Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-04 06:18pm

Sovereign wrote:It was Plasma Technology(laser cannons) that the Rebels used against the SSD and brought down its shields. It is affective, when used right

Yes, because sinc they have the same names, they have the same power level, right? Idiot.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-04 06:20pm

Ender wrote:
Sovereign wrote:It was Plasma Technology(laser cannons) that the Rebels used against the SSD and brought down its shields. It is affective, when used right
Yes, because sinc they have the same names, they have the same power level, right? Idiot.

Sovereign doesn't know the meaning of the word 'power'

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-11-04 06:45pm

Due to the staggering stupidity and lack of constructive debate, I hereby request a moderator to flush this into the Sewer and Hall Of Shame.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2002-11-04 07:27pm

You people are really somthing. You are quick to counter act everything I say, and continue to ask for numbers, but you fail to show me anything important. All I hear is, "Your a fucking moron, and shut the fuck up!"

Come on show me somthing important. Besides do numbers really mean anything. You are judging Numbers to Technology that doesnt even exist!

I am trying to do everything with common sence, and all you want to do is flame and count no existant numbers. Start Quoting text from cannon books, and showing pictures from movies, because those are the only true cannon, not some numbers a smart made up on his spare time. I will continue this debate for the hell of it, if you dont like it, I dont know what to tell ya.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-04 07:28pm

You first.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-11-04 07:33pm

You are judging Numbers to Technology that doesnt even exist!

don't pull that shit, otherwise what is the whole point of this little debate.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-04 07:36pm

Yes, if you're going to pull the "none of it even exists!" argument, then just go the fucking hell away, cunt-drop.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-11-04 07:37pm

Sovereign wrote: You people are really somthing. You are quick to counter act everything I say, and continue to ask for numbers, but you fail to show me anything important. All I hear is, "Your a fucking moron, and shut the fuck up!" Come on show me somthing important. Besides do numbers really mean anything. You are judging Numbers to Technology that doesnt even exist! I am trying to do everything with common sence, and all you want to do is flame and count no existant numbers. Start Quoting text from cannon books, and showing pictures from movies, because those are the only true cannon, not some numbers a smart made up on his spare time. I will continue this debate for the hell of it, if you dont like it, I dont know what to tell ya.

Death Star firepower: 1e38J. Effect: Blows up a planet that's shielded. Result: ST is fucked.

Acclamator Firepower: 200 Gigatons per shot. Source: AOTC ICS. Result: ST is fucked.

Your turn, fuckface.

Needa · Post by **Needa** » 2002-11-04 07:45pm

[icon_rolleyes.gif] You people are really somthing. You are quick to counter act everything I say, and continue to ask for numbers, but you fail to show me anything important.

Perhaps you are not paying attention enough to what's being said already.
It's not by bringing some nice images that you will gain any point. You need more. The debaters wants concrete evidences, not some light interpretation of yours.

If you think people here fail to show you anything important, read again.

Two bits of advice for you:

Reread what's being said before. This topic is 12 pages long. Then go studying Mr. Wong's work. Then return here and prove us wrong if you can.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-04 07:46pm

That won't work.

This bastard has an agenda.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-11-04 07:57pm

Ghost Rider wrote: 3. The SD packs multiple 200+GT cannons...none of which the Borg shields can repel.

Right there, on the second page, the 200 gigaton SW:AotC ICS that brought this debate to a close to all but the most ignorant of trekkies, not to mention the stats that are STICKYED to the top of this page as refrence. There's your numbers bitch, oh but, all your've read is the little shit in this one thread you fucking troll.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-04 07:58pm

Sovereign wrote: You people are really somthing. You are quick to counter act everything I say, and continue to ask for numbers, but you fail to show me anything important. All I hear is, "Your a fucking moron, and shut the fuck up!" Come on show me somthing important.

We have but you have ignored them.

Besides do numbers really mean anything.

YES, NUMBERS MEAN EVERYTHING IN THESE DEBATES!!!!!

Which car is faster? The one that can do 100 mph or 200 mph?
Whats more destructive? 1 grenade or 100 grenades?
Whats brighter? A 10 watt lightbulb or a 100 watt bulb?

Do you see a pattern here?!?!?!?

You are judging Numbers to Technology that doesnt even exist!

What an original tactic. Cry that SW and ST don't actually exist. Sure sign that someone knows he's getting his ass kicked but won't admit it. Sad

I am trying to do everything with common sence, and all you want to do is flame and count no existant numbers. Start Quoting text from cannon books, and showing pictures from movies, because those are the only true cannon, not some numbers a smart made up on his spare time. I will continue this debate for the hell of it, if you dont like it, I dont know what to tell ya.

This site is full of pics from the canon films and TV episodes from both universes. Mike and others have used those pics to produce calculations of how powerful the weapons from each universe really are with SW being the clear winner. You on the other hand just post a pic and say, "see, I'm right" without explaining how that pic supports your position. How is your method "common sense"?

I'll say this again: you need to produce some numbers to show that one particular weapon is more powerful than another, not just list off a bunch of MEANINGLESS technobabble from the show.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-04 08:01pm

Sovereign wrote: You people are really somthing. You are quick to counter act everything I say, and continue to ask for numbers, but you fail to show me anything important. All I hear is, "Your a fucking moron, and shut the fuck up!" Come on show me somthing important.

We have but you have ignored them.

Besides do numbers really mean anything.

YES, NUMBERS MEAN EVERYTHING IN THESE DEBATES!!!!!

Which car is faster? The one that can do 100 mph or 200 mph?
Whats more destructive? 1 grenade or 100 grenades?
Whats brighter? A 10 watt lightbulb or a 100 watt bulb?

Do you see a pattern here?!?!?!?

You are judging Numbers to Technology that doesnt even exist!

What an original tactic. Cry that SW and ST don't actually exist. Sure sign that someone knows he's getting his ass kicked but won't admit it. Sad

I am trying to do everything with common sence, and all you want to do is flame and count no existant numbers. Start Quoting text from cannon books, and showing pictures from movies, because those are the only true cannon, not some numbers a smart made up on his spare time. I will continue this debate for the hell of it, if you dont like it, I dont know what to tell ya.

This site is full of pics from the canon films and TV episodes from both universes. Mike and others have used those pics to produce calculations of how powerful the weapons from each universe really are with SW being the clear winner. You on the other hand just post a pic and say, "see, I'm right" without explaining how that pic supports your position. How is your method "common sense"?

I'll say this again: you need to produce some numbers to show that one particular weapon is more powerful than another, not just list off a bunch of MEANINGLESS technobabble from the show.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2002-11-04 08:06pm

Does anyone know how big a Borg Cube is, or how many weapons it has, or how powerful its engines are? No, I didnt think so!

A Borg Vessel possably cold go as fast as an ISD because the Transwarp Technology allows a vessel to reach any speed. Every Cannon ST book about Transwarp states this.

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD. Perhaps a ISD could destroy a couple Borg vessels, but in the End they will adapt. And 200 Borg Ships, each one that dwarfs a ISD could charge in and destroy any Imperial Fleet.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-11-04 08:08pm

Plasma is not one set figure. Correct me if I'm wrong(I'm just in high school), but here's an example. The light from the lightbulb above your head is plasma, as well as a fire your fire place, do you think these two are both the same powerlevel?

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2002-11-04 08:12pm

How about These

"Turbolasers" are the term used for heavy non-solid artillery weapons utilized by the Galactic Empire. Despite the somewhat misleading name, turbolaser technology actually has little to do with lasers. The technology applied in turbolasers spans many different classes of beam weapons from the heavy cannons aboard Star Destroyers, to the common blaster rifle.

The heart and lifeblood of turbolaser technology is an exotic gas known as Tibanna. It is a naturally occurring compound usually forged in the deeper layers of some gas giants. Unrefined Tibanna is gaseous at temperatures above 144.32 Kelvin and solidifies at approximately 2.35 Kelvin, but no sample of Tibanna has ever been cooled below 10 Kelvin. It is theorized that a pure and refined sample of Tibanna would begin to crystallize at temperature extremes below 5.92 Kelvin, but this has not been proven.

Elemental gases such as pure argon or hydrogen only absorb light energy at 26% or 32% efficiency, respectively, and most gaseous compounds do not absorb at efficiencies exceeding 5%. However, Tibanna's basic molecular shape allows it to absorb photon energy at approximately 52.5% efficiency, an unprecedented amount in energy-particle interaction. Refined Tibanna, that is, Tibanna which has been naturally forged and irradiated in the pressure currents found in the middle-layers of a gas giant, will absorb photons at 79.6% efficiency, making it ideal for use as an energy-delivery system.
Raw Tibanna forms under the exceedingly strong gravity pressures found in the heart of some gas giants as a "branch" of a larger, heavier molecule composed primarily of nickel and iron. Heavy Oxygen, usually O18 isotopes bond with a group of molecules at the base of the Tibanna sprout, and allow it to break free of the larger molecule. This form of raw Tibanna will gradually rise toward the middle layers, where it comes in contact with a thin neutron belt. These neutrons are usually free-floating subatomic particles condensed in a layer less than 1.0x10^(-12) inches thick, released from the violent collision of heavier metal atoms in the layers below. These free-floating neutrons spin in immense vortex's at speeds nearing .05% of c.
The hydrogen atoms of the Tibanna molecule collide with these free neutrons, creating Deuterium and Tritium isotopes. Most often, these Tibanna molecules are destroyed by the collision, and dissipate either into smaller gas molecules, or some of the atoms are hit so hard they transmutate into heavier elements and pull the molecule back toward the heart of the gas giant.
However, a small amount (less than 1%) of the raw Tibanna retains atomic cohesion and gains one atom of deuterium and three atoms of tritium, while losing one carbon and one nitrogen atom. This process is known as spin-stabilization, and produces refined Tibanna. Experimentation with artificial spin-stabilization techniques (Left) consistently produce inferior results, thus naturally spin-stabilized Tibanna gas is highly prized.

Compared with advanced space weaponry, traditional lasers are neither reliable, efficient, or particularly effective against anything except a target of known composition. Photons can carry a great amount of energy and travel at un-anticipateable speeds, but behave in a widely varying amount of ways depending on the type of matter they come in contact with. The most amusing example of this comes from space battles of millennia past, where it was said that the Old Republic's laser weaponry actually reflected off of an enemy vessel's hull and hit the ship it originated from. Other, less embarrassing failures happened when lasers would simply pass through an enemy ship, like glass, without causing any damage, or would simply heat up parts of an enemy hull before the cold of space quickly prevented any serious ill effects.

Particles with a discernable mass, however, like protons, neutrons, and electrons, are not nearly so fickle; the range of damage that these types of energy-carriers cause is much more predictable, but comes at the price of efficiency. Photons are 100% efficient energy carriers, a claim that no other known particle or substance can make. Imperial turbolaser technology takes advantage of this by using intense focused lasers to energize compact pockets of Tibanna (Below left) until the weak molecular bonds of the gas break down at 4,000 Kelvin. Once that occurs, a second beam of photons is introduced that excites the free molecules to over 10,000 Kelvin, at which time the electrons on the individual atoms break away and the gas becomes plasma.

These pockets of plasma are retained in a small magnetic bottle at the base of the turbolaser barrel (Above middle and above left), until the moment the weapon discharges. When it does, the magnetic seal at the mouth of the containment chamber is released, and a ring pulse guides and accelerates the excited atoms along the barrel and out of the apparatus (Below left). The visible effect is a condensed bolt of green glowing plasma (Below right), directed at high velocities (anywhere up to .25c) toward a target. Less refined or impure Tibanna will yield different color bolts ranging anywhere from red to blue to green.

As the plasma bolt travels through space, it is accompanied by a beam of invisible electrons that propagate along the bolt's desired trajectory at the speed of light. These electrons are generated at the mouth of the turret and "spin" around the path of the plasma bolt, creating an electromagnetic tube which helps to focus the packet and keep it from dispersing over long distances. Without this "electron jacket," the turbolaser bolt quickly dissipates into harmless gas, and it is this jacket which ray shielding works to counteract. Often, when a turbolaser impacts a vessel, it is this electromagnetic field which exerts a sizeable force on a target, resulting in a distinct impact sensation compared to a physical collision.

Blasters operate on a similar principle to turbolasers, but only heat up the Tibanna to 4,500 Kelvin using a power cell instead of a laser; higher temperatures would be harder to control and require a larger magnetic shielding apparatus.

Because of the nature of turbolaser weapons, tremendous amounts of excess heat are often generated and require cryosystems for cooling purposes. Failure of these systems can cause an emplacement to quickly overheat and explode. A diagram of a typical turbolaser emplacement can be seen at the left.
This configuration can vary widely between different manufacturers and classes of emplacements. Light turbolasers typically sport no armor plating, and an integrated fire control system at the base of the turret. Other emplacements may be totally computerized, but this is uncommon.

As far as StarFleet captains were concerned, what turbolasers lacked in accuracy, they more than made up for in brute power. These plasma weapons, among the most common artillery used within the Galactic Empire, are capable of concentrating high amounts of energy across a relatively small area, making it difficult for starship shields to appropriately compensate. As turbolaser bolts impacted the shields of Federation starships, they would put a large strain on one or two of the vessel's shield generators, often causing local power overloads; drilling holes in the vessel's shield bubble.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-11-04 08:12pm

Sovereign wrote:Does anyone know how big a Borg Cube is, or how many weapons it has, or how powerful its engines are? No, I didnt think so!

A Borg Cube is 3,000 meters long, 3,000 meters tall, and 3,000 meters across for a volume of 27,000 cubic meters.

It's weapons have be calculated with on-screen evidence to be well below neccessary hundred of gigatons yields neccessary to hurt an ISD.

Sovereign wrote:A Borg Vessel possably cold go as fast as an ISD because the Transwarp Technology allows a vessel to reach any speed. Every Cannon ST book about Transwarp states this.

Paramount policy says only TV shows and movies are canon. Borg transwarp speeds seen in the above canon sources are significantly lower the hyperdrive speeds except for transwarp conduits which are of limited strategic and tactical use anyway.

Doesn't matter, because on turbolaser blast can kill a Cube because we've done the calcs.

Sovereign wrote:A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD. Perhaps a ISD could destroy a couple Borg vessels, but in the End they will adapt. And 200 Borg Ships, each one that dwarfs a ISD could charge in and destroy any Imperial Fleet.

Prove they adapt through anything except frequency, which is what the evidence supports. Turbolasers don't have frequencies.

What is a "Battleship Cube?"

Sure, a WW I Dreadnaught is bigger then a modern frigate, but the latter can blow a Dreadnaught out of the water with long-range antiship missiles. Where's size matter there?

Each Borg ship lacks firepower that can hurt an ISD except in the hundreds or thousands of hits. Each ISD shot will kill a Cube.

The Empire wins. The End.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-11-04 08:14pm

Doesn't your last post agree with us?

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-11-04 08:14pm

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD. Perhaps a ISD could destroy a couple Borg vessels, but in the End they will adapt. And 200 Borg Ships, each one that dwarfs a ISD could charge in and destroy any Imperial Fleet.

Superlaser fire from the Eclipse and Sovereign star destoryers will vaporize thousands of borg cubes like nothing, since the EGVV states they can rip entire contients from a planet, really a awesome engine of war

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/daggerid.html

check out these bad boys here: evil laugh.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-11-04 08:18pm

Does anyone know how big a Borg Cube is, or how many weapons it has, or how powerful its engines are? No, I didnt think so!
Borg cube?
3000 m a side is google's answer

Weapons? Clearly not enough

When you send 1 ship against a fleet of ships you want enough to beat them back.

Power of its engines? Well they seem to have trouble overtaking the E-D so I'll go with something in scale with that (give or take an order of magnitude).

A Borg Vessel possably cold go as fast as an ISD because the Transwarp Technology allows a vessel to reach any speed. Every Cannon ST book about Transwarp states this.
Really the only ST books that are cannon have no mention of Borg as far as I recall (hint Mosiac takes place BEFORE the borg).

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD. Perhaps a ISD could destroy a couple Borg vessels, but in the End they will adapt. And 200 Borg Ships, each one that dwarfs a ISD could charge in and destroy any Imperial Fleet.
adapt to what? large intense amount of EM radiation?

any chance this is a masquerading mod again?

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-11-04 08:21pm

Sovereign wrote:Does anyone know how big a Borg Cube is, or how many weapons it has, or how powerful its engines are? No, I didnt think so!

A Borg Vessel possably cold go as fast as an ISD because the Transwarp Technology allows a vessel to reach any speed. Every Cannon ST book about Transwarp states this.

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD. Perhaps a ISD could destroy a couple Borg vessels, but in the End they will adapt. And 200 Borg Ships, each one that dwarfs a ISD could charge in and destroy any Imperial Fleet.

WRONG dipshit, the borg cube may be larger than an ISD but it's max figures for shielding is 3 gigaton, compared to the what was it? 50 200 gigaton weaponry dotting the ISD that can fire on their own and in rapid succession. A GCS high end calcs on shielding it 500 megaton, and can take several direct hits from a borg cube, while Bean just calced the ISD's shieds at 40 teratons. Lets say borg weaponry does twice the damage of a quantum torp, 256 megatons, and fires one a second(kinda fast for a cube, which always fires one at a time, even against multiple targets).

That puts ISD sheilding at about 40000000000 megatons, divide that by 256, it would take one borg cube 156,250,000 seconds, or almost 5 years if I calced correctly(probly not). While it would take about a second for an ISD to frag a borg cube with about 67 times more force then is needed. And thats just the shielding, SW cap ships armor can take kiloton range weaponry(ROTJ novelization if I remember correctly).

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-11-04 08:25pm

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD.

nice target practice, as the shape of the cube presents a VERY large target for even the heaviest of the ISD's guns

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-11-04 08:25pm

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD.

nice target practice, as the shape of the cube presents a VERY large target for even the heaviest of the ISD's guns

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-04 08:29pm

Sovereign wrote:Does anyone know how big a Borg Cube is, or how many weapons it has, or how powerful its engines are? No, I didnt think so!

About 3 km wide but it is NOT a solid structure like ISDs are. Instead it looks like a jumble of ductwork.

While a cube certainly has multiple weapons, based on "First Contact" and "Scorpion" they only seem to fire one at a time.

A Borg Vessel possably cold go as fast as an ISD because the Transwarp Technology allows a vessel to reach any speed. Every Cannon ST book about Transwarp states this.

1) PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE provide a quote ANYWHERE that says cubes have infinite speed.
2) According to the TNG TM, Fed sensors travel at 200,000c. Borg cubes can be detected with those sensors. Therefore, cubes must be SLOWER than 200,000c
3) The cube in Best of Both Worlds took MONTHS to reach the Alpha quadrant. SW ships would have made the journey in days, if not hours.
4) There are no canon Trek books. The TMs have been denounced as pure speculation by their own publishers.

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD. Perhaps a ISD could destroy a couple Borg vessels, but in the End they will adapt.

Adaptation is NOT infinite. The cube in First Contact was NOT immune to massed fire from a small Fed Fleet. They NEVER adapted to attacks from S8472, even after losing over 400 cubes. And the debris from the planet destroyed by S8472 took two cubes with it and damaged a third.

And 200 Borg Ships, each one that dwarfs a ISD could charge in and destroy any Imperial Fleet.

Do you have any idea how large the Imperial fleet is? 25,000 ISD alone, NOT counting the large variety of other ships seen in the movies and EU. Besides, what makes you think the borg would send 200 ships when they have repeatedly sent only one against the Feds?

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-11-04 08:31pm

damm sorry for the double post