Rome: Total War annoyances

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2004-10-20 09:54pm

I'm playing the realism mod right now. It's pretty good, and the battles now seem longer thanks to have more unit types available. The AI seems to be tweaked as well. I'm not much on longer build times, but it does slow the pace of the game down.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-10-20 10:21pm

Stark wrote:Noone ever becomes a protectorate,

I actually just got the Egyptians to agree to become my protectorate! I had taken everything from them except the three provinces of Egypt proper, destroyed their armies, massacred their cities and rebuilt them to my liking, and exterminated their allies in Pontus. They were out of cash, out of men, and out of hope.

Since I had 680,000 gold with fully stacked build queue's in all my cities, I decided to demand their accession to protectorate status, in exchange for 80,000 gold. They accepted, ending the war short of their annihilation!

...

Then they attacked me the very next turn.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-10-21 12:32am

Okay I played Seulicids on vh/vh, I got attacked by all my neighbours (pontus, armenia, parthia, gypties) straight away, so I kill pontus. With his army smashed, his empire gone, and my greatest hero stomping outside his city, he refused a protectorate. He refused a ceasefire.

Later, the Armenians did the same thing. With Parthia, I let them sit for a bit with just one city (bought 2 and seiged one in a single turn, thought it might demoralise them). They refuse protectorate, refuse ceasefire, refuse ceasefire + 30,000. A fair bit later I kill the 'gypties, they've only got that crappy southern province. Numidia is gone, they've got no access anywhere, no allies, etc. They refuse protectorate. They refuse protectorate + 80,000. They refuse ceasefire. They refuse ceasefire +80,000. Its ridiculous.

Later, as I expand westard into Macedonia, everyone (including factions I'd had trade with for 50 years) declares war on me as soon as I touch their borders. The Gaul/Roman/Macedonian axis, who'd been at war for 30 years, all ally to attack me inside of 5 turns after I took Byzantium. Thrace (and its one province) won't ceasefire even with two full stacks inside their territory, and no friendly armies closer than the river Po.

I'm not sure what the diplomatic engine looks at, but I bet its based on how powerful you are=how much people hate you.

Factions don't become protectorates to WIN or because they LIKE YOU, they do it to SURVIVE. R:TW would have us believe the leading elite of Pontus, Armenia, Ptolemic Egypt, Parthia etc would RATHER DIE than lose control of their forgein policy, which is all a protectorate would entail. I don't *want* to conquer them, I'd prefer a buffer zone... but they never, ever surrender. I've never recieved a single 'cripes stop killing me' envoy, and I control 34 provinces. No man can stop me! But they'll sure fight to the death, just like they did in... oh wait.

EDIT - @ArrowMk84, they strategic AI has been rearranged a bit, but major fixes are waiting on a patch, so there's still Stupid Navies and such. I think the battles are over too fast, but eh.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-10-21 01:07am

Stark wrote:I'm not sure what the diplomatic engine looks at, but I bet its based on how powerful you are=how much people hate you.

At a certain point one would think that people in other nations would say "You know, those fellows control half of the known world, and they have more soldiers than we even have citizens. Maybe we shouldn't, you know, fuck with them."

It works like that in Paradox grand strategy games--there's a "bad boy" variable that goes up as you get bigger at the expense of others, but there's also a "country size" that helps determine some effects. If you have really high bad boy (over a certain threshold), everybody with a border wants a piece of you. But if you have really high bad boy and you're a fucking monstrosity that dominates the entire European continent and bestrides the Mediterrean like a colossus, nobody fucks with you.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-10-21 01:23am

well here's to hoping that the patch will be out by the time I can offord to buy the game...

this week sucks...

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-21 07:47am

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Stark wrote:Noone ever becomes a protectorate,
I actually just got the Egyptians to agree to become my protectorate! I had taken everything from them except the three provinces of Egypt proper, destroyed their armies, massacred their cities and rebuilt them to my liking, and exterminated their allies in Pontus. They were out of cash, out of men, and out of hope.

Since I had 680,000 gold with fully stacked build queue's in all my cities, I decided to demand their accession to protectorate status, in exchange for 80,000 gold. They accepted, ending the war short of their annihilation!

...

Then they attacked me the very next turn.

Fark, how'd you get that much cash? I had about 150,000 denarri, then the Marian reforms came and the massive refit program combined with the advent of more expensive buildings in the bigger cities, and I was near broke for a good long while (i.e. running down my bank account to zero every turn, I was making like 10,000 denarri profit per turn). Now that the great refit is over the profits have shot up, but 600,000?!?! what year is it for you? It's 215 BC for me.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-10-21 08:55am

Pablo, I should note that civil violence in the late Roman Republic was in fact ridiculously common, though I also grant that it usually was instigated by someone rather than just a random mob getting worked up. Probably once you build them all the attractions you can manage to, they'll just riot and fight each over who won a chariot race.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-10-21 12:35pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Pablo, I should note that civil violence in the late Roman Republic was in fact ridiculously common,

It isn't just civil violence, it's actually civil uprisings in which your own citizens expel your garrisons from the city because they don't have sufficient access to clean drinking water. Riots are fine, omnipresent revolts are not. And it doesn't just happen to the Romans, it happens to everybody... the Greek polis, the Successor States, the bullshit ahistorical Pharaonic Egyptians... everybody.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-10-21 12:38pm

Vympel wrote:Now that the great refit is over the profits have shot up, but 600,000?!?! what year is it for you? It's 215 BC for me.

Um, about 201 BC, I think. I did the full rebuilding already... I also don't field that large an army or navy, just three or four experienced groups that mainly fight sieges with an array of auxilliary diplomats that bribe their way through enemy territories. Also I'm only playing on Medium campaign map difficulty, you're probably on VH.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-21 08:09pm

Ah I see now- already I'm starting to get 30,000+ denarri per turn profit again (which will only increase as my conquest of Italy is basically over) and I have about 9 field armies (5 in Italy, 3 in Egypt and 1 in North Africa) so in 30 turns time I'll have obscene amounts of money again.

Only need to conquer 12 more provinces to win the campaign. North Africa and Scipii held Sicily and the Middle East are going to get it, I don't think I'll bother chasing the Julii into Gaul.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-10-22 12:46am

Currently re-installing since the Total Realism mod broke things. I thought I followed the insturctions to the letter. *shrug*

In any case, there were a few changes in that mod that I definitely did not like. For instance, adding a turn to build times was a step in the wrong direction. They were already too long! Slowing town troop movement? One of the first things I noticed and loved about Rome over its predecessors was that moving troops doesn't take forever and a day. Reduced kill rate for longer battles? Why? When I make a masterful cavalry charge from the rear, I want to see them crushed and running.

I understand that it's a "total realism mod", but many of the changes made things less realistic than they already were (ie. building times).

I wish they had broken it into smaller mods, so you can take the things you like without having to take the things you don't.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-10-22 02:28pm

Turns out the problems I was having were due to windows media codecs being overwritten somehow, and not the mod itself, so if anyone's dissuaded from trying it out on account of that, don't be.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-10-22 04:38pm

My 9-star general who was my faction heir and going on a rampage through Asia minor got the plague. And died. FUCK!!!

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-23 05:00am

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote: My 9-star general who was my faction heir and going on a rampage through Asia minor got the plague. And died. FUCK!!!

Loading the game is your friend.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-10-23 11:25am

fuck it, im gonna dl that realism mod and restart. These rebellions are rediculous. And not only me but also at other factions. I see like 10 to 15 states alone on the map

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-24 12:32am

The profit problem is plaguing me too. I find that I have to maintain very large garrisons at most cities in order to keep civil unrest to a minimum, so I end up spending a lot of money on army upkeep just to keep those garrisons in place. As a result, I barely break even with just 1 or 2 field armies. How else can I keep civil unrest down? I find that there are certain territories which seem to be in a near-permanent state of unrest or revolt. Constructing arenas, aqueducts, etc. doesn't seem to placate them.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-10-24 12:34am

Darth Wong wrote:The profit problem is plaguing me too. I find that I have to maintain very large garrisons at most cities in order to keep civil unrest to a minimum, so I end up spending a lot of money on army upkeep just to keep those garrisons in place. As a result, I barely break even with just 1 or 2 field armies. How else can I keep civil unrest down? I find that there are certain territories which seem to be in a near-permanent state of unrest or revolt. Constructing arenas, aqueducts, etc. doesn't seem to placate them.

You'll have a problem with those the whole time. Put good governers in them, and that should help. And you can also strip the garrisons from your inner cites; you really shouldn't need them.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-24 01:40am

The problem with governors is that I don't seem to have enough of them. Know any cute tricks for making a new governor?

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-10-24 01:42am

Darth Wong wrote:The problem with governors is that I don't seem to have enough of them. Know any cute tricks for making a new governor?

Bribe them from other factions. That, and use armies with no generals to fight battles with not-so-good odds. Unless you're playing H/VH you should get an invitation to adopt the Captain.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2004-10-24 10:05am

StormtrooperOfDeath wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The profit problem is plaguing me too. I find that I have to maintain very large garrisons at most cities in order to keep civil unrest to a minimum, so I end up spending a lot of money on army upkeep just to keep those garrisons in place. As a result, I barely break even with just 1 or 2 field armies. How else can I keep civil unrest down? I find that there are certain territories which seem to be in a near-permanent state of unrest or revolt. Constructing arenas, aqueducts, etc. doesn't seem to placate them.
You'll have a problem with those the whole time. Put good governers in them, and that should help. And you can also strip the garrisons from your inner cites; you really shouldn't need them.

Lowering your squalor conditions helps. Sewers, improved farm land and aquaducts help with this. And the more trade a city has, the happer the population is (markets and forums give happiness bonuses). Now if you're doing all of this and still having problems, governers or exterimation are the only things that will help.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-10-24 02:24pm

Darth Wong wrote:The problem with governors is that I don't seem to have enough of them. Know any cute tricks for making a new governor?

Find family members from another faction. Bribe them. Rinse, repeat.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-24 08:01pm

Darth Wong wrote:The profit problem is plaguing me too. I find that I have to maintain very large garrisons at most cities in order to keep civil unrest to a minimum, so I end up spending a lot of money on army upkeep just to keep those garrisons in place. As a result, I barely break even with just 1 or 2 field armies. How else can I keep civil unrest down? I find that there are certain territories which seem to be in a near-permanent state of unrest or revolt. Constructing arenas, aqueducts, etc. doesn't seem to placate them.

What side are you playing as? No matter which side you choose, it always helps to capture lots and lots of coastal territories (GREECE! GREECE! GREECE!

) that can build ports- continually upgrading the port facilities along with some well-placed trade-increasing temples works wonders for your bottom line.

As for bribing other families, I never felt the need. My faction daughters are constantly bringing home any old riff-raff from the street, I had tons of sons, I usually adopt them if they have a few traits I can build on. At this point in the game for me (210BC, all Italy mine, 7 provinces till victory) I have so many sons I don't know what to do with them.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-10-25 05:28pm

The squalor-stimulated unrest is ridiculous; the realism mod tries to offset this by reducing the city growth rates, but I've seen a city at 23,000 pop with 10% squalor and another at 80%, so there's got to be something funky going on somewhere.

Jerusalem never seems to go below 30% unrest, even after 50 years, rule by a 'converted' Ptolemic lord, massive injections (through peasant disbands) or honest Greek stock, etc. Bloody hebrews.

On money... once I discovered the glory that is bribe, I don't even HAVE armies anymore. My frontier is made safe by my perimeter of diplomats and hundreds of thousands in cash. The entire Macedonian army joined me, then prompty captured their own cities!

My attempt to land in Italy was extremely unsuccessful; I'm not sure where they hide the massive armies that keep appearing, and you can't get armies to join you from other 'cultures', so I need to ship legionnaires from the bloody middle east through the hordes of Scipii fleets.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-10-25 06:35pm

Darth Wong wrote:The profit problem is plaguing me too. I find that I have to maintain very large garrisons at most cities in order to keep civil unrest to a minimum, so I end up spending a lot of money on army upkeep just to keep those garrisons in place. As a result, I barely break even with just 1 or 2 field armies. How else can I keep civil unrest down? I find that there are certain territories which seem to be in a near-permanent state of unrest or revolt. Constructing arenas, aqueducts, etc. doesn't seem to placate them.

Bing. Same problem I am suffering with my game. I'm running huge armies
to keep my damn population quelled. Historically, populations in roman
times didn't rebel. The GENERALS did. Rebellious armies were always
a problem, the Legions always had to constantly put down rebellious generals.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2004-10-25 11:26pm

My problem. I need this game.

More seriously though. While playing the demo it infuriates me when my elephants go amok and end up in the middle of my formation, tearing everything apart and there's nothing I can do to stop them. It won't let me kill them.