Rome: Total War annoyances

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-19 02:48am

I just got this game, and it's really cool but ...

The skirmisher, archer, and artillery AI doesn't recognize friendlies. If there's been chaotic unit movement and one of your men is standing right in front of one of your javelineers, the idiot will throw the fucking javelin right through the guy standing in front of him, and kill him from behind. Same goes for archers and even ballistae; men will wander in front of the thing and get killed if you're not careful.
Addendum to above: the skirmisher, archer, and artillery AI does not recognize obstacles. Sometimes this is handy: archers are magically able to send ballistic fire at enemy units that are behind solid walls and to which they have no line of sight. But it can also be seriously annoying, when you notice that your archers have been attempting to fire through a solid wall at enemy units on the other side, and (naturally) just wasting their arrows on the wall.
Unit groupings don't work properly. If I group two squads of pikemen together, select the group, and tell it to move into the enemy village, they just sit there, not moving at all. I have to individually select each unit in the group, thus making the group useless. Strangely enough, group selection followed by movement works just fine outside the village.
Pathfinding AI. Someone explain this to me: I use artillery to knock down a hole in the wall but at the same time, I sent a battering ram to the main gate and managed to knock it down. Now there's not one, but two ways to enter the city. I order my men to enter the city in various places, and guess what: they all run to the main gate and try to squeeze in through there, even though there's a huge fucking hole in another part of the wall.
City "automanage" settings do not automatically retrain units that are either depleted or ready for upgrades.

Are there any workarounds for these problems? Is there something I'm not doing right?

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-10-19 02:51am

No, you're doing fine. Those things piss me off as well. Which faction are you playing, btw?

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-10-19 03:29am

6. Assaulting cities with stone walls can be buggy. Especially with siege towers. People fall off in the void or a large group gets stuck on 2 sides of the wall

7. civil unrest: over the top?

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-19 07:45am

I would agree with all those problems- especially the first- it's annoying, but you just have to teach yourself to baby around the archer/skirmisher units on the battlefield, making sure they don't get mixed up, shoot arrows into their friends back, etc ... same goes for multiple breaches- you just have to order individual unit sections near the breaches then give the order to enter, that almost always assures they go where you intend them to. The one silver lining of this cloud is that it promotes keeping unit cohesion- having your units get too bunched up is always a bad thing.

Also about sieges, I don't like the set-in-stone 'damage' points assigned to walls, so a wall will always break in *one* section, ladders will only ever get put up in that *one* section, sappers will always collapse a wall in that same *one* section. It's artificial and constricting. What if I want to sap a wall and then climb it to kill defenders still on it? Sorry, you can't.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-10-19 07:50am

That's odd...I've seen the AI retrain units. Are you using military build policy? (The AI Automanage seems to like missile units too. I once left syracuse alone for a bunch of turns due to no governor, came back to a garrison with 3 town watch and the rest were velites.

(Mike, are you going to get down on the championships?

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2004-10-19 10:03am

--So how do you guys like this game? Is it worth getting or is it a game that gets repetitive quickly and therefore boring? How is the multiplayer aspect?

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-10-19 11:14am

Yeah, that is a problem. Now, I am no fan of missile units, so I really don't encounter the problem that often. Sieges, however..yeah, they have some problems.

Hopefully, there will be a patch out that fixes these things.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-10-19 11:44am

Nova Andromeda wrote:--So how do you guys like this game? Is it worth getting or is it a game that gets repetitive quickly and therefore boring? How is the multiplayer aspect?

The multiplayer aspect is awesome. The single player is awesome. It can'
t possibly get boring because each battle is different, each city is different. Get it. If you choose not to get it, cut off your fingers with a baseball bat.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-10-19 02:20pm

Darth Wong wrote:3. Unit groupings don't work properly. If I group two squads of pikemen together, select the group, and tell it to move into the enemy village, they just sit there, not moving at all. I have to individually select each unit in the group, thus making the group useless. Strangely enough, group selection followed by movement works just fine outside the village.

It's possible that the two units couldn't fit down the path at the same time...yeah, stupid programming, I know. I had the same problem once in Medieval, when I tried to get spearmen to fill a gap between two buildings.

4. Pathfinding AI. Someone explain this to me: I use artillery to knock down a hole in the wall but at the same time, I sent a battering ram to the main gate and managed to knock it down. Now there's not one, but two ways to enter the city. I order my men to enter the city in various places, and guess what: they all run to the main gate and try to squeeze in through there, even though there's a huge fucking hole in another part of the wall.

They all go for the closer hole? Only thing I can think of. Either that or they fucked up the programming there *shrug*.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-10-19 03:25pm

There should be a patch out soon enough. This was the game they were using for a BBC2 series last year around this time and it didn't seem to have that many problems back then. I'd assume something as complicated as the AI would need some tweaking even after going gold, most games do.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-10-19 05:09pm

wautd wrote:7. civil unrest: over the top?

God yes. Revolts were simply not that common in the classical era. I can see cities being a little miffed for a few turns after you've seized them, if you don't choose to enslave or massacre the townspeople, but having your capital city suffer repeated riots after decades of peace because of some nebulous "squalor" value is just bullshit. Do you know what people did in those days, when city conditions got so bad that it made them angry? They fucking well took a walk and lived someplace else!

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-10-19 05:14pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
wautd wrote:7. civil unrest: over the top?
God yes. Revolts were simply not that common in the classical era. I can see cities being a little miffed for a few turns after you've seized them, if you don't choose to enslave or massacre the townspeople, but having your capital city suffer repeated riots after decades of peace because of some nebulous "squalor" value is just bullshit. Do you know what people did in those days, when city conditions got so bad that it made them angry? They fucking well took a walk and lived someplace else!

Well... figure out how to mod the game to remove squalor from the public unrest equation.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-10-19 05:19pm

what really gets me is that there is nothing I can do about squalor. NOTHING

I have every single building that could possibly help solve that problem in some of my cities, and it is STILL 100% in a few of them...

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-10-19 05:22pm

I also really really want to declare war on the senate right now as well

"Oh gee senate, you want me to take a city that is halfway across the known world, in 5 years... Ok... but you just had me take another city that is on the other side of the world, and I cant move ships overland due to your damn alliance with Dacia and spain.

GAH!!!

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-10-19 05:39pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:what really gets me is that there is nothing I can do about squalor. NOTHING

I have every single building that could possibly help solve that problem in some of my cities, and it is STILL 100% in a few of them...

Build lots of units... then send them to fight to the death. Peasants are good as far as cheapness goes.

That, or let the city rebel, crush it, and exterminate the population.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2004-10-19 05:52pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:There should be a patch out soon enough. This was the game they were using for a BBC2 series last year around this time and it didn't seem to have that many problems back then. I'd assume something as complicated as the AI would need some tweaking even after going gold, most games do.

From what I've seen of the history channel series, I have a feeling the engine was running in a non-real-time mode, and probably had some scripting and extra AI rules. The frame rates, unit count and unit behavior are far higher/better than what you get in the game, even with a beefy system.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2004-10-19 09:49pm

Another thing, the Senate actually tries to interfere if you buy land off of another faction. It's fucking pissing me off because I'm gonna get punished for buying a third of central Europe as a buffer in case of civil war.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-19 09:54pm

Xenophobe3691 wrote:Another thing, the Senate actually tries to interfere if you buy land off of another faction. It's fucking pissing me off because I'm gonna get punished for buying a third of central Europe as a buffer in case of civil war.

Well it's the Senate. What do you expect?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-10-19 10:01pm

Arrow Mk84 wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:There should be a patch out soon enough. This was the game they were using for a BBC2 series last year around this time and it didn't seem to have that many problems back then. I'd assume something as complicated as the AI would need some tweaking even after going gold, most games do.
From what I've seen of the history channel series, I have a feeling the engine was running in a non-real-time mode, and probably had some scripting and extra AI rules. The frame rates, unit count and unit behavior are far higher/better than what you get in the game, even with a beefy system.

The BBC2 series and the History Channel series are not the same, as I understand it. The BBC show has two people acting as real-time commanders, shouting orders to people at computers, actually playing the game, who then carry out those orders to the best of their abilities. Thus, it is like a kickass version of "Command Decisions" and "Decisive Battles" combined into one, whereas "Decisive Battles" just goes through and runs battles that have already been fought, as they were originally fought.

Predator · Post by **Predator** » 2004-10-20 12:21am

I dont like that you have to tech up to use units that you should be able to use from the start. Hastati, Principes, and Triarii are supposed to work in concert - you should have them from the beginning.

Having finished as Julii, I've been trying out other factions. I dont like the Barbarian factions, both for their smaller tech progression, and also for the graphics of the units themselves.

I do however love the Seleucids and the Greek City States. Seleucids have Cataphracts, Elephants, Phalanx units *and* legionnaires (Silver shield legionaries that they copied from the Romans). Take out Egypt early on and you'll have one powerful empire.

The Greeks have the best Hoplites, and I do love the Phalanx - especially for defending cities. Even against the romans, I've had remote cities that I've not been able to reinforce manage to defend themselves agaisnt vastly superior numbers due to choke-points in city streets.

I havnt tried as Carthage yet, but apparently their units are quite underpowered.

As to squalor, my solution to that is to simply do all I can to slow down population growth. Now, this comes with the detriment of slower ability to tech up, but it also gives you time to build all the population bonus goodies before the population gets out of hand. Once I've reached the greatest population level in a city I try to get growth to 0% or even make it drop. Population control is key to avoiding squalor, and now I rarely have uprisings.

Committing Genocide on each city you conquer doesnt hurt either... :p

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-10-20 04:04am

You guys should really try the realism mod for all your 'retarded tech tree' fixes. Its a much better, more cerebral game afterward. They slow growth, move units around, add units to the barbarians, make Carthage not die in 5 turns, etc. They Egyptians (Ptolemies) didn't use natives in their armies either, so they moved the skins around. It's worth a download.

RTW Realism 2.2 linky

The wall issue is tres lame; I undermined and towered a wall, thinking naively that the tower would go where I clicked, and not directly over the sap point. Needless to say, falling masonry cost me 121 Silver Shield Pikemen with two silver chevrons.

They SERIOUSLY need to implement decent missile fire rules; being able to tell archers to shoot at guys behind a wall, that none of your units actually have LOS to is poor. Sure, the magic flying cameraTM can see them...

Most of my issues are with the strategic level, however. Noone ever becomes a protectorate, you can't bribe armies from other 'cultures' to join you, build one unit/building at a time no matter what they are, etc. Noone ever surrenders either. Cities of 25000 considered 'huge'. Massive, useless gold reserves build up, very boring late game. But its alot of fun anyway... but I only played vanilla ONCE, so I don't really know what its like

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-10-20 04:26am

I'm planning to finish the game as it is now. After that I'll try that realism mod

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-20 06:37am

A comprehensive listing of Rome's flaws

Basically everything is there. Including the chariot foolishness.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-10-20 02:18pm

They are 100% right about the ship AI. When I was playing the Julli, I've had about 30-40 Thracian fleets in one of my ports. Each fleet ranged from every slot filled to one or two ships. So, I go to war with Thrace. The ships are still there. Not one of them bothered to blocade my port. NOT ONE! My "WTF?!" was very big.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-10-20 06:25pm

Its a shame they can't implement a 'detachable hero' system like in Kohan; it's always annoyed me that all you generals have units far better than any you could produce at the start, but you can retrain them anyway. It'd also allow you to upgrade their bodyguards, attach them to infantry, etc. Actually, the Seulicids can't build the equivalent of their bodyguard unit at all; they go from Greek cav to Cataphracts.

EDIT - and how bout those magical 600-man high level rebel armies appearing out of nowhere? Even from revolts in 400-pop cities?

They should have included a management screen too, with cities, what they're building, tax rate, pop, growth, unrest, etc. The having to manually tab around is stupid; lets all go play Civilisation :rolls:

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Rome: Total War annoyances

Rome: Total War annoyances

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