Is there anything in Star Trek that can threaten Star Wars?

[NecronLord]

Don't know.

But they also fixed the "Vulcan has no moon" problem as well.

But in my opinion, 2 AU is a lot more reasonable for an ojject of V'ger's size than 82 AU is.

Silence. Read my location... Its 82 I tell you....!!

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sea Skimmer:

Sorry, but you're wrong. The Thrawn Trilogy suggests that the particular fleet at Endor was brainwashed by Palpatine's Dark Side influence, no doubt because the Dark Lord wished to take some personal joy in victory, or to show off to Skywalker, or Vader, or both just how extensive his power was, that he could influence an entire fleet while manipulating them. The subsequent defeat/driving off of the remnants of the Endorian sector fleet/Death Squadron was result of the shock of being suddenly cut off from their influence by Palpatine's body's death.

You're stretching it to suggest that they were all influenced by Palpatine. He was not that powerful.

As if the hiding of the Lusankya doesn't disprove this, this quote certanly will:
========================
Pg. 49-51: .... [snip unimportant dialogue]...

Thrawn: "Then you must have wondered how a few dozen rebel ships could possibly rout an imperial force that outgunned it atleast ten to one?".

Like all quotes, they must be taken in context. Thrawn had come for three items: the cloning tech, the cloaking shield, and the Dark Side abilities of C'boath himself.

C'boath is unstable and disturbed. He is also a tremendous egotist. Thrawn is utilizing his political acumen here, exaggerating the extent of Palpatine's power and stating his fleet is inferior without it.

He then suggests that his fleet could be restored by C'boath--thereby appealing to his ego and his sense of importance. I will show further how this is the only logical conclusion.

C'baoth: "I didn't spend much time with such wonderings," C'baoth said dryly. "I assumed that the Rebels were simply better warriors."

Thrawn: "In a sense, that's true," Thrawn agreed. "The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the Fleet because the Emperor was dead."

He turned to Pellaeon. "You were there, Captain--you must have noticed it. The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficiency and discipline. The loss, in short of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit."

"There was some confusion, yes," Pellaeon said stiffly. He could see where Thrawn was going with this, and he didn't like it a bit. "But nothing that can't be explained by the normal stresses of battle."

"Really? The loss of the Executor--the sudden, last-minute TIE fighter incompetence that brought about the destruction of the Death Star itself--the loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that none of them should have any trouble with? All of that nothing but normal battle stress?
...
Thrawn: "The Emperors mind provided you with the strenght and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependant on that presence as if you were borg-implanted into a computer."
...
Thrawn: "The Emperors fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That over the long run, is what did the damage."
========================
-Heir to the Empire

One: I do not believe Palpatine was capable of directly controlling the fleets throughout the Empire a la C'boath. I think he was capable of slaving their minds together through the Force and influencing them, they certainly seemed independent in the movie.

Two: In Dark Force Rising, Palleaon directly implicates the fact that the clones represent tens of thousands in number, but their minds are subtle variations of less then half a dozen patterns (flash memory imprinting), llowing him for mass control of the Chimaera's fleet.

Three: A Sith Lord can only concentrate on several things simultaneously (C'boath, although not a Sith, lost his concentration multi-tasking while battling Skywalker and company in the Last Command). Palpatine could observe and manipulate battles from afar, but his power was obviously not universal over everything at once: we know from other official sources that his rule was not absolute and he needed Dark Side Adepts to act as his proxies in his next phase of galactic domination. Moreover, Lord Vader lacked these skills more or less and the original Essential Guide to Characters suggests he was at Palpatine's stength by the time of Endor.

Four: You don't know how the Lusankya was buried. They never say. Using one line of speculation by an in-universe character is not a trump card, sorry.

Five: I do accept Palpatine was in significant Dark Side influenceand control over the Battle of Endor, likely for personal amusment or whatnot since it hardly needed him to win. The shock of losing that seems to helped the Rebels rout the Imperial fleet.

Six: This is simply dialogue by a non-Force User in the Unknown Regions at the time of this occurance and likely has little if any true knowledge of the Force. His dialogue is speculation which is questionable on the grounds it serves immediate political needs with C'boath, and C'boath's demonstration of said powers later depended on the likeness of all the minds of the clones for such mass-manipulation. There is no evidence outside of Thrawn's questionable quote being used to put Pelleaon in his place and recruit C'boath by petting his ego. Thrawn was falliable and being used by Palpatine at this period as he speaks (source: Dark Empire Sourcebook). He is not the arbiter of ultimate authority here despite his fan popularity and uber characteristics endowed to him by his creator and self-appointed king of NR-era EU literature, Tim Zahn. While I like the character, his views, despite his genius, amount to basically a throw-away line that becomes neccessary to view as hyperbole in light of other statements by the 3rd person omniscient perspective that suggest Palpatine's power was not anywhere as omnipotent.

Seven: I do believe Palpatine can mass-control groups of people, I do not feel he could do this over the entire Empire for aforementioned reasons. The stated reason in the Chronology and in the New Essential Guide to Characters and in the Dark Empire Sourcebook was that it was inferior political design of the Empire itself--that it could not survive without Palpatine, that led to Imperial decline after his supposed death at Endor, NOT the absence of mass-control through the Dark Side by Palpatine. Thrawn's quote above is the only said evidence. Third person omnisicent non-dialogue is more important then the said opinion of a brilliantly manipulative non-Force User across the galaxy at the time.

Concession Accepted.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

The only thing that can be a big threat to the Empire is a corny Federation plot device that's only used once, no matter how good it is. That and the desires of both of the Trekkies that still think the Federation can win.

[Mr Bean]

Four: You don't know how the Lusankya was buried. They never say. Using one line of speculation by an in-universe character is not a trump card, sorry.

However would Primus Kindly explain how the Millions of People there did not notice the weeks of Construction or how no one noticed the millions of people who suddenly ended up missing if he had them killed?

Or do you think one person in Millions might mention the fact they where order to leave thier homes(Over a Multi-kilometer area) go stay somewhere else for a few weeks then come back and see thier house brand spanking shiny new as it was destroyed and rebuilt to hide the Lusyanaka?

Either he had them all killed and thier care-takers killed and thier families and friends killed or he made them forget Via the force

And exuse me but even in SW 20 Million people don't just dissaper on the Captial World and no one notices

[Illuminatus Primus]

It doesn't matter Bean. You can't refute using things that were never said to begin with. Then you're just making shit up.

I'm not going to repeat my theory, check out my post in the "Forceusers vs. ST" thread.

[Illuminatus Primus]

On second thought:

Suppose Palpatine decreed the construction of a massive underground resivoir. He bulldozes Coruscantian cityscape. One day, the airspace is abruptly closed, and the cloaked Lusanyka is brought in on repulsor lift and landed in the contruction site. That day, girders and a superstructure are lowered and attached in place above the Lusanyka. The cloak is deactivated and the reconstruction began. With enough timing and the convienent execution/bribing/mental manipulation, Palpy gets away with the Lusankya's burying without anyone the wiser.

It's just a theory, but still, you can't refute using a speculation of an in-universe character because it happens to support your pov more then any other thing. Then you're really just making shit up.

[Mr Bean]

Suppose Palpatine decreed the construction of a massive underground resivoir. He bulldozes Coruscantian cityscape. One day, the airspace is abruptly closed, and the cloaked Lusanyka is brought in on repulsor lift and landed in the contruction site. That day, girders and a superstructure are lowered and attached in place above the Lusanyka. The cloak is deactivated and the reconstruction began. With enough timing and the convienent execution/bribing/mental manipulation, Palpy gets away with the Lusankya's burying without anyone the wiser.

Nice theory however.... your making shit up, not in the way you think however, IE Where did the cloak go? The Emperor had one working model as far as we know and it was in the Mount Tassai store-house so you've invented somthing right there, Two we have a complication, The Lusyanka was built at Fondor according to one EU source but according to Yssard hearself in Book Eight of the X-Wing series she was there when they where building it on Courscant, One could purpose they built sections then moved them to Courscant and or Yssard is just insane it was built at Fondor and then move to Courscant however it still needs to be forgotten

However a note, the Emperor has demostrated great power before, and Luke Certaintly demosrated the Jedi-Mind trick, How diffuclt would it have been.. REALY to make people forget a shape in the sky, or listen through the force to see anyone who notices then call them in and personal brain wipe them himself

And also don't forget the Dark Jedi that where working for Vadar(Whom where evnutaly killed by him) might they have been the ones to do it doing a door by door the's arn't the droids your looking kind of thing


Hell I understand what your going for(Emperor:EVERYONE ITS Galatic look at your feet day! We need everyone to look at thier feet for the next hour!)

But some people, a great many people would have seen and need to be made to forget no matter what the senairo(Oh and Cloaking in Atmopshere? Some what of a bad idea if I remeber from one of the ICS but not sure on that I'll double check, orgional point still stands he has a cloak but what happend to it? Certinalty not the one at Tassai)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Tantiss was the site of Palpatine's quaint tech. Palpatine had cloak technology as early at TPM for Maul.

He tried to deploy it large scale at Imdaar Alpha but Rebel Agents defeated the attempt. He could've just removed the SSD cloak later and installed it aboard the SSD Terror which was equipped with a full cloak.

Palpatine's shuttle had a perfected cloak. Grand Admiral Zaarin had several of the next-generation cloaking shield generators. It appears Tantiss was the drop-off point for quaint, second-rate tech Palpy wouldn't need anymore, just like Tyranus has his antique fetish.

Palpatine's Byss and Coruscant cloning facilities are better then those at Tantiss, he's deployed better cloaks, all the evidence points to Wayland just being a drop-off point for some of his nice little treasures. He is the GALACTIC EMPEROR now, and accumulates some interesting and powerful tech, he's just developped better versions of it.

The cloaks were utilized well outside the Tantiss, and I believe if they used one to help disguise the Lusankya's hiding, it could've been later used as the SSD cloak aboard the Terror SSD.

It was built at KDY. Both KDY and Fondor were commissioned to build the Executor. The KDY Executor was secretly rechristened Lusankya and refitted and secretly buried. This is in the X-Wing series.

I'm just arguing it isn't as if Palpatine can turn a whole planet into zombies controlled by him for months at a time. I'm thinking some people have taken a few quotes too far. My way would still require Palpy's light mental fudging over of the local populace to remain squeaky clean in the Imperial spit-shine fashion. Perfect ruse.

[paladin]

Ripped shirt Kirk with the promise of 30 Green Orion Animal women if he wins.

Against the full might of the Imperial Navy? I like Kirk, but he doesn't stand a chance.

But it's Kirk with a ripped shirt, that makes him invulnerable. However, the Empire would probably give Kirk a better deal(more women).

[Marcus]

Plot.

The one thing that will always be a threat to the Empire (or any paralell orginization) is plot.

Perhaps the single most-regular rule that we have seen in EITHER universe is that the forces of 'light, truth, and all things good' win in the end, despite whatever massive firepower and other advantages (be it Death Stars or Jem'Hadar) one gives to the 'bad guys'.

Unless they are going up against something awful enough to make them 'good guys', the Empire is probably in long-term trouble.

That said, Superaliens from Fluidic Space (aregueably) and 'You will be assimilated' Cyborgs (definitely) are bad enough to make the Empire the Good Guys, so id say they have that one in the bag.

A Babylon 5 Crossover is alot tougher... Bab 5 is drawn in shades of grey. Bet on the empire.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Plot tradition in fiction has no bearing in the senario. Thank you for accepting the ST can't do shit against SW.

Concession Accepted.

[Ender]

the fact that the star wars empire was never able to completely tame it's own galaxy speaks volumes.

There are pockets of Southern Confererate diehards and those kooks out in Wyoming who talk of rebellion against the government and in the latter case conduct the occasional terrorist attack. So does this speak vlumes about the United States?

Whether it takes a decade or a millenia, such a tyranical entity such as the empire will be overthrown.

How idealistic. Newsflash: people will adapt to put up with anything.

lets take a look at history to find an answer. it is almost always small, technologically inferior terrorists that bring down superpowers.

Actually, it's usually the other superpowers that do that, see both World Wars and the Cold War.

The barbaric hoards of Europe destroyed the Roman Empire.

Rome had decayed from the inside ou to the point where the barbarians were marching on Rome before they responded. Earlier in their history they responded swiftly and crushed the hordes. Had politics not stymied their response, they would have done so again.

Rag tag rebels in the United States

Despite what some would have you believe,where it ot for France, another superpower at that time, declaring war on Briain as well, we would have lost it.

and India freed themselves from the once British Empire.

Britain had just lost most everything in WW2, against othersuperpowers, and politically bowed out because of Ghandi's peaceful movement, not due to terrorist attacks.

The masses of South Africa overthrew their racist overlords.

No, the regime stepped down because the uperpowers were no longer supprting it, but were denouncing it. Politics, not military.

Palistinians armed with stones and bottles and bombs destabilize Israel.

Israel looks pretty damn stable to me. In fact, it'sthe Palestinians who have had their capital building occupied twice so far this year, not the Israelies.

Guerillas with makeshift bombs forced the English out of Ireland.

No, Britian moved out of most of Ireland as a result of argeements made with the Irish resistance during the onset of WW2 (Ireland goes free if the Iish fight Germany instead of UK), and they still haven't completely moved out.

AND A HANDFULL OF DESPERATELY OUTNUMBERD SHIPS AND TINY FIGHTERS DESTROYED TWO DEATH STARS.

That was one man, both times. Luke blew up DS1, and by turning Vader who killed Palpatine, the rebels were able to win and take out DS2. NO Luke, Rebels loose. IT's a very big plot point. Hence why he is the galaxay's "New Hope"

Yes there is one thing in the star trek universe that will defeat the empire. it is something that exists in the empire own universe. THE SPIRIT OF THE REBEL!

Rather then flame you, I am just going to assume you are young and naive.

[His Divine Shadow]

Like all quotes, they must be taken in context.

Translation, lets twist this until it means jackshit and generally go on a semantics spree, lets hope noone sees through it.

*snip long long winded pile of bullshit and semantics*

Now all this longwinded crap and blatant lying didn't get that pissed off as this piece of shit here:

Concession Accepted

Go fuck yourself.

THE ENTIRE FUCKING IMPERIAL FLEET ALL THE TIME IT DOESN'T GET MORE CLEARER!

You want context you liar?
The context is the /entire/ fucking imperial fucking fleet and ALL THE TIME for fucks sake, end of fucking story.

There's no semantical escape you can take, we don't buy your crap, it's so painfully obvious it hurts to see how much crap you're full of.
That Palpy managed to get billions of people not notice a FUCKING SSD landing is just icing on the cake.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'm just arguing it isn't as if Palpatine can turn a whole planet into zombies controlled by him for months at a time. I'm thinking some people have taken a few quotes too far. My way would still require Palpy's light mental fudging over of the local populace to remain squeaky clean in the Imperial spit-shine fashion. Perfect ruse.

Blah blah blah, you should have thought of that before you fucking pissed me off with that godamn fucking concession accepted shit you arrogant sonofabitch.

Fact - He made them not notice
Fact - There are billions of people that should have seen it, if not trillions
There's nothing light whatsoever about it.

Thats all there is to, your semantics games just pisses me off more after your aggrevating display of assholeness.

As for affecting all those people, a fucking transmitter can reach untold recievers and it can be as simple as possible it doesn't fucking matter.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Are we a little pissed off, HDS?

(I'm on your side, BTW)

[His Divine Shadow]

Are we a little pissed off, HDS?

Yes I'm majorly pissed off at this plain aggrevating crap of trying to actually twist what the books makes clear as crystal, and to accompany it by a flood of never ending text like DarkStar, but what got me is that godamn concession accepted shit at the end, what a dried up twat...

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Indeed.

I believe this twat needs some moisturizing.

I suggest the nearest river.

[His Divine Shadow]

Yeah well I needed someone to blow off, I've been nice for ages now, it builds up and I need to release it, that final insult was just the straw that broke the camels back and now he's paying the price for being such an ass to me.

[His Divine Shadow]

Here, for you people who have trouble understanding how it works:
The Emperors force guide for dummies.

1. How the Emperor uses the force on his whole fleet.

It's like a transmitter you dolt! It doesn't mean he's got some supernatural mega brain of culture proportions, it just means he's able to send "signals" across the galaxy, this is substansiated by the fact that he could instantly communicated with Mara Jade anywhere in the galaxy, a power that ordinary jedi have too, see Jacen and Jaina for a concrete example.
Another example is Lord Nyax, the waves of pain and hatred he sent out through the force when he died caused Jedi to get a pretty good shock thousands upon thousands of lightyears away.

The Emperor just has to send a singal powerfull enough to encompass the galaxy, apparently this is not a hard thing to do.
It'd probably be structured like a mix between an e-mail message and computer code:

Recipient: members of the imperial fleet(recipient will process this himself subconsciously)
Message:
IF USER MEMBER OF IMP-FLEET THEN(self processed again unconsciously)
Come on, you can do it, for the emperor, yes good boy, thats the way, the Emperor loves you, your family loves you, your superiors love you, your subordinates love you, your pet(s) love you, everybody loves you except those darn rebels, HATE THEM!
ELSE
...
END IF

[NecronLord]

Soo other than V'ger, can anyone think of anything that even has a chance against an ISD?

[NecronLord]

Here, for you people who have trouble understanding how it works:
The Emperors force guide for dummies.

1. How the Emperor uses the force on his whole fleet.

It's like a transmitter you dolt! It doesn't mean he's got some supernatural mega brain of culture proportions, it just means he's able to send "signals" across the galaxy, this is substansiated by the fact that he could instantly communicated with Mara Jade anywhere in the galaxy, a power that ordinary jedi have too, see Jacen and Jaina for a concrete example.
Another example is Lord Nyax, the waves of pain and hatred he sent out through the force when he died caused Jedi to get a pretty good shock thousands upon thousands of lightyears away.

The Emperor just has to send a singal powerfull enough to encompass the galaxy, apparently this is not a hard thing to do.
It'd probably be structured like a mix between an e-mail message and computer code:

Recipient: members of the imperial fleet(recipient will process this himself subconsciously)
Message:
IF USER MEMBER OF IMP-FLEET THEN(self processed again unconsciously)
Come on, you can do it, for the emperor, yes good boy, thats the way, the Emperor loves you, your family loves you, your superiors love you, your subordinates love you, your pet(s) love you, everybody loves you except those darn rebels, HATE THEM!
ELSE

IF USER MEMBER OF REBEL ALLIANCE
You are going to die now
no-one loves you
everyone hates you
you are incompetent

END IF

[His Divine Shadow]

IF USER MEMBER OF REBEL ALLIANCE
You are going to die now
no-one loves you
everyone hates you
you are incompetent

If the Emperor was female perhaps, as a male he can't multitask

[NecronLord]

IF USER MEMBER OF REBEL ALLIANCE
You are going to die now
no-one loves you
everyone hates you
you are incompetent

If the Emperor was female perhaps, as a male he can't multitask

[His Divine Shadow]

That smiley signifies negative sarcasm to me, certanly nothing positive, care to elaborate or shall I take that as a "fuck you" message?

[NecronLord]

That smiley signifies negative sarcasm to me, certanly nothing positive, care to elaborate or shall I take that as a "fuck you" message?

er... what?