNG since the UFP President still had saying back then.

[Bellator]

then what do you think about the things Sisko and Picard have said (such as those that Darkling posted)? Can't get more specific than that.

[TheDarkling]

Boy, you're quite sure of yourself, aren't you? Would you care to explain exactly what those things are?

Since you seem to have missed them I will do you the courtesy of reiterating them, in turn I would ask you do me the courtesy of reading and responding to my points.

Well, what is that suppose to prove? It only shows even more clear that the Science Council isn't an independent body, but controlled by the government. You cannot escape that fact, how hard you even try.

I'm not trying to escape it , I'm perfectly conformable with the fact that that the Federation has a science council (just as Earth had supposedly pre revolution), it is however a civilian organ and not a military one and it is capable of overriding the military.

We have proof of civilian science vessels, we also have proof of Vulcans science vessels which may or may not be government owned (but they are not owned by the central government), we do not see an iron clad example of scientist with his own ship which is dedicated to scientific study but I don’t believe we see that during TOS either.

Democracy is a complex thing to define, but we've clearly seen in TNG onwards that basic things like free journalism and free research is restricted.

Prove, don't state.

We have seen a governmental organ exists which aids research and examines research for the government, that is as far as it goes unless you can prove it goes further.

We have seen numerous scientists pursuing their own aims just fine without the Federations say so (I have already outlined them but examples include Soong, Vash, the scientists in Force of Nature, the "scientist" in "In the Cards" and so on)

Now that I have addressed research let us look at journalism.

We know that a Federation government owned news network exists (The Federation News Service, there also seem to be a Starfleet news service but this may just be a subset of the above aimed at Starfleeters, the latter is only mentioned once and could be construed as a slip of the tongue) and that on one occasion Starfleet classified a plague on a primitive (probably non Federation world) for an unknown reason.

This is interpreted to mean that the Federation limits the press, we have no evidence of that outside a National News network (BBC, CBC, and so on undermine that idea) and the suppression of information for an unknown reason about a plague on a possibly Foreign world.

The second isn't so difficult to explain either, many nations have the ability to prevent the news from broadcasting certain information that is deemed secret (the British government for example) which means that this isn't a feature pointing towards a dictatorship.

Would you say that the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) was democratic? That a nation has a parliament doesn't mean it's a democracy. And I've not seen any civilians in charge from TNG onwards.

The nation was described as

a constitutional oligarchy. It is
governed by a parliamentary body
consisting of six elected
Mistresses, and headed by a female
they refer to as "The Elected
One."

Which Troi described as being like her world, she wasn't saying the name of the system was similar but the actual form, i.e. an elected parliamentary democracy.

The Federation is a rectified society where the inhabitants has been heavily indoctrinated.

Proof?

Further, the Federation is a totalitarian society with a government, controlled by the military, and with a Socialist economy.

Socialist in the manner that many Western nations are (i.e. social democrat) yes, it is (or at least Earth is).

You have not proven it is totalitarian and you have even further to go (and more evidence to overturn) in order to prove he military runs it.

I have outlined instances where the civilian President is willing to overrule the military, I have shown statements from military officers stating that they do not currently live in a military dictatorship (and that the people would be opposed to such an idea), I have shown that the civilian governmental bodies have greater jurisdiction in certain areas than the military and I have shown that, at least at the state level, Democracy exist and is seen as favourable (even necessary depending upon your interpretation), I have shown the Federation referred to as "a Democratic rabble" and so on, all signs point towards the Federation being a democracy of some form.

It's as simple as that.

Only if you don't examine the evidence, I have outlined it above and I would like to see what you think of it.

All the evidence points in that direction.

No it doesn't, in fact the strongest weapon in the arsenal of your theory is a lack of evidence, that is, a lack of direct onscreen elections (which is of course perfectly understandable and is affirmed elsewhere).

Something has happened between ST6 and TNG since the UFP President still had saying back then.

He still has a say now, Sisko seems to believe that the Elected President runs the show and Admiral Leyton can't put troops on the streets until the President allows him (and the President takes a lot of convincing).

[Mange]

Boy, you're quite sure of yourself, aren't you? Would you care to explain exactly what those things are?

Since you seem to have missed them I will do you the courtesy of reiterating them, in turn I would ask you do me the courtesy of reading and responding to my points.

Hello Darkling! I will of course answer your points.

Well, what is that suppose to prove? It only shows even more clear that the Science Council isn't an independent body, but controlled by the government. You cannot escape that fact, how hard you even try.

I'm not trying to escape it , I'm perfectly conformable with the fact that that the Federation has a science council (just as Earth had supposedly pre revolution), it is however a civilian organ and not a military one and it is capable of overriding the military.

Really nothing much to adress. It seems as if you don't have a problem with government controlled research. Fine.

We have proof of civilian science vessels, we also have proof of Vulcans science vessels which may or may not be government owned (but they are not owned by the central government), we do not see an iron clad example of scientist with his own ship which is dedicated to scientific study but I don’t believe we see that during TOS either.

Well, the Vulcans seems to be of a rather reclusive nature. Otherwise, the only civilian ships I can recall off-hand are those owned by various criminals and other shady personalities. Airspace over heavily populated planet is also empty, besides the vessels belonging to the military.

Democracy is a complex thing to define, but we've clearly seen in TNG onwards that basic things like free journalism and free research is restricted.

Prove, don't state.

We have seen a governmental organ exists which aids research and examines research for the government, that is as far as it goes unless you can prove it goes further.

We have seen numerous scientists pursuing their own aims just fine without the Federations say so (I have already outlined them but examples include Soong, Vash, the scientists in Force of Nature, the "scientist" in "In the Cards" and so on)

Soong was an outsider. He didn't share his findings, otherwise there would be millions of Datas' around. I bet the Federation Science Council didn't agree with him. Vash wasn't that independent, as it seems as if she sorted under the Federation Archaeology Council. Again, a government controlled body. The Force of Nature issue has already been dealt with and clearly shows the devastating negative impact the goverment controlled research has.

Now that I have addressed research let us look at journalism.

We know that a Federation government owned news network exists (The Federation News Service, there also seem to be a Starfleet news service but this may just be a subset of the above aimed at Starfleeters, the latter is only mentioned once and could be construed as a slip of the tongue) and that on one occasion Starfleet classified a plague on a primitive (probably non Federation world) for an unknown reason.

This is interpreted to mean that the Federation limits the press, we have no evidence of that outside a National News network (BBC, CBC, and so on undermine that idea) and the suppression of information for an unknown reason about a plague on a possibly Foreign world.

The second isn't so difficult to explain either, many nations have the ability to prevent the news from broadcasting certain information that is deemed secret (the British government for example) which means that this isn't a feature pointing towards a dictatorship.

Again, I'm not impressed. You have not in any way shown that there is any independent press (I hope you think it's OK with the anachronistic term) in the UFP. The examples you bring up are operated by the government.

Would you say that the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) was democratic? That a nation has a parliament doesn't mean it's a democracy. And I've not seen any civilians in charge from TNG onwards.

The nation was described as

a constitutional oligarchy. It is
governed by a parliamentary body
consisting of six elected
Mistresses, and headed by a female
they refer to as "The Elected
One."

Which Troi described as being like her world, she wasn't saying the name of the system was similar but the actual form, i.e. an elected parliamentary democracy.

Oh, brother. Do you even know what the term oligarchy means? It means rule by the few. A monarchy is an oligarchy, and an oligarchy is, by its nature, authoritarian. Oligarchy was also branded by Plato as being one of the perverted forms of government (along with a.o. democracy). She said they were elected, but not by whom. Thank you for proving my point further.

The Federation is a rectified society where the inhabitants has been heavily indoctrinated.

Proof?

I provided proof that research, as well as journalism for example, is controlled by the state. I'm sure it doesn't end there.

Further, the Federation is a totalitarian society with a government, controlled by the military, and with a Socialist economy.

Socialist in the manner that many Western nations are (i.e. social democrat) yes, it is (or at least Earth is).

Hmm, interesting quote. Sweden has a Social Democratic government (which is not what I votes for), but I wouldn't call it a socialist country. We don't have, and have never had, a socialist economy (IIRC, you're from Canada, right?). I don't really know what to make of this statement.

You have not proven it is totalitarian and you have even further to go (and more evidence to overturn) in order to prove he military runs it.

I have outlined instances where the civilian President is willing to overrule the military, I have shown statements from military officers stating that they do not currently live in a military dictatorship (and that the people would be opposed to such an idea), I have shown that the civilian governmental bodies have greater jurisdiction in certain areas than the military and I have shown that, at least at the state level, Democracy exist and is seen as favourable (even necessary depending upon your interpretation), I have shown the Federation referred to as "a Democratic rabble" and so on, all signs point towards the Federation being a democracy of some form.

Ok, I can make a small concession. Perhaps the Federation isn't controlled by the military, but by a para-military force with control of the military. It's more or less the same, but still I don't think you've proven any of your points (although I must say thank you for proving one of my points further). We have all these councils that rectifies research etc., a classical trait shared with many totalitarian regimes, the Third Reich for example (of course, I admit that the UFP is rather benign and in no way similar to the National Socialist Germany in any other aspects, so don't misunderstand me).

It's as simple as that.

Only if you don't examine the evidence, I have outlined it above and I would like to see what you think of it.

All the evidence points in that direction.

No it doesn't, in fact the strongest weapon in the arsenal of your theory is a lack of evidence, that is, a lack of direct onscreen elections (which is of course perfectly understandable and is affirmed elsewhere).

No, it's more than that. It's that we've never heard about any elections of any kind. No mentioning ever.

Something has happened between ST6 and TNG since the UFP President still had saying back then.

He still has a say now, Sisko seems to believe that the Elected President runs the show and Admiral Leyton can't put troops on the streets until the President allows him (and the President takes a lot of convincing).

I find this part interesting: "Overthrowing a legitimately
elected President..." It sounds somewhat defensive. Well, I'm too tired to elaborate further on this tonight (it's 11.23 PM here in Stockholm). Take a look at this and reply accordingly. Oh, I almost forgot. A small correction about the Raven; on displays it's labeled U.S.S. Raven (and the non-canon Star Trek Encyclopedia also labels it the U.S.S. Raven).

[TheDarkling]

Hello Darkling! I will of course answer your points.

Much obliged.

Really nothing much to adress. It seems as if you don't have a problem with government controlled research. Fine.

I don't have a problem with the government funding research and advising the central government of the importance of certain pieces of new knowledge.

We already have this in many western nations, what people have a problem with (and what I have yet to see proved) is the idea that all research must be approved by the Federation Science Council or it is forbidden.

Well, the Vulcans seems to be of a rather reclusive nature. Otherwise, the only civilian ships I can recall off-hand are those owned by various criminals and other shady personalities. Airspace over heavily populated planet is also empty, besides the vessels belonging to the military.

Space (even orbital space) is a big place, and keeping an exclusion zone around military ships (which we usually are riding along with) is a good idea.

We know private traffic exists Quark has no trouble taking his shuttle to DS9, we just don't know in what quantity (a space ship may be expensive).

Beyond criminals we also know that the Federation has (and hires) private freighter ships (the Defiant is escorting some in "Sound of Her Voice") and that Kasidy Yates (a Federation citizen) has her own ship.

Soong was an outsider. He didn't share his findings, otherwise there would be millions of Datas' around.

He conducted independent research, on a colony full of researchers, clearly the Federation does not ban non government research (as you say, he wasn't sharing his findings).

I bet the Federation Science Council didn't agree with him.

Yet they didn't send in the heavies to bust up his Lab and inform him that only government sanctioned research is allowed, ergo independent research is not banned in the Federation.

Vash wasn't that independent, as it seems as if she sorted under the Federation Archaeology Council.

Picard had no idea she was a member (and from her response to his question it looks like she wasn't a member), surely if it was forbidden to be an independent Archaeologist Picard would have assumed she was a member.

The Force of Nature issue has already been dealt with and clearly shows the devastating negative impact the goverment controlled research has.

No it doesn't and you have avoided the issue, those researchers were clearly independent, in disagreement with the FSC and yet were still able to do their research.

The incident itself was clearly an allegory for global warming and certain governments science advisors not accepting the evidence, this happens today, in capitalist nations with independent research.

Again, I'm not impressed. You have not in any way shown that there is any independent press (I hope you think it's OK with the anachronistic term) in the UFP. The examples you bring up are operated by the government.

We saw no press in TOS (putting aside Generations for the moment), yet we did not assume that it didn't exist.

We have no reason to assume there is no independent press other than basing it off the assumption that the Federation is totalitarian (or communist, or has a low opinion of free speech etc), that is circular logic.

I have my own theory on how the Federation News Network might work but it is largely supposition so I will refrain from telling you the details.

Oh, brother. Do you even know what the term oligarchy means? It means rule by the few. A monarchy is an oligarchy, and an oligarchy is, by its nature, authoritarian.

It is Oligarchy because only the Females get power, in that fashion it is isn't truly representative, however it is an elective parliamentary system and Troi said that it reminded her of her home world not that it actually was the exact same system (I would assume that on Betazed the women are more political powerful or vocal, given what Troi's mother has said on the situation).

Whilst Oligarchy means rule by the few (in Greek) it can technically be applied to any system where there are a fair number of politically disenfranchised.

You are talking the Oligarchy term out of context with the situation (i.e. sexist franchise) and the fact that it is also constitutional, elected and parliamentarian.

You could describe the British government in the exact same terms during the 19th Century however it is widely considered to be a democracy (in the broad sense of the term), rule by the people is the factor here not, “yes but only one race/gender/economic grouping”.

South Africa was an Oligarchy, because blacks weren't enfranchised, Angel One was an oligarchy because the men couldn't vote however both have votes and are democracies (although with a limited franchise) because it is the people who vote representatives who in turn run the government.

Some people believe that just about any form of government is an Oligarchy because there is always a power elite.

You could also go with the meaning of the Oligarchy because the legislative body seems to be so small, power in the hands of a few (even if they are an elected few).

Oligarchy was also branded by Plato as being one of the perverted forms of government (along with a.o. democracy). She said they were elected, but not by whom. Thank you for proving my point further.

I would think the implication is clear, it is an Oligarchy because men aren't enfranchised, however it is still a world governed by the votes of the people.

I did not prove your point but I did come as close as you have thus far.

I provided proof that research, as well as journalism for example, is controlled by the state. I'm sure it doesn't end there.

Do indulge me and restate that proof (taking into consideration the evidence I have provided) and bring in this further information, if there is so much it shouldn't be hard for you to find it.

Hmm, interesting quote. Sweden has a Social Democratic government (which is not what I votes for), but I wouldn't call it a socialist country. We don't have, and have never had, a socialist economy (IIRC, you're from Canada, right?). I don't really know what to make of this statement.

Britain and the reason I disambiguated it is because many people mean Social Democrat when they say socialist (most American right wingers term Europe socialist, although a lot of them do it as a subtle form of slander).

Ok, I can make a small concession. Perhaps the Federation isn't controlled by the military, but by a para-military force with control of the military. It's more or less the same, but still I don't think you've proven any of your points

You haven't presented any new evidence whatsoever in response to the evidence I presented.

Why don't you outline your evidence for this paramilitary organisation for a start?

(although I must say thank you for proving one of my points further).

I did no such thing, the quote taken in context (and with a view to history) makes perfect sense, however even if you were correct it still wouldn't brush aside the other quotes pointing towards the Federation being a democracy (which you haven't addressed or even acknowledged).

We have all these councils that rectifies research etc., a classical trait shared with many totalitarian regimes, the Third Reich for example (of course, I admit that the UFP is rather benign and in no way similar to the National Socialist Germany in any other aspects, so don't misunderstand me).

We have a council which funds research and acts as the governments science advisors, you have yet to prove that it has exclusive control over research and you haven't refuted the evidence I presented to the contrary.

No, it's more than that. It's that we've never heard about any elections of any kind. No mentioning ever.

Bajor has three elections whilst we are observing it, and surprisingly it happens to be the one planet that has gotten significant exposure on the show.

It also happens to be a world fully capable of joining the Federation, it is also willing to join the Federation.

Are you honestly asking us to believe that the democratic people of Bajor are willing to give up their freedom to a foreign military dictatorship just 5 years after getting rid of a foreign military dictatorship?

That is a claim that is going to need some pretty had evidence (beyond we never hear about an election during the 0.22% of a year we see).

I find this part interesting: "Overthrowing a legitimately
elected President..." It sounds somewhat defensive. Well, I'm too tired to elaborate further on this tonight (it's 11.23 PM here in Stockholm). Take a look at this and reply accordingly. Oh, I almost forgot. A small correction about the Raven; on displays it's labeled U.S.S. Raven (and the non-canon Star Trek Encyclopedia also labels it the U.S.S. Raven).

I know that but I will take the ships hull and plaque above Voyagers display, otherwise the NAR registry doesn’t make sense.

The two theories are (since this is an issue in Trek circles) it’s mission was approved by he Federation so they were officially given an USS title or it could possibly have been a Starfleet ship and then was re-commissioned as a civilian ship, Voyager just had the old Starfleet schematics (the problem with this is that the schematics still carry the NAR prefix).

In reality the FX guys just made a mistake.

[Patrick Degan]

This had to be addressed:

The two theories are (since this is an issue in Trek circles) it’s mission was approved by he Federation so they were officially given an USS title or it could possibly have been a Starfleet ship and then was re-commissioned as a civilian ship, Voyager just had the old Starfleet schematics (the problem with this is that the schematics still carry the NAR prefix).

In reality the FX guys just made a mistake.

The lengths to which you will go to deny inconvenient evidence simply boggles the mind.

And the "FX guys botched it" excuse is not a legitimate argument.

[TheDarkling]

This had to be addressed:

Anything you think you can score cheap points off does I am sure.

The lengths to which you will go to deny inconvenient evidence simply boggles the mind.

Type "SS" "USS Raven" into google and see that this has been an issue for about 5 years, I didn't just invent it.

And the "FX guys botched it" excuse is not a legitimate argument.

Which is why I offered other explanations, it really is a simple concept you know.

[Patrick Degan]

This had to be addressed:

Anything you think you can score cheap points off does I am sure.

Any way you can evade the issue you'll attempt.

The lengths to which you will go to deny inconvenient evidence simply boggles the mind.

Type "SS" "USS Raven" into google and see that this has been an issue for about 5 years, I didn't just invent it.

Which means exactly jack and shit. On-screen evidence is not subject to dispute, no matter how much the fanboys think it is.

And the "FX guys botched it" excuse is not a legitimate argument.

Which is why I offered other explanations, it really is a simple concept you know.

As simple as the concept of "observed evidence", which seems to elude you.

[Mange]

Hello, there, Darkling. Well, it seems as if we're not going anywhere.

Hello Darkling! I will of course answer your points.

Much obliged.

Really nothing much to adress. It seems as if you don't have a problem with government controlled research. Fine.

I don't have a problem with the government funding research and advising the central government of the importance of certain pieces of new knowledge.

We already have this in many western nations, what people have a problem with (and what I have yet to see proved) is the idea that all research must be approved by the Federation Science Council or it is forbidden.

Ok, but when the researches approaches the government, the Science Council puts the lid on (as shown in Force of Nature) and more or less shuts down their research. Also, in an economy where no money exists, how is research funded exactly?

Well, the Vulcans seems to be of a rather reclusive nature. Otherwise, the only civilian ships I can recall off-hand are those owned by various criminals and other shady personalities. Airspace over heavily populated planet is also empty, besides the vessels belonging to the military.

Space (even orbital space) is a big place, and keeping an exclusion zone around military ships (which we usually are riding along with) is a good idea.

We know private traffic exists Quark has no trouble taking his shuttle to DS9, we just don't know in what quantity (a space ship may be expensive).

Beyond criminals we also know that the Federation has (and hires) private freighter ships (the Defiant is escorting some in "Sound of Her Voice") and that Kasidy Yates (a Federation citizen) has her own ship.

Again, in an economy where no money exists, how do you aquire a ship? Does the government hand you one on your 18th birthday?

Soong was an outsider. He didn't share his findings, otherwise there would be millions of Datas' around.

He conducted independent research, on a colony full of researchers, clearly the Federation does not ban non government research (as you say, he wasn't sharing his findings).

I bet the Federation Science Council didn't agree with him.

Yet they didn't send in the heavies to bust up his Lab and inform him that only government sanctioned research is allowed, ergo independent research is not banned in the Federation.

No, of course not, but the government, not the research community, evaluates the results.

Vash wasn't that independent, as it seems as if she sorted under the Federation Archaeology Council.

Picard had no idea she was a member (and from her response to his question it looks like she wasn't a member), surely if it was forbidden to be an independent Archaeologist Picard would have assumed she was a member.

Ok...

The Force of Nature issue has already been dealt with and clearly shows the devastating negative impact the goverment controlled research has.

No it doesn't and you have avoided the issue, those researchers were clearly independent, in disagreement with the FSC and yet were still able to do their research.

The incident itself was clearly an allegory for global warming and certain governments science advisors not accepting the evidence, this happens today, in capitalist nations with independent research.

I addressed this earlier, if the government don't agree with your results (as in The Force of Nature) they will be ignored.

Again, I'm not impressed. You have not in any way shown that there is any independent press (I hope you think it's OK with the anachronistic term) in the UFP. The examples you bring up are operated by the government.

We saw no press in TOS (putting aside Generations for the moment), yet we did not assume that it didn't exist.

We have no reason to assume there is no independent press other than basing it off the assumption that the Federation is totalitarian (or communist, or has a low opinion of free speech etc), that is circular logic.

I have my own theory on how the Federation News Network might work but it is largely supposition so I will refrain from telling you the details.

Please do, I'm looking forward to it (for the record, I'm not being sarcastic).

Oh, brother. Do you even know what the term oligarchy means? It means rule by the few. A monarchy is an oligarchy, and an oligarchy is, by its nature, authoritarian.

It is Oligarchy because only the Females get power, in that fashion it is isn't truly representative, however it is an elective parliamentary system and Troi said that it reminded her of her home world not that it actually was the exact same system (I would assume that on Betazed the women are more political powerful or vocal, given what Troi's mother has said on the situation).

Whilst Oligarchy means rule by the few (in Greek) it can technically be applied to any system where there are a fair number of politically disenfranchised.

You are talking the Oligarchy term out of context with the situation (i.e. sexist franchise) and the fact that it is also constitutional, elected and parliamentarian.

You could describe the British government in the exact same terms during the 19th Century however it is widely considered to be a democracy (in the broad sense of the term), rule by the people is the factor here not, “yes but only one race/gender/economic grouping”.

South Africa was an Oligarchy, because blacks weren't enfranchised, Angel One was an oligarchy because the men couldn't vote however both have votes and are democracies (although with a limited franchise) because it is the people who vote representatives who in turn run the government.

Some people believe that just about any form of government is an Oligarchy because there is always a power elite.

You could also go with the meaning of the Oligarchy because the legislative body seems to be so small, power in the hands of a few (even if they are an elected few).

Interesting interpretation that doesn't impress me. Betazed isn't a democracy as a sizeable portion of the population (the men) are excluded from reaching the top political positions in society. Now, I don't believe for a second that all the men agrees with this (even if Betazed is the perfect matriarchal society). Clearly Betazed must be as efficient as the Federation at large when it comes to propaganda...

Oligarchy was also branded by Plato as being one of the perverted forms of government (along with a.o. democracy). She said they were elected, but not by whom. Thank you for proving my point further.

I would think the implication is clear, it is an Oligarchy because men aren't enfranchised, however it is still a world governed by the votes of the people.

I did not prove your point but I did come as close as you have thus far.

I think you proved my point even further. Again, a big Thank You.

I provided proof that research, as well as journalism for example, is controlled by the state. I'm sure it doesn't end there.

Do indulge me and restate that proof (taking into consideration the evidence I have provided) and bring in this further information, if there is so much it shouldn't be hard for you to find it.

You did a great job of providing the evidence in your last post, so I see no further need for it.

Hmm, interesting quote. Sweden has a Social Democratic government (which is not what I votes for), but I wouldn't call it a socialist country. We don't have, and have never had, a socialist economy (IIRC, you're from Canada, right?). I don't really know what to make of this statement.

Britain and the reason I disambiguated it is because many people mean Social Democrat when they say socialist (most American right wingers term Europe socialist, although a lot of them do it as a subtle form of slander).

Ok, I see what you mean.

Ok, I can make a small concession. Perhaps the Federation isn't controlled by the military, but by a para-military force with control of the military. It's more or less the same, but still I don't think you've proven any of your points

You haven't presented any new evidence whatsoever in response to the evidence I presented.

Why don't you outline your evidence for this paramilitary organisation for a start?

That may take a while...

(although I must say thank you for proving one of my points further).

I did no such thing, the quote taken in context (and with a view to history) makes perfect sense, however even if you were correct it still wouldn't brush aside the other quotes pointing towards the Federation being a democracy (which you haven't addressed or even acknowledged).

I will take those in consideration later, in a more comprehensive post.

We have all these councils that rectifies research etc., a classical trait shared with many totalitarian regimes, the Third Reich for example (of course, I admit that the UFP is rather benign and in no way similar to the National Socialist Germany in any other aspects, so don't misunderstand me).

We have a council which funds research and acts as the governments science advisors, you have yet to prove that it has exclusive control over research and you haven't refuted the evidence I presented to the contrary.

I have adressed this (not entirely I agree).

No, it's more than that. It's that we've never heard about any elections of any kind. No mentioning ever.

Bajor has three elections whilst we are observing it, and surprisingly it happens to be the one planet that has gotten significant exposure on the show.

It also happens to be a world fully capable of joining the Federation, it is also willing to join the Federation.

Are you honestly asking us to believe that the democratic people of Bajor are willing to give up their freedom to a foreign military dictatorship just 5 years after getting rid of a foreign military dictatorship?

That is a claim that is going to need some pretty had evidence (beyond we never hear about an election during the 0.22% of a year we see).

I will adress this later.

I find this part interesting: "Overthrowing a legitimately
elected President..." It sounds somewhat defensive. Well, I'm too tired to elaborate further on this tonight (it's 11.23 PM here in Stockholm). Take a look at this and reply accordingly. Oh, I almost forgot. A small correction about the Raven; on displays it's labeled U.S.S. Raven (and the non-canon Star Trek Encyclopedia also labels it the U.S.S. Raven).

I know that but I will take the ships hull and plaque above Voyagers display, otherwise the NAR registry doesn’t make sense.

The two theories are (since this is an issue in Trek circles) it’s mission was approved by he Federation so they were officially given an USS title or it could possibly have been a Starfleet ship and then was re-commissioned as a civilian ship, Voyager just had the old Starfleet schematics (the problem with this is that the schematics still carry the NAR prefix).

In reality the FX guys just made a mistake.

PD dealt with this.

[TheDarkling]

Hello, there, Darkling. Well, it seems as if we're not going anywhere.

That is ok, I will keep throwing out evidence and we will see what you have.

Ok, but when the researches approaches the government, the Science Council puts the lid on (as shown in Force of Nature) and more or less shuts down their research. Also, in an economy where no money exists, how is research funded exactly?

How did they put a lid on it (quote this individually and answer it).

The science council looked at the evidence, found it lacking and told them "sorry we don't agree", the scientists still continued their work and both Geordi and Data were aware of the theory so it wasn't hushed up.

As for no money, the scientist from "In the Cards" had no problem buying things for his research and TOS was explicitly said to have no money as well, how was research funded there?

Again, in an economy where no money exists, how do you aquire a ship? Does the government hand you one on your 18th birthday?

How did Harry Mudd get his ship in what Kirk told us is an economy that no longer uses money, clearly the Federation does have commerce of some sort.

We also know from Voyager that Earth’s new economy took form in the 22nd century not between TOS and TNG, so how could TNG have a radically different economy than TOS?

You are trying to disprove the idea of private property in eth Federation by working back from the conclusion that it can't exist.
It does exist and we have seen it, the question of how it exists is an open question (which I have a theory about) but it is besides the point, the evidence is there.

You haven't addressed that evidence, please do.

No, of course not, but the government, not the research community, evaluates the results.

So you concede independent research is allowed.

Good, it seems we are getting somewhere after all.

Now, the science council evaluates things fort the government, modern governments have advisors in this capacity, since the Federation allows the dissemination of research the council disagrees with ("Forces of Nature") the scientific community can make their own minds up (as Geordi and Data did).

We know that numerous conferences are held where scientist can meet, clearly the scientific community still meet and discuss issues (and judge them, just look at Dr Reyga from "Suspicions").

In fact Dr Reyga is an interesting case study, he is a Ferengi scientist who cannot get funding (in his capitalist society I might add) and in order to get that funding he comes to discuss his theories, not with the Federation science council I might add but with several other scientists (Human, Vulcan, Klingon and some odd ball race).
Yet again we don't see this suppression of research (which you don't seem to be clear on whether you believe or not anymore).

Ok...

So we agree on that as well.

I addressed this earlier, if the government don't agree with your results (as in The Force of Nature) they will be ignored.

By the government yes, this is true in modern western nations.

The scientist are free to publish papers on it and attend conferences (as Dr Regya did) and clearly other people knew of this research and had looked at it themselves (Data and Geordi).

I'm just not seeing any evidence of this suppression of research you are allege (or were alleging, then conceded didn't exist and now are alleging all within the same post).

Please do, I'm looking forward to it (for the record, I'm not being sarcastic).

Well my take on it is that it is essentially a News Service which has reporters out and about (some on specific assignments and others just following their noses) and these reports are then made available to the public.

Think AP or Reuters, they have reporters out and about but sell on the information to the front end news services such as Sky news (it isn't quite that clear cut of course, Reuters has in the past set up its own radio stations but mainly they supply news to others who then pass it on).

So then the FNS would have reporters across the Federation sending reports back which are made available to everyone with the end user being able to bypass the middle man if they wished (although these middle men may still exist, and pick out information of relevance to their readers).

The name Federation "News Service" implies the body is a wire service type organisation (a wire service encase you don't know is defined as a body established to supply news reports to newspapers, magazines, and radio and television broadcasters, which is what I outline above although perhaps in less than eloquent terms) but that isn’t iron clad.

Interesting interpretation that doesn't impress me. Betazed isn't a democracy as a sizeable portion of the population (the men) are excluded from reaching the top political positions in society.

Now, I don't believe for a second that all the men agrees with this (even if Betazed is the perfect matriarchal society). Clearly Betazed must be as efficient as the Federation at large when it comes to propaganda...

Not necessarily, Betazed is slanted towards women but there is no indication men cannot vote or cannot hold official positions (again Troi said it reminds her of home not that it was exactly the same situation) only that women tend to.
We do know that a world cannot become a Federation member if they have a caste system and excluding people from certain offices based upon their gender would be a similar sort of discrimination

I think you proved my point even further. Again, a big Thank You.

You are welcome to continue thinking that but I see no evidence of it.

You did a great job of providing the evidence in your last post, so I see no further need for it.

That is cheap and desperate, I did not prove your point at all, even in your view all I did was indicate one member world wasn't strictly democratic, what about the other worlds ready to join who are?

You have again failed to respond to this evidence and these comments do nothing to hide that fact, if you cannot provide evidence for your position then I suggest you should think about whether you have any evidence to support your position.

That may take a while...

I'm in no rush.

I will take those in consideration later, in a more comprehensive post.

I await that post then, that is the only to clearly show how your theory holds up gainst the evidence.

I have adressed this (not entirely I agree).

I honestly don't see the evidence that the Federation Science Council suppresses research, I have put forth evidence from “Force of Nature” which I hope clarifies my position which I hope you will give your opinion on.

I will adress this later.

ok.

PD dealt with this.

There is a conflict between two on screen examples we can either discard it (like we would the phaser from the Torp tube or the changing of actors) or we can reconcile it.
It doesn't really make much difference to the argument (the NAR registry makes it clear this ship was civilian at some point) but it can be reconciled and so should be.

[Mange]

Hello there, Darkling! I'm sorry that my answers became rather short there near the end of my last rebuttal, something came between just as I was writing it. I hope to make it up perhaps in a more comprehensive post (which I briefly mentioned earlier) in a few days. I've some catching up to do.

[Darth Wong]

Darkling, what evidence would you accept in order to prove that the Federation is best classified as a form of communism rather than socialist/capitalist? I'd just like to see how extreme and/or unreasonable your demands are, since you don't seem to think that Picard's ignorance of the concept of investment of Janeway's recollection of "that time in history" when salesmen existed qualify as evidence.

[TheDarkling]

Hello there, Darkling! I'm sorry that my answers became rather short there near the end of my last rebuttal, something came between just as I was writing it. I hope to make it up perhaps in a more comprehensive post (which I briefly mentioned earlier) in a few days. I've some catching up to do.

No problem.

[TheDarkling]

Darkling, what evidence would you accept in order to prove that the Federation is best classified as a form of communism rather than socialist/capitalist? I'd just like to see how extreme and/or unreasonable your demands are,

That really depends upon what exactly you label communism, I prefer to let others define it and outline exactly what the features are and then whether the Federation has them or not.

I disagree with a number of points in your essay on the Federation being communist but those things aren't all necessary for a communist society to have (which is where in theory Vs in practice communism comes in) for example.

That is why (as I have said) I am far more interested in the individual characteristics which the Federation is said to have and not the label applied to it, in that way people can't play bait and switch (the theory says X but in practice only Z was achieved).

To illustrate better, I have no problem agreeing that one of the primary means of production seems to be state owned (that is the replicators) which certainly would point in the direction of communism however I also have no problem with the fact them mining corporations exist or that private Enterprise goes on.

So where exactly does one draw the line?
Is putting food on every table and clothing on everybody and then letting them buy up land and open up businesses/ buy holiday homes/ buy star ships and run cargo enough to make a nation communist, it certainly isn't in the manner that people often try to make out (since people allege that some of these things the Federation doesn't allow)..

In short the answer to your question would be evidence that the Federation fulfils the criteria people are putting forth in favour of the Federation being communist (brainwashing, no freedom of the press, no free elections, no free enterprise allowed and so on), what exactly that evidence would be I don’t know but since there is little to indicate those things are true it isn’t something I have had to make a determination on.

you don't seem to think that Picard's ignorance of the concept of investment

When does that happen, I have gone looking for it in "The Neutral Zone" and never found it, could you please point towards the exact example.

of Janeway's recollection of "that time in history" when salesmen existed qualify as evidence.

Yet Geordi is completely familiar with the idea of a sales pitch, Bajor which fulfils the Federations criteria is visited by salesmen, Quark is clearly a salesman, the Vulcan who varies his price according to customer is certainly selling with the intent of maximising his profits.

Janeways naiveté seems to be aimed at the idea that nobody in the 24th century (in the Federation at least) would try to sell somebody something they didn't need just for money, yet she has no problem with a Vulcan doing exactly that (Tuvok must have been able to replicate a meditation lamp), Harry and Tom aren’t in the slightest bit surprised when Quark tries it on with them and so on.

Janeway clearly believes in the same “benefit of mankind” stuff Picard puts out, that doesn’t mean people aren’t making profits just that she believes they are doing it for the common good.
She is of course wrong because we see humans profit seeking on more than one occasion (Vash first pops into my mind), nobody immediately twigs when Picard pretends to be out for profit whilst undercover, the same with Troi and more than a few other occasions.

So to reiterate Janeway isn’t startled by the idea of a salesman (nobody else in the 24th century seems to be) just the idea that people would seek to gain money above all else, we have known that about Starfleet types for some time and it isn’t something new (and the quote seems to clash with her later appraisal of the Vulcan merchant but it is likely she has grown wiser in the ways of the world since she was younger).