You know what? I've actually lost my patience

[Justforfun000]

I have always been very easy going, and could sit and argue with people until I turned blue in the face. Not to mention I was good at always keeping my cool and not getting emotionally upset or angry because someone was challenging me. It was always the other person who gave up, usually by getting mad and yelling or in some cases physical.

But now? I've become very discouraged with people. The biggest problem with most people is no open mind. I swear, the great majority of people I run into have mental blocks when it comes to certain subjects, and religion is DEFINITELY one of them.

I have always been irritated when people won't actually listen to what I'm saying to them no matter how logical it is, but you know what's worse? Having them listening and yet realizing that it's NOT SINKING IN. It amazes me how people can listen to the a human language they are familiar with, and have at least the most basic, rudimentary skills pertaining to conversation, and STILL not grasp or even truly entertain the opposing ideas to their beliefs.

How do you wake people up?

I think people are just too scared to let go of their beliefs because they think the only alternative is total atheism. Maybe a tactic to try gently prying open their mind would be something along the line of "Well I personally do not believe there is a God, but disproving your specific religion and it's fundamentalism is only affecting that particular branch of religious thought. It does not mean we are disproving God or any other variation of religion, so relax and at least look for something feasible to believe in that is not currently debunked."

Maybe that would help instead of scaring them off with an immediate "God is NOT real, and you have no meaning whatsoever to the universe. Not only does it not care for you as a person, but it won't even remember you when you're gone. Consequently you won't care either because you will have ceased to exist."

I think this is the essence of why people are giving knee-jerk defensive reactions to anything unsettling their leaky raft. They are scared.

Any thoughts?

[NecronLord]

Any thoughts?

my thoughts are that I agree.

[Guest]

I personally do not have problems with religion. It is true that it has been a very influential force (good, bad, and terrible) for thousands of years. I guess the finger can be pointed to man's ignorance, intolerance, supersticion, fear, yadda yadda and a fundamentalistic mindset. Religion is not the disease; fundamentalism is. I am an atheist, and the people I work with are Church goers. We talk about it from time to time, we get irritated with one another, but I have never felt singled out or discriminated against. I am sure there is some deep psychological reason why people believe in such things as deities, ghosts, meduims, and Profits sent by the gods. I have never met a person that believes in a god and still says "Well, maybe there isn't one." From my personal, subjective experiences these people may profess the possiblity there is no creator, but if you get down to the nitty gritty, they hold the belief in a god very deeply and get all pissy at those who simply do not. Out of all the Christians that I have encounted only one seemed like she was satan incarnate. I personally have never had a bad experience with religious folk.

Wow, did I go off topic here?

[Wicked Pilot]

Reality can be a scary place.

[Darth Wong]

When we are small children, we experience deities. They bring us food, they give us shelter, they protect us from the elements and from dangers of all kinds, both from without and from within. They even protect us from ourselves. They tell us what is right, and what is wrong. They tell us what to think, and how. They tell us that everything will be all right because they love us, and we love them. They punish us when we are bad, and reward us when we are good. They are Mom and Dad.

Some (maybe most) people simply can't grow up, so they believe they must psychologically replace Mom and Dad with something else. They can't face reality on their own two feet.

[Darth Wong]

How do you wake people up?

I find that Christians are often shocked and stunned when I say "I don't believe in God". They usually respond "do you believe in anything supernatural?" And when I flatly respond "No, it's all superstitious nonsense" they honestly look as if they just got slapped upside the head with a two by four. They simply don't expect that answer.

That's when I point out the little incongruities in their prejudices: I am married, with two kids. I don't smoke, don't do drugs, rarely drink, and have never cheated on my wife. Am I what they expect of an atheist?

[Guest]

How do you wake people up?

That's when I point out the little incongruities in their prejudices: I am married, with two kids. I don't smoke, don't do drugs, rarely drink, and have never cheated on my wife. Am I what they expect of an atheist?

No, dammit! You are supposed to be a murderen', rapen', drug-dealin', child pornographin', child molestin', godless, communistic, S.O.B.! Not to mention, a homosexual too.

Or I guess, that is what Jerry Falwell would say.

Does anyone else get the funny feeling that we as a society look down on atheists than any other 'religious' group? At least everyone else beleives in something......would a freakin' Wiccan/pagan/witch have a better chance to win political office?

[salm]

i think, that at the moment muslims are looked down on more than anyone else.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

When we are small children, we experience deities. They bring us food, they give us shelter, they protect us from the elements and from dangers of all kinds, both from without and from within. They even protect us from ourselves. They tell us what is right, and what is wrong. They tell us what to think, and how. They tell us that everything will be all right because they love us, and we love them. They punish us when we are bad, and reward us when we are good. They are Mom and Dad. (emphasis mine)

Some (maybe most) people simply can't grow up, so they believe they must psychologically replace Mom and Dad with something else. They can't face reality on their own two feet.

That's the sweetest thing I ever heard you say Mike! I'm sure your parents are proud. Lata and GooD GamE!

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Hey, if bigots will excluede Atheists, why don't you get around that by saying you worship Kiher'bekh, your God of War. After all, you just have to believe in A god.

[haas mark]

I wonder....if they argue that their God says it (the Bible) is true, then what happens if you try to say that your God/dess(s/es) say/s it isn't?

[Larz]

Mikes hit it right on with Christians. Versus just your ordinary idiot they just don't know any better. Humans are habitual and we like to form a stable world in our minds which to live in. Alas, I have not found a way to break through more than 4-5 peoples worlds, sorry, some people are lost causes, and some logic, rational, and sense can penetrate, it just takes some very well crafted swords to penetrate the layers of 'self' protection.

[haas mark]

Mikes hit it right on with Christians. Versus just your ordinary idiot they just don't know any better. Humans are habitual and we like to form a stable world in our minds which to live in. Alas, I have not found a way to break through more than 4-5 peoples worlds, sorry, some people are lost causes, and some logic, rational, and sense can penetrate, it just takes some very well crafted swords to penetrate the layers of 'self' protection.

Unfortunately, some of them require the use of other weapons....metaphorically speaking, of course.

[Justforfun000]

You know what the biggest problem is? It's not even the fundamentalists. Even the average Christian is usually disconcerted by their hard-core attitude. The average believer is one I've heard aptly described as a "buffet Christian". They go up to the table and take what they think is appropriate and ignore the rest on the table.

The BEST you can say about believers in a religion is that most try to focus on the morals presented (and contradicted too, but I will get off my topic then. ), and take what is already well established as humanist values. Since many have not been shown a humanist's perspective or creed, they naturally gravitate towards what us right or wrong based on innate, sensible ideas as to how we should treat each other as human beings.

The problem is that when you get an issue that has many grey areas to it because of our societal upbringing such as abortion, homosexuality, promiscuity, etc, then they tend to fall back on what their religion says without using their own common sense faculties to objectively analyze and determine whether this issue is morally right or wrong. or NEUTRAL.

These are the people that make up the great majority who are willingly relinquishing their own ability to judge what is moral. The hardest thing to do is to get these people to look beyond their cop-out, and really LOOK at these issues with the proper consideration.

Christian Fundamentalists are relatively rare, (except in places like the southern states), and I really have no problem with the concept of Christianity. We cannot disprove Jesus Christ as an alleged son of God, but neither can we hold up the Bible to be evidence because it is ridiculously flawed. So if Christians can admit that they truly have faith that there is a God, and that Jesus is the messiah, but do not make any claims of "factual" reference using the Bible, then the best you can say is "Fine by me. You have your personal beliefs, and I cannot disprove them if all of your beliefs are emanating from a core of supernatural, untestable ideas. But neither can you prove to me what you believe, and therefore, your ideas should be practiced without affecting my life in any way unless I choose them to."

Unfortunately this is rarely the case because there are still too many people who believe that they have a "duty" to save others. *sigh*.

Obviously their INTENTIONS are good, but to borrow their own phrase, the road to hell.....

ah well. It's a tough problem, isn't it folks?

[kojikun]

The problem with fundies is that no matter how much you logically counter their arguements, theyre too stupid to realize that they're wrong or that theyre opinion isnt the only one that matters.

Fundie: The bible says so.
You: But <insert holy book here> says such and such.
Fundie: But the bible is the word of God.
You: But <book> is the word of <god>.
Fundie: But <god> doesn't exist, there is only God.
You: Incorrect. Only <god> exists.
Fundie: The bible says otherwise so you're wrong.
You: No, <book> says I'm right.

Repeat ad nauseum. Trying to defeat them with their own bullshit doesnt work either, for obvious reasons. They simply don't realize that the bible might actually be wrong.

Heres another interesting scenario..

You: Why do you believe in God, other then what you were raised to believe?
Person: Because if its true, and I believe, then I'm safe and i wont burn in hell. If its not true, no harm done.
You: But then what if you believe in god, and you die and you find yourself in front of Hades who says hes punishing you for not believing in Zeus and the rest of the Olympians? Or what about the hindu gods? Why not worship them just incase?
Person: ..

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The real driving force behind dogma of any kind, in my opinion, is fear. That wager of Pascal's has some pretty high stakes, but that's only the most obvious strain of this Fear. Underneath it there's that low background current of dread that Everything You Know Is Wrong. It's a tough and scary thing to suddenly be faced with, and it's a pain in the ass hassle as well, because suddenly you realize that if it's true, you'll have to put in some mental effort to learn New Things, and learning New Things -- in the best of circumstances -- is a time-consuming prospect. In the worst of circumstances, it's damn near impossible, because some people reach a condition of age or ball-sacking indoctrination where thinking about things in new ways has simply gone outside their envelope.

This is why religious disagreement spawns violence; when somebody comes along and starts poking holes in what you've spent your whole life believing is The Truth, the natural reaction is defensiveness in the very least. Because religious indoctrination is so insidious that it can (and usually does) consume a person's entire way of life. I don't know of anyone who wouldn't defend their entire way of life.

[jegs2]

How do you wake people up?

I find that Christians are often shocked and stunned when I say "I don't believe in God". They usually respond "do you believe in anything supernatural?" And when I flatly respond "No, it's all superstitious nonsense" they honestly look as if they just got slapped upside the head with a two by four. They simply don't expect that answer.

That's when I point out the little incongruities in their prejudices: I am married, with two kids. I don't smoke, don't do drugs, rarely drink, and have never cheated on my wife. Am I what they expect of an atheist?

I'm neither shocked nor stunned. I think that both belief and the lack of it should be respected. In my line of work, I work with athiests, Buddhists, Moslims, Christians and various other folks with religious beliefs. If they ask me what I believe, then I'll tell them. Every once in a while, someone will wish to delve into detail about what I believe, and when that happens, I'll talk to them about it.

[Darth Wong]

I'm neither shocked nor stunned. I think that both belief and the lack of it should be respected. In my line of work, I work with athiests, Buddhists, Moslims, Christians and various other folks with religious beliefs. If they ask me what I believe, then I'll tell them. Every once in a while, someone will wish to delve into detail about what I believe, and when that happens, I'll talk to them about it.

Yeah, but you're a moderate Christian. Religious bigotry is like racial bigotry; you can walk by 20 people who leave you alone, but just ONE person accosts you and says "why don't you chinamen all go back you belong" and your whole mood is ruined for the rest of the day. Similarly, I can know dozens and dozens of nice Christians, but I meet a fundie (all of whom are basically the same) who spouts his intolerant bullshit and I'm pissed off for the rest of the day. And (here's the other parallel) the moderates tend to think the extremists are no big deal. Normal white people aren't racist, but a lot of them act as though I don't have a right to get medieval on a racist when I meet one (because "he's just misguided"). Normal Christians try to be open-minded, but a lot of them act as though I'm way out of line when I let a fundie have it with both barrels for being an intolerant asshole (because "he's just misguided").

[Guest]

I'm neither shocked nor stunned. I think that both belief and the lack of it should be respected. In my line of work, I work with athiests, Buddhists, Moslims, Christians and various other folks with religious beliefs. If they ask me what I believe, then I'll tell them. Every once in a while, someone will wish to delve into detail about what I believe, and when that happens, I'll talk to them about it.

Normal Christians try to be open-minded, but a lot of them act as though I'm way out of line when I let a fundie have it with both barrels for being an intolerant asshole (because "he's just misguided").

Wouldn't the whole "he's just misguided" deal go along with the fact that they are both Christians to begin with i.e. my mother/father/brother/sister/friend is an asshole, but I would have more sympathy for them because of the kinship. I am thinking the mentality between moderate Christians and fundamentalists would be simliar....generally speaking of course. I mentioned ealier that I used to work with a lot of active church going Christians, and one of them mentioned that he would have nothing to do with the likes of Benny Hinn.

[XPViking]

That's when I point out the little incongruities in their prejudices: I am married, with two kids. I don't smoke, don't do drugs, rarely drink, and have never cheated on my wife. Am I what they expect of an atheist? - Darth Wong

For some people, yes, you don't fit their image of what an atheist "ought to be." When I drive and someone cuts me off, I flip them the finger. When I become extremely angry I swear. Am I what a Christian "ought to be?" You can rightly take me to task in that I'm not always being kind and considerate to my neighbor and thus being hypocritical (since my actions here are contrary to what I profess to believe in), but are you certain that you always live up to your own standards?

In other words, I think that the stereotypical views that certain groups have of others are sometimes unrealistic and not always grounded in real-life. It also hinders communication. Perhaps we need more understanding, more realistic communication, and more patience between the groups rather than just plain bashing.

XPviking

[Durandal]

Thus, we delve into the religious bigotry that is "True Christianity," where "True Christians" don't follow the Bible at all, pretend that certain parts simply don't exist, and always work from the assumption that modern secular values are what the Bible supported all along.

Suuuuuuure.

[data_link]

Read my sig.

[The Dark]

Normal Christians try to be open-minded, but a lot of them act as though I'm way out of line when I let a fundie have it with both barrels for being an intolerant asshole (because "he's just misguided").

Nah, let 'em have it. I do. Funniest thing I can remember from the last couple weeks was one of my friends telling a really annoying fundie here on campus that he's a narrow-minded bigot. The guy actually didn't even pause in his tirade. The only thing I won't tolerate is intolerance (which may sound hypocritical, but I think it's logically supportable...though logic isn't my strong point at 1:30 am). I live in the south, and the fundie level is frightening. It's bad when the only people you know are either Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Southern Baptist, or Jehovah's Witness (except for the four of us in my high school who were Methodist and the atheists, who probably numbered about one thousand). I'm not saying they're all fundies (actually, the Mormons I knew were very nice people who never tried to force their religion on me...I had to nag them to get explanations for things), but it was conservative to the extreme. Our cheerleaders had to wear long sleeves (though not long skirts...explain that to me?), and our color guard wore what basically amounted to black catsuits with little frilly things on them. That's why I want to get out of the south as soon as I can, besides the whole "lowest per-capita incomes in the USA" thing. New England has almost double the per capita income of the old CSA, and it shows in the public services.

[Coyote]

Fundies of any religion spoil it for the rest of us, and make regular folks trying to do the right thing look bad. Durandal, I am sure you will scoff, but I think that the most basic concepts of the world's religions are, indeed, to treat others as you would want to be treated yourself. But the "word of God" is a powerful justifier when some despot wants to do something fucked up, and unfortunantely most people are too scared to rise against the social leader.

I can't stand those Kahanist bastards that go out and kill Arabs and then pretend they are working on my behalf. Like hell! That gives all the fuel in the world to fucklicks like WAR who want to portaray Jews like the new-age Nazis. I told my friends in Israel "the Holocaust was not an internship" and meant it. So whenever you see a racist (sexist, whatever) of any stripe, by all means, put the dog down (rhetorically speaking, of course).

[Durandal]

Fundies of any religion spoil it for the rest of us, and make regular folks trying to do the right thing look bad. Durandal, I am sure you will scoff, but I think that the most basic concepts of the world's religions are, indeed, to treat others as you would want to be treated yourself. But the "word of God" is a powerful justifier when some despot wants to do something fucked up, and unfortunantely most people are too scared to rise against the social leader.

Yes, I will scoff, because religions were clearly created to explain the unexplainable and to control the masses through divine legislative dictate, or an appeal to authority. The central messages of the Bible and Qua'ran aren't to treat your neighbor kindly because he deserves it as a basic human right, they are to treat your neighbor kindly because the Invisible Man said so. You can't very well maintain control over people by telling them it's OK to kill each other, can you?

I can't stand those Kahanist bastards that go out and kill Arabs and then pretend they are working on my behalf. Like hell! That gives all the fuel in the world to fucklicks like WAR who want to portaray Jews like the new-age Nazis. I told my friends in Israel "the Holocaust was not an internship" and meant it. So whenever you see a racist (sexist, whatever) of any stripe, by all means, put the dog down (rhetorically speaking, of course).

Then petition to whatever high court or similar committee of pomposity to delete the entire Old Testament, as it encourages such behavior.