Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate

[Darth Servo]

How about These

<snips long post about characteristics of blasters>

What about it? It says NOTHING about turbolaser POWER and POWER is what really matters here.

[Darth Servo]

damm sorry for the double post

I know, it happens to me all the time. I wish the 'delete post' option was on these threads. I don't want to call a mod everytime I double post.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Whoops, didn't see the 200 cubes taking a fleet thing. Lets move this down to 200 cubes vs. one ISD.

Back to the 40,000,000 megaton shield figure(sorry added another magnitude to the older one) and 200 cubes firing 1 256 megaton missile a second. Thats 51,200 megatons a second. Thats 781.25 seconds to take down 1 ISD, or 13 minutes about. Lets say the ISD fires only it's medium turbolasers, and only 30 can fire at the cubes, and the guns fire once a second. That means it takes 6 seconds to take down that borg fleet, or 307,200 megatons of damage(if the dead borg ships happen to fire after their scrap) or .768% of their shields. Again, I probly did some bad math in their.

[Master of Ossus]

Does anyone know how big a Borg Cube is, or how many weapons it has, or how powerful its engines are? No, I didnt think so!

A Borg Vessel possably cold go as fast as an ISD because the Transwarp Technology allows a vessel to reach any speed. Every Cannon ST book about Transwarp states this.

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD. Perhaps a ISD could destroy a couple Borg vessels, but in the End they will adapt. And 200 Borg Ships, each one that dwarfs a ISD could charge in and destroy any Imperial Fleet.

A Borg cube is three kilometers by three kilometers by three kilometers. It's a largely hollow cube. Its exact weapons capabilities are unknown, but they clearly do not threaten ISD's. Remember that Borg cubes can be overwhelmed by large groups of SF ships, which would be virtually insignificant against an ISD. Further, the Borg cube in ST:FC was observed firing several weapons, none of which demonstrated firepower great enough to pose a serious danger to large Imperial warships, except in very large numbers. Borg cubes are very fast when in transwarp conduits, however most evidence suggests that such conduits require considerable time to set up. Outside of transwarp, Borg cubes can travel at least warp 9.99, which is considerably faster than all other observed ST speeds, with the possible exception of isolated incidents in TOS, in which god-like beings accelerated the Enterprise beyond its normal speeds, ST:VOY's crumby episode involving the Warp 10 barrier, and the possible exception of "All Good Things...", in which an obviously re-vamped warp scale placed a modified Enterprise-D at a speed of Warp 13.

The most irritating paragraph of your post, to me at least, is the final paragraph in which you state that two hundred Borg cubes could destroy "any Imperial Fleet," presumably in a direct attack. I am not quite sure you realize that the Empire has more than 20,000 Imperator class Star Destroyers, or that the Borg's ability to adapt may be finite. Remember that the Borg have had limitations to their adaptation SHOWN on the television shows. The Borg were not capable of adapting to Species-8472, and the allegedly infinitely adaptable Borg drones have repeatedly been injured by punches or similar weapons. Remember that the Borg ability to adapt is limited by their current technology, and they cannot magically gain technology merely by being destroyed. In a recent discussion I had with various other board members regarding the Borg's ability to adapt to pure energy weapons, we determined that a better term for Borg "adaptation" might instead be "optimization." The Borg are clearly capable of optimizing their defenses and weapons to deal with specific threats, but this ability is limited by their maximum total offensive and defensive outputs. The Borg may be able to make their weapons and shields more efficient against specific targets, but they cannot suddenly increase their offensive and defensive outputs exponentially. They are still limited by the technology that they possess, as (for that matter) are all civilizations both within science fiction and outside of it. Thus, even with considerable time to optimize their weapons and defenses against Imperial ships, it is highly likely that the Borg would eventually become more effective, but still be overwhelmed by superior Imperial firepower and numbers.

I also find it laughable that you continuously stated that a Borg Cube is larger and therefore more powerful than an Imperator class ship. A Cube is larger, but much of its volume is hollow and its technology is comparably very poor. A good real-life example of this would involve a Boeing-747 and the F-22 Raptor. Both are excellent aircraft. The Boeing is much larger, but would clearly be outmatched if it were ever to go into combat against an F-22.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Lets take some more figures. A bad ST quote about the numbers of ships the borg have(and lets say they are all cubes) and set it at 1 million, and the known figure of 25000 ISD. Thats about 40 cubes per ISD, lets say they all start out in firing range of each other, and that only 30 of the 50 MTL can fire on them, almost 1.25 seconds later the battle is over.

[Darth Servo]

almost 1.25 seconds later the battle is over.

That long?

[Anarchist Bunny]

almost 1.25 seconds later the battle is over.

That long?

Yeah, and the ISDs all take 20,480 Megatons of damage, IF the cubes get a second shot off in that .25 seconds and all the ones destroyed still fire until they are all dead, or .0512% of their shielding.

[starfury]

I just the tall, flat vertical surface of a borg cube represents a really good target for imperial gunners to shoot at, unlike the more narrow wedge of the ISD, how can they miss something that big and BULKy, god even EF omega-class ships don't so big of a target from all sides.

[starfury]

thought should before the tall, and present after don't, before so, sorry really hasty typing.

[Darth Servo]

thought should before the tall, and present after don't, before so, sorry really hasty typing.

Sounds like someone needs to get some sleep.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Hell more fun, lets say those 1 million cubes also discover they can fire more than one torp a second, in fact they can fire 50 a second. In the 1.25 seconds is takes to shoot them all down, they get off two shots a piece, and dead ships fire after death til they're all gone, thats 1,024,000 Megaton to each ship, or 2.56% of their shielding. I think I may have fucked up somewhere in my calcs though.

[Darth Servo]

Yeah, and the ISDs all take 20,480 Megatons of damage, IF the cubes get a second shot off in that .25 seconds and all the ones destroyed still fire until they are all dead, or .0512% of their shielding.

Wait, you forgot to add in the time it takes the borg to give their "resistance is futile" speech and the Imperials to stop laughing. Or is that pre-battle?

[Anarchist Bunny]

Hey, I wonder what bullshit he'll come up against my calcs, thats impossible fire level(User099ish), the quote said millions(John Clark style nitpick), or 200 borg cubes could take any wars fleet(DarkStar debating style)

[Ghost Rider]

I believe pre-battle...sorry I can just see a poor ensign laughing so hard, that he's dying of some bit of food down the wrong hole...and this inciting the Captain to hunt these bastards down.

[Master of Ossus]

The real problem with the Borg cube's design is that it prevents the ship from concentrating its firepower on a single target. Compare that with the wedge shaped ISD, which allows nearly all of its weapons to concentrate on a forward arc.

[Darth Servo]

Hey, I wonder what bullshit he'll come up against my calcs, thats impossible fire level(User099ish), the quote said millions(John Clark style nitpick), or 200 borg cubes could take any wars fleet(DarkStar debating style)

He'll just quote more official material that proves nothing relevant to the current topic, followed by the Darkstar template.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Yeah, and the ISDs all take 20,480 Megatons of damage, IF the cubes get a second shot off in that .25 seconds and all the ones destroyed still fire until they are all dead, or .0512% of their shielding.

Wait, you forgot to add in the time it takes the borg to give their "resistance is futile" speech and the Imperials to stop laughing. Or is that pre-battle?

I'll say it take about the length of the borg speech to annoy the captain enough to tell his gunners to shut them up.

[Darth Servo]

The real problem with the Borg cube's design is that it prevents the ship from concentrating its firepower on a single target. Compare that with the wedge shaped ISD, which allows nearly all of its weapons to concentrate on a forward arc.

Well, if the ship attacking the cube were really nice to the borg and approached it from one of the cube vertices the cube could fire from three sides at a time.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Oh and as a correction to my orginal calcs, it would take a borg cube firing one 256 megaton torp a second about 1.8 days to take out the shields of a ISD.

[Ender]

How about These

"Turbolasers" are the term used for heavy non-solid artillery weapons utilized by the Galactic Empire. Despite the somewhat misleading name, turbolaser technology actually has little to do with lasers. The technology applied in turbolasers spans many different classes of beam weapons from the heavy cannons aboard Star Destroyers, to the common blaster rifle.



The heart and lifeblood of turbolaser technology is an exotic gas known as Tibanna. It is a naturally occurring compound usually forged in the deeper layers of some gas giants. Unrefined Tibanna is gaseous at temperatures above 144.32 Kelvin and solidifies at approximately 2.35 Kelvin, but no sample of Tibanna has ever been cooled below 10 Kelvin. It is theorized that a pure and refined sample of Tibanna would begin to crystallize at temperature extremes below 5.92 Kelvin, but this has not been proven.

Elemental gases such as pure argon or hydrogen only absorb light energy at 26% or 32% efficiency, respectively, and most gaseous compounds do not absorb at efficiencies exceeding 5%. However, Tibanna's basic molecular shape allows it to absorb photon energy at approximately 52.5% efficiency, an unprecedented amount in energy-particle interaction. Refined Tibanna, that is, Tibanna which has been naturally forged and irradiated in the pressure currents found in the middle-layers of a gas giant, will absorb photons at 79.6% efficiency, making it ideal for use as an energy-delivery system.
Raw Tibanna forms under the exceedingly strong gravity pressures found in the heart of some gas giants as a "branch" of a larger, heavier molecule composed primarily of nickel and iron. Heavy Oxygen, usually O18 isotopes bond with a group of molecules at the base of the Tibanna sprout, and allow it to break free of the larger molecule. This form of raw Tibanna will gradually rise toward the middle layers, where it comes in contact with a thin neutron belt. These neutrons are usually free-floating subatomic particles condensed in a layer less than 1.0x10^(-12) inches thick, released from the violent collision of heavier metal atoms in the layers below. These free-floating neutrons spin in immense vortex's at speeds nearing .05% of c.
The hydrogen atoms of the Tibanna molecule collide with these free neutrons, creating Deuterium and Tritium isotopes. Most often, these Tibanna molecules are destroyed by the collision, and dissipate either into smaller gas molecules, or some of the atoms are hit so hard they transmutate into heavier elements and pull the molecule back toward the heart of the gas giant.
However, a small amount (less than 1%) of the raw Tibanna retains atomic cohesion and gains one atom of deuterium and three atoms of tritium, while losing one carbon and one nitrogen atom. This process is known as spin-stabilization, and produces refined Tibanna. Experimentation with artificial spin-stabilization techniques (Left) consistently produce inferior results, thus naturally spin-stabilized Tibanna gas is highly prized.

Compared with advanced space weaponry, traditional lasers are neither reliable, efficient, or particularly effective against anything except a target of known composition. Photons can carry a great amount of energy and travel at un-anticipateable speeds, but behave in a widely varying amount of ways depending on the type of matter they come in contact with. The most amusing example of this comes from space battles of millennia past, where it was said that the Old Republic's laser weaponry actually reflected off of an enemy vessel's hull and hit the ship it originated from. Other, less embarrassing failures happened when lasers would simply pass through an enemy ship, like glass, without causing any damage, or would simply heat up parts of an enemy hull before the cold of space quickly prevented any serious ill effects.

Particles with a discernable mass, however, like protons, neutrons, and electrons, are not nearly so fickle; the range of damage that these types of energy-carriers cause is much more predictable, but comes at the price of efficiency. Photons are 100% efficient energy carriers, a claim that no other known particle or substance can make. Imperial turbolaser technology takes advantage of this by using intense focused lasers to energize compact pockets of Tibanna (Below left) until the weak molecular bonds of the gas break down at 4,000 Kelvin. Once that occurs, a second beam of photons is introduced that excites the free molecules to over 10,000 Kelvin, at which time the electrons on the individual atoms break away and the gas becomes plasma.



These pockets of plasma are retained in a small magnetic bottle at the base of the turbolaser barrel (Above middle and above left), until the moment the weapon discharges. When it does, the magnetic seal at the mouth of the containment chamber is released, and a ring pulse guides and accelerates the excited atoms along the barrel and out of the apparatus (Below left). The visible effect is a condensed bolt of green glowing plasma (Below right), directed at high velocities (anywhere up to .25c) toward a target. Less refined or impure Tibanna will yield different color bolts ranging anywhere from red to blue to green.

As the plasma bolt travels through space, it is accompanied by a beam of invisible electrons that propagate along the bolt's desired trajectory at the speed of light. These electrons are generated at the mouth of the turret and "spin" around the path of the plasma bolt, creating an electromagnetic tube which helps to focus the packet and keep it from dispersing over long distances. Without this "electron jacket," the turbolaser bolt quickly dissipates into harmless gas, and it is this jacket which ray shielding works to counteract. Often, when a turbolaser impacts a vessel, it is this electromagnetic field which exerts a sizeable force on a target, resulting in a distinct impact sensation compared to a physical collision.



Blasters operate on a similar principle to turbolasers, but only heat up the Tibanna to 4,500 Kelvin using a power cell instead of a laser; higher temperatures would be harder to control and require a larger magnetic shielding apparatus.

Because of the nature of turbolaser weapons, tremendous amounts of excess heat are often generated and require cryosystems for cooling purposes. Failure of these systems can cause an emplacement to quickly overheat and explode. A diagram of a typical turbolaser emplacement can be seen at the left.
This configuration can vary widely between different manufacturers and classes of emplacements. Light turbolasers typically sport no armor plating, and an integrated fire control system at the base of the turret. Other emplacements may be totally computerized, but this is uncommon.


As far as StarFleet captains were concerned, what turbolasers lacked in accuracy, they more than made up for in brute power. These plasma weapons, among the most common artillery used within the Galactic Empire, are capable of concentrating high amounts of energy across a relatively small area, making it difficult for starship shields to appropriately compensate. As turbolaser bolts impacted the shields of Federation starships, they would put a large strain on one or two of the vessel's shield generators, often causing local power overloads; drilling holes in the vessel's shield bubble.

I see, and where did you lift this witout giving any credit whatsoever from?

[Ender]

Does anyone know how big a Borg Cube is, or how many weapons it has, or how powerful its engines are? No, I didnt think so!

We do know, it issimple irrelevent.

A Borg Vessel possably cold go as fast as an ISD because the Transwarp Technology allows a vessel to reach any speed. Every Cannon ST book about Transwarp states this.

Books ae noncanon, and transwarp is based alng prelaid rutes from static points.

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD. Perhaps a ISD could destroy a couple Borg vessels, but in the End they will adapt.

You cannot adapt to raw power

And 200 Borg Ships, each one that dwarfs a ISD could charge in and destroy any Imperial Fleet.

I posted this back on page 5

"And here is an interesting thing for you:
Take the volume of a borg cube, and assume 90% hollow (95% is the standard I've seen used, but lets go high end here). Now for simplicity, convert it to the volume of a sphere and find the diameter. Plug itinto the asteroid calculator and look at the value of iron (Iron being the basic standard used) for vaporization. Now add on 2.2 GT (What warsies rate borg shields at, which is incidetly higher then what GK rates them at).

You get 40.8GT.
A single LTL is 50GT.
That is right, a Siener partol ship can vaporize a cube with a single shot. And most outerrim systems have a few of those things, or more powerful craft, for basic customs work.

The borg are fucked."
An ISD would tear through said borg fleet like a starved wolverine against a veal steak.[/url]

[Ender]

You people are really somthing. You are quick to counter act everything I say, and continue to ask for numbers, but you fail to show me anything important.

We did, you ignored them

All I hear is, "Your a fucking moron, and shut the fuck up!"

Yes, that is our general response to willful ignorance

Come on show me somthing important. Besides do numbers really mean anything. You are judging Numbers to Technology that doesnt even exist!

Wow, old copout.
[quote[ I am trying to do everything with common sence, and all you want to do is flame and count no existant numbers. Start Quoting text from cannon books, and showing pictures from movies, because those are the only true cannon, not some numbers a smart made up on his spare time.[/quote]
Am I the only one here who likes how he uses "a smart" as an insult, attempting to convey tht if you are intellegent, you are not worth his while?

I will continue this debate for the hell of it, if you dont like it, I dont know what to tell ya.

So you admit to trolling. Thanks, makes it much easier for the mods to ban you now.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Does anyone know how big a Borg Cube is, or how many weapons it has, or how powerful its engines are? No, I didnt think so!

Does anyone know? Well, how about you? Oh, you don't know it either, do you?

A Borg Vessel possably cold go as fast as an ISD because the Transwarp Technology allows a vessel to reach any speed. Every Cannon ST book about Transwarp states this.

Another blah-blah vague statement, "possably cold go as fast as an ISD..." blah-blah. Show us the speed of Transwarp. Give us an episode as evidence. Compare it with hyperdrive speed. Well, can you?

A single Battleship Cube would dwarf over a Normal ISD. Perhaps a ISD could destroy a couple Borg vessels, but in the End they will adapt. And 200 Borg Ships, each one that dwarfs a ISD could charge in and destroy any Imperial Fleet.

No, not another "Borg infinite adaptation" bullshit. Show a single episode where the Borg can adapt against raw power. Prove that 200 Borg cubes can destroy any Imperial Fleet. Dick.

[Sovereign]

BORG CUBE

Deadweight Tonnage-Metric: 9,000,000
STD Range: 150 Years at L.Y.V.
Maximum Safe Cruising Speed: Warp 9.7
Maximum Emergency Speed: Warp 9.999
Maximum TransWarp Capable Speed: Undefined
Cutting Beams: 30 Emitters
Plasma Projectors: 30 Emitters
Warp Energy Drainage Field Emitters: 1
Variable Weapon Emitters: Capable of creating
new weapon designs based
on assimilated technology
Electromagnetic Shield System: Magnitude 4
Length Overall - Meters: 3,000
Breadth Overall - Meters: 3,000
Height Overall - Meters: 3,000
Escape Pod Units: 1 Sphere
Computer Core: Collective
Hull: Collective Standard
Shields: Adaptive, Regenerative
Shield Generators: 486
Metaphasic Shielding: Yes
Planetary Landing Capability: No
Cloaking Device: No
Seperation Ability: No
Hull Armor: Collective Standard
Maximum Warp Core Output: 58,316,100 TeraWatts
Sensors: Primary, Secondary, Scientific, Long Range, Multi-spectral
Fighter Count: 0
Landing Bays: 0
High Energy Tractor Beam Emitters: 8
Subspace Radio: Interplexing
Traditional Radio: RF Tranceivers
Deuterium Tank: 1,000,500 Kg
Structural Integrity Field: Class 14
Environment: Class M/N
Personell Transporters: 250
High Volume Emergency Transporters: 0
Molecular Cargo Transporters: 50
Mass Transporters: 5
Astrometrics / Stellar Cartography Lab: No
Battle Bridge: No

[Sovereign]

TRANSWARP

Transportation device used by the Borg. The conduit is a subspace tunnel where vessels could reach speeds twenty or more times greater than the maximum speed of a Galaxy-class starship [9.6, 3,053 65c]. The conduits were activated by an encoded tachyon pulse. A Borg ship was first observed using such a device in 2369.

Reference