Montreal School Refuses Prayer Rooms For Muslims

[salm]

Could do what my school did, if you have a group like this you just found a room at lunchtime when there were no classes.

No one minded as long as everything was set as it was.

my point is a different one. why shouldn´t an institution like a school give access to rooms for groups (be it religious or not) which are not used otherwise?
it´t not like the room would get worn down to a signifcant degree.

That's kind of what I meant, I was just providing an example of it working.

oh, i thought you meant that it was tolerated but not actually allowed in your case.

[Gandalf]

oh, i thought you meant that it was tolerated but not actually allowed in your case.

It was allowed, sort of encouraged, but so were any other groups. They even got space for announcements in the assemblies.

[sketerpot]

Indeed so- except that since in the US (or West in general), Christianity is the "dominant culture", they get little sympathy from the well-meaning but soft-hearted. But because Islam is typically asociated with non-Whites, they get an extra pass by playing the whit racial guilt card.

In the US, a lot of Christians like to think that they're being persecuted by the evil secular conspiracy. They talk about the media (such as MTV) and how they're hostile toward Christianity, and how the government is trying to force atheistic beliefs on them with separation of church and state, and banning the Bible, and making it illegal to pray. Some of the crazier of these people write rants like this:

In careful consideration of the changing spiritual and cultural values in America today, it is not by accident that all aspects of our private and national life are rapidly being altered to reflect a more secular mentality while diminishing the influence of Christian principles and practices. This is being done in spite of the blatant fact of the strong influence of Christianity in the establishment of our nation. The present-day liberal-minded, self-proclaimed statist elite defies even the irrefutable facts of history in their vicious campaign to make a final separation between God and State.

Frighteningly, many moderate Christians have similar views---they just don't write polemics about it, or think about it as much.

[Coyote]

A lot of Christians in the US have no idea just how much influence they really have in the US political scene. And unfortunately it is not the moderates but the fundy types-- I believe public pronoucements of faith and religious expressions in political candidates in Europe are rare, are they not?

Here, you get nowehere without admitting some belief in a higher power.

I mean, I believe in God and all that but shit, keep it at home or in your own thoughts. It's not for public display- or enforcing public will.

[Aaron]

A lot of Christians in the US have no idea just how much influence they really have in the US political scene. And unfortunately it is not the moderates but the fundy types-- I believe public pronoucements of faith and religious expressions in political candidates in Europe are rare, are they not?

It's not just Europe. It's quite rare in Canada as well. Although with the rise of the PC's in politics it's becoming more common.

[Next of Kin]

my point is a different one. why shouldn´t an institution like a school give access to rooms for groups (be it religious or not) which are not used otherwise?
it´t not like the room would get worn down to a signifcant degree.

No one is suggesting the room would get worn down. In the article, the school's administration mentioned that they are a "...secular institution and our mission doesn't include religion. It's education and research..." Why should they offer rooms for any religious groups when that is not in their mission?

[Skelron]

Next of Kin because the University of Ryerson does not only deal with Education and research, it also acts to make the Students feel at home, and entertained, I remember the websites for when I was hunting for a university and like them Ryerson's followed a similar pattern, a lot of the attention is not focused on the Educational aspect of the place, but on the social aspect.

Not only that but there is something else to think about... I'll Bold it below...
Ryerson

Downtown.


Located in downtown Toronto, Ryerson offers a decidedly hip, urban, centre-of-it-all lifestyle.

Professional sports venues, shops, restaurants, street festivals, loads of night life, and cultural events are at our doorstep.

Major industry centres - including those for health, finance, business, entertainment, fashion, hospitality, retail, and design - are steps away. This access translates into to amazing work-study and networking opportunities.

On Campus.


A vibrant on-campus culture provides tons of student-focused facilities, events, and activities geared to students.

There are orientation week activities, more than 60 student-run groups, a students' administrative council, a campus newspaper and radio station, a brand new student centre, cafeterias, student lounges, a fitness centre, and intramural and varsity sports teams.

For those living away from home there are co-ed residences and a housing registry for off-campus rentals.

Diversity.


Multiculturalism - it sets Ryerson apart.

Ryerson's campus - our students, faculty, and staff - reflect Toronto's incredible cosmopolitan mix. The University fosters this valued asset, one that contributes tremendously to an environment of learning.

There are more than 25 cultural associations, as well as events held throughout the year, that celebrate the various ethnicities, traditions, religions, orientations, and customs found in our community.

Yep every year the university holds events dedicated to celebrating the religious organisations found within it's community... perhaps more importently they view themselves as a community which of course would also lead to making the members of said community feel at home and welcome.

((I'll check the other one shortly))

[Darth Wong]

Yep every year the university holds events dedicated to celebrating the religious organisations found within it's community... perhaps more importently they view themselves as a community which of course would also lead to making the members of said community feel at home and welcome.

There's a difference between saying you celebrate cultural diversity and saying that you should be obligated to provide special prayer rooms for Muslims or that members of any religion should be able to force the school to make allowances for their beliefs.

[Skelron]

There's a difference between saying you celebrate cultural diversity and saying that you should be obligated to provide special prayer rooms for Muslims or that members of any religion should be able to force the school to make allowances for their beliefs.

agreed, the problem is this shouldn't even have risen as an issue, again, I don't see it as being the hardest thing in the world for the university to make allowances for the needs of students, by placing aside a room, even if the room has to move every day. (To fit around existing timetables.) It just seems a unneccersary argument and hardly a case for claiming that the university's status as a secular organisation would be under threat if it made such an allowance...

Really I'd like to have explained how it places the status as Secular underthreat to take an empty room and say to Students, 'you can gather here to pray....'

[Skelron]

Bah as for why I put that section from the university's homepage, it was mostly to make the point that the claim that it's mission is only to provide Education and research is false, it also trys to make the students lives easier. It provides entertainment etc, it trys to provide more than just education in short, and to form a community...

[General Zod]

Really I'd like to have explained how it places the status as Secular underthreat to take an empty room and say to Students, 'you can gather here to pray....'

telling students they're allowed to use empty rooms for their own private uses on break or lunch or whatever while on their own time is one thing. Actively going out of their way to provide special rooms for prayer to accomodate the students on the school's time is something completely separate, which iirc is what the muslim students in the article wanted.

[Batman]

Bah as for why I put that section from the university's homepage, it was mostly to make the point that the claim that it's mission is only to provide Education and research is false, it also trys to make the students lives easier. It provides entertainment etc, it trys to provide more than just education in short, and to form a community...

And that's great of them. Does, however, in no way adress the point of why they should be required to provide prayer rooms for anybody. It's mission is to provide education and research. they do, on top of that, try to make student's lifes easier because that in turn makes it easier for them to fulfill their mission. However, doing so is not part of their mission. If they feel like providing prayer rooms, fine. I can't recall anybody saying the university shouldn't. However, if they don't feel like it, the Muslims have no business complaining, because the school does NOT have an obligation to provide those rooms.

[Skelron]

And that's great of them. Does, however, in no way adress the point of why they should be required to provide prayer rooms for anybody. It's mission is to provide education and research. they do, on top of that, try to make student's lifes easier because that in turn makes it easier for them to fulfill their mission. However, doing so is not part of their mission. If they feel like providing prayer rooms, fine. I can't recall anybody saying the university shouldn't. However, if they don't feel like it, the Muslims have no business complaining, because the school does NOT have an obligation to provide those rooms.

and yet the question returns to why they felt they should deny them. It's not so much do they have to... but why didn't they. The second instituation mentioned a lack of free space which might be legit. (Lets assume here that Labs and places with sensitive equipment etc are out of limits in this regards.... I certainly wouldn't argue that they should be accomadated in a Lab)

If it is then a lack of space why doisn't for example Ryeron come right out and say it...

The problem is when it seems an arbitary 'No' for reasons of staying Secular... If a better reason was provided such as 'we don't have a suitable space avaible at the times needed... and as a secular instituation we are under no obligation to make such space avaible at the expense of other students' It becomes a little more reasonable...

when you get a Blanket no because we are a Secular instituation... Well it seems A.) Petty and B.) Could be used as a reasonable grounds in a Court case...

[General Zod]

when you get a Blanket no because we are a Secular instituation... Well it seems A.) Petty and B.) Could be used as a reasonable grounds in a Court case...

reasonable grounds for a court case my ass. Should a municipal building in the city set aside a special prayer room for its employees so they can practice their religious beliefs on the job? nope, because it's a secular institution, and they're not obligated to do so in any fashion whatsoever. It's no different with a school choosing to deny special facilities for religious practice due to being a secular institution.

[Batman]

The problem is when it seems an arbitary 'No' for reasons of staying Secular..

A secular educational institution saying No to stay secular is not being 'arbitrary', it's staying within it's defined mission of providing secular education . Them saying no to only select religious parties would be arbitrary. Unless you have evidence that anybody else got rooms for prayer the decision was completely legit.

[Skelron]

reasonable grounds for a court case my ass. Should a municipal building in the city set aside a special prayer room for its employees so they can practice their religious beliefs on the job? nope, because it's a secular institution, and they're not obligated to do so in any fashion whatsoever. It's no different with a school choosing to deny special facilities for religious practice due to being a secular institution.

Again however you have to ask, at what cost to the organisation... if it is at no cost... Then you have to wonder why? I agree through tha I badly worded my above statement... I don't honestly think it should be a Court case.... However it can be used as evidence I feel in the court Case. (Sort of if your claiming hay is this fair... Then it appears unfair.)

Also you say Special Facilities... what a room which will have the desks stacked in a corner. (Which if it's anything like my own university will take about Five Minutes) Thats a special facility, I am sorry but that seems mis-repersentation of the issue. What is being asked as far as I can tell is a place for them to gather and say their prayers for Ramadan. A Place out of the way, and out of sight, a place where they can get a little privacy, a place to put there mats etc for the time it takes without having people looking and perhaps stiring...

They are not asking for a Mosque to be built, nor are they asking for the room to be permanetly marked for their use only. They are asking to rent a room that is not being used to pray. (Well the article says Hire... Likely to cover any elictrical or heating needs at the time.) Nopt really a special requirement now is it.

As it is here at Trent our societies rent rooms all the time, the fact they approached the Uni makes me think that it is likely the same at Ryerson. (although if someone wishes to prove me wrong I'll accept it) So... it is not even a special requirement... since it would be a common occurance... except for the use it will be put to... of prayer.

[Skelron]

A secular educational institution saying No to stay secular is not being 'arbitrary', it's staying within it's defined mission of providing secular education . Them saying no to only select religious parties would be arbitrary. Unless you have evidence that anybody else got rooms for prayer the decision was completely legit.

Except how does it keep them Secular... or more exactly how would saying okay have them stop being Secular? I keep hearing this it is so they can stay Secular... but I havn't yet had explained how saying yes would make them no longer secular...

[SirNitram]

A secular educational institution saying No to stay secular is not being 'arbitrary', it's staying within it's defined mission of providing secular education . Them saying no to only select religious parties would be arbitrary. Unless you have evidence that anybody else got rooms for prayer the decision was completely legit.

Except how does it keep them Secular... or more exactly how would saying okay have them stop being Secular? I keep hearing this it is so they can stay Secular... but I havn't yet had explained how saying yes would make them no longer secular...

Do you understand what being secular means, or is it just a word to you, a combination of letters?

[Batman]

Also you say Special Facilities... what a room which will have the desks stacked in a corner. (Which if it's anything like my own university will take about Five Minutes) Thats a special facility, I am sorry but that seems mis-repersentation of the issue. What is being asked as far as I can tell is a place for them to gather and say their prayers for Ramadan. A Place out of the way, and out of sight, a place where they can get a little privacy, a place to put there mats etc for the time it takes without having people looking and perhaps stiring...

A place which is, to my knowledge, NOT REQUIRED by the Quaran, and a place which would ALSO have to be provided to ANY OTHER religion that demands it, otherwise it WOULD be special (i.e. nobody else gets it).

They are not asking for a Mosque to be built, nor are they asking for the room to be permanetly marked for their use only. They are asking to rent a room that is not being used to pray. (Well the article says Hire... Likely to cover any elictrical or heating needs at the time.) Nopt really a special requirement now is it.

It is the moment the SAME privilege is NOT granted to every OTHER religion that demands it.

As it is here at Trent our societies rent rooms all the time, the fact they approached the Uni makes me think that it is likely the same at Ryerson. (although if someone wishes to prove me wrong I'll accept it) So... it is not even a special requirement... since it would be a common occurance... except for the use it will be put to... of prayer.

The problem being that UNLESS such rooms are rented to EVERY religious group that demands it this IS treating them special.

[General Zod]

Again however you have to ask, at what cost to the organisation... if it is at no cost... Then you have to wonder why? I agree through tha I badly worded my above statement... I don't honestly think it should be a Court case.... However it can be used as evidence I feel in the court Case. (Sort of if your claiming hay is this fair... Then it appears unfair.)

They're denying facilities to anyone practicing any religion, not just one specific religion. Discrimination cannot therefore be claimed.

Also you say Special Facilities... what a room which will have the desks stacked in a corner. (Which if it's anything like my own university will take about Five Minutes) Thats a special facility, I am sorry but that seems mis-repersentation of the issue. What is being asked as far as I can tell is a place for them to gather and say their prayers for Ramadan. A Place out of the way, and out of sight, a place where they can get a little privacy, a place to put there mats etc for the time it takes without having people looking and perhaps stiring...

If they want to go to a school that makes special acomodations for their beliefs they should go to a religious school. They should have known that the school didn't offer such accomodations when they signed on for it, and the purpose of a school such as this is to provide an education.

They are not asking for a Mosque to be built, nor are they asking for the room to be permanetly marked for their use only. They are asking to rent a room that is not being used to pray. (Well the article says Hire... Likely to cover any elictrical or heating needs at the time.) Nopt really a special requirement now is it.

So why should a school have to go out of its way to provide it? Muslim laws require specific attention to the time of day someone prays, afaik, and that could more than likely interefere with school schedules. They have no reason whatsoever to make such accomodations.

As it is here at Trent our societies rent rooms all the time, the fact they approached the Uni makes me think that it is likely the same at Ryerson. (although if someone wishes to prove me wrong I'll accept it) So... it is not even a special requirement... since it would be a common occurance... except for the use it will be put to... of prayer.

good for them. but a school is completely within their rights to deny such a room. they aren't required to provide it whatsoever.

[Skelron]

So Nitram are you saying that for example the Trent Union is no longer secular after all it makes allowances for the following societies. (Helps them organise in the Fresher's Booklet advertisers them, they are a society for members of the Union to join)

The Hindu society, The Islamic Society, the Christian Society, the Catholic society... (These are just off the Top of my head) The Christian Society was able to quite happily book the Unions downstairs Bar every Month one year. (My First year Flat mate was a member, and used to try and get us to go down, I went a few times, mostly for the free food, and because it was a chance to anoy them. The majority of them where Fundies, (Which I guess is the reason for the Catholic Society) Nothing is more anoying to a Fundy in many ways than a Liberal Christian )

and yet the University is quite happily a Secular University as is the Union... why because it does not favour any, but it does not have to go out of it's way to stand in the way of the various religious groups, nor to make things hard for them...

To be secular does not mean you have to say no to every religious need of your students, especially if it is not going to cost you anything... or am I wrong here... Can you point me to a place where the nature of Securalism is defined as a Blanket No... or how this request is something that would threaten the status of secular, where the needs of a few students be met simply because they are needs that they have.

I suppose it might be a matter of perspective I simply see this as meeting their own particular needs, ou seem to be implying it is some thin end of the wedge.... So again tell me, a room not being used, is rented by the students, to meet a need, the need happens to be religious in nature, but that need is not being forced on anyone else. They are not dragging people in and saying PRAY. They are simply asking for a place to gather.

[SirNitram]

So Nitram are you saying that for example the Trent Union is no longer secular after all it makes allowances for the following societies. (Helps them organise in the Fresher's Booklet advertisers them, they are a society for members of the Union to join)

No, you flaming retard. I asked if you actually understood what it means to be secular. Why don't you stop strawmanning like crazy? It might help you, if you actually had a viable point. Secular institutions have zero requirements to respect any requests based on religion. Giving a religion a room to themselves is pandering to that group, not 'respecting all equally'. But hey, feel free to continue bullshitting heartily like it makes you reasonable.

[Skelron]

A place which is, to my knowledge, NOT REQUIRED by the Quaran, and a place which would ALSO have to be provided to ANY OTHER religion that demands it, otherwise it WOULD be special (i.e. nobody else gets it).

Firstly the matter of it not being required by the Quoron, no your right it's not... So what, let me ask you, if they might not perhaps feel a little self concious, getting down and praying? surronded by strangers, maybe it's just a little less self concious to go to a room out of the way, where you are not getting in peoples way and then praying...

As for any other religion that asked... if it was a similar situation. (as in they are called upon to pray at that time.) and if the room was avaible then why not? Is it really that hard a request to fulfil, is it really something that MUST be refused... is it something that will radically alter the universities existence?

Hardly, lets be honest a group of people hire an unused room for a say 1/2 an hour and then leave it... WOW I guess the university is in trouble...

The problem being that UNLESS such rooms are rented to EVERY religious group that demands it this IS treating them special.

See above... simply put, this is a very spurious argument as it would suggest that it is going to explode into a Major problem when it's not, unused empty rooms hired by students for peaceul gathering is not the end of the universities ability to function.

[Skelron]

No, you flaming retard. I asked if you actually understood what it means to be secular. Why don't you stop strawmanning like crazy? It might help you, if you actually had a viable point. Secular institutions have zero requirements to respect any requests based on religion. Giving a religion a room to themselves is pandering to that group, not 'respecting all equally'. But hey, feel free to continue bullshitting heartily like it makes you reasonable.

Ahh of course you therefore seem to miss my point... did I say they should respect it based on Religion... No I said accepting this request would not threaten it's status as a Secular Institution...

A Subtle differance, I agree, I have been saying that this is not something that is that huge, I have been saying that therefore the argument that it is a Seular insitiution is not enough on it's own. The Argument of it being a Secular istituion can be taken along with a lack of space etc. Otherwise it should revert to a policy it might apply elsewhere, of for example allowing Students to hire rooms, something quie common in universities, and something that I suspect, but cannot of course say with all certainly, occurs within the instituition in question..

In short... The fact that they wish it to be used for a religious need should be ignored has been my argument, your and others argument seems to be the fact that it is a religious use they wish to put it too means that accepting it would place the status as Secular underthreat...


so far I have seen no reason given by Ruerson other than they are a Secular institution... Should another reason be presented then you might have a case.... Otherwise... My argument has been being Secular is not enough, since the use the students wish to put it too should not be a major issue.

[SirNitram]

No, you flaming retard. I asked if you actually understood what it means to be secular. Why don't you stop strawmanning like crazy? It might help you, if you actually had a viable point. Secular institutions have zero requirements to respect any requests based on religion. Giving a religion a room to themselves is pandering to that group, not 'respecting all equally'. But hey, feel free to continue bullshitting heartily like it makes you reasonable.

Ahh of course you therefore seem to miss my point... did I say they should respect it based on Religion... No I said accepting this request would not threaten it's status as a Secular Institution...

Whoop de shit. I(And they) care why, retard?

A Subtle differance, I agree, I have been saying that this is not something that is that huge, I have been saying that therefore the argument that it is a Seular insitiution is not enough on it's own. The Argument of it being a Secular istituion can be taken along with a lack of space etc. Otherwise it should revert to a policy it might apply elsewhere, of for example allowing Students to hire rooms, something quie common in universities, and something that I suspect, but cannot of course say with all certainly, occurs within the instituition in question..

And this has fuck all to do with anything? The school has the right to reject religious based requests out of hand, especially when only one religion is requesting it, you sad excuse for a pile of cum.

In short... The fact that they wish it to be used for a religious need should be ignored has been my argument, your and others argument seems to be the fact that it is a religious use they wish to put it too means that accepting it would place the status as Secular underthreat...

No, you pathetic moron. It means that it can be ignored, and as it would grant special priveledges to one religious group over others, should be thrown out. But you can't understand any of this, so you just employ strawmen.

so far I have seen no reason given by Ruerson other than they are a Secular institution... Should another reason be presented then you might have a case.... Otherwise... My argument has been being Secular is not enough, since the use the students wish to put it too should not be a major issue.

Only because you don't actually understand the word and it's meaning. You're a moron. Stop knocking overstrawmen and actually debate.