Empire vs. Empire

[Yogi]

The Empire from Star Wars, right after A New Hope

vs.

The Trantorian Empire at the height of it's power, from the universe of Issac Asimov

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

The Empire from Star Wars, right after A New Hope

vs.

The Trantorian Empire at the height of it's power, from the universe of Issac Asimov

This has been done before, I think. Asimov's Galactic Empire had ships a little bigger than ISDs that could blow up planets. The Galactic Empire of Star Wars would get it's ass kicked.

[HemlockGrey]

The Star Wars empire is massively fucked.

[septesix]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*take a deep breath*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Like others said, More Ships + Bigger Guns + Faster FTL + REAL GALATIC EMPIRE = One really Dead SW copycats....

[His Divine Shadow]

*snip kiddie talk*

Like others said, More Ships + Bigger Guns + Faster FTL + REAL GALATIC EMPIRE = One really Dead SW copycats....

Copycat? Up yours.
We'll acknowledge facts but we won't have little kiddies go around insulting us.

[septesix]

*snip kiddie talk*

Like others said, More Ships + Bigger Guns + Faster FTL + REAL GALATIC EMPIRE = One really Dead SW copycats....

Copycat? Up yours.
We'll acknowledge facts but we won't have little kiddies go around insulting us.

Damn I forget the smilys

lighten up , We know it's not a copycat. There's enough difference between these two to make sure of that.

But with such a similar name and a similar captial planets..it does make me wonder a bit ........

[Crazy_Vasey]

Yeah "The Empire" is just a distinctive name isn't it?

[Mr Bean]

Acutal haveing Recently Read the Foundation and assorted Trantor Empire Short Storys the Trantor Empire's Sublight Engine Speeds are for SHIT

Seriously a inter-solar system trip takes a week from traveling in HS emerging near the sun and flying to Trantor(Which has remarbley similar Conditions to Earth so lets give it the same distance 93 million Miles which we will round up to 150 mil Miles Since they did not start ON the Sun)
Convert to KM
241,400,000 KMs
Lets be Fair Say it was six and a half days instead of the full Week=156 Hours
241400000/156=1,547,435/60 Mintues=25,790 KMs Per Mintue/60=429 KM's Per Second
Not Bad by Todays Standerds but thats 0.001464 C

Two Full Magnitues SLOWER than SW Ships
They are Slow but Powerful, No Estmates on Shield Strength or the eaxact nature of thier weapons or shields, However the Shields are ment to defend aginst "atomics" so thier Abililty to defend aginst Turbolasers or Solid State attacks is questionable,

However it should be noted they are in all likelyhood Highly Vuranble to Ion Cannons however thats just specualtion

Combinded with un-predictablity of thier weapons aginst SW Shielding and SW Weapons Aginst thier Shielding this many turn into Cat and Mouse or a complete Slaughter as even the SW Capships can easily stay ahead of anything the Trantor Empire has and out of thier range

[Yogi]

I remember that the hyperdrive was instentanious. Can't the Foundation ships "teleport" on top of an ISD?

[Slartibartfast]

The Empire wins, hahahaha! The Empire wins!

hahaha heheh... *sigh*

[corbomite]

Seriously a inter-solar system trip takes a week from traveling in HS emerging near the sun and flying to Trantor(Which has remarbley similar Conditions to Earth so lets give it the same distance 93 million Miles which we will round up to 150 mil Miles Since they did not start ON the Sun)
Convert to KM
241,400,000 KMs
Lets be Fair Say it was six and a half days instead of the full Week=156 Hours
241400000/156=1,547,435/60 Mintues=25,790 KMs Per Mintue/60=429 KM's Per Second
Not Bad by Todays Standerds but thats 0.001464 C

Sigh......your post is so unfounded that it made me come over here from SB.com just to shoot it down.

First of all, most of that time is spent calculating the hyperspace jump and then re-calculating it just for god's sake. It's stated VERY explictly in <Foundation's Edge> that First Empire ships spent most of their travel time on hyperspace calcs and doing it for every jump while the Foundation Federation's computers were so powerful that setting up the jumps don't take much time, the ships can jump multiple times in a row and occasional fixes are the only thing required.
Second of all, it's stated in <Foundation's Edge> that the jump looks like a series of starfields just overlapping each other on the screen.
Third, the mode of FTL did not change between the First Empire era and the Foundation Federation era.

[corbomite]

Oops, forgot to add who quoted that.

Can't I edit my own posts?

Oh, to everybody who's seen me at SB.com. Hello!

[His Divine Shadow]

Can't I edit my own posts?

Nope,
1) because we hate you
2) Paranoia is so rampant it's absurd, like everyone's gonna go flame the shit out of someone and then edit it, aaah bullcrap this is paranoid and useless.

[Mr Bean]

First of all, most of that time is spent calculating the hyperspace jump and then re-calculating it just for god's sake. It's stated VERY explictly in <Foundation's Edge> that First Empire ships spent most of their travel time on hyperspace calcs and doing it for every jump while the Foundation Federation's computers were so powerful that setting up the jumps don't take much time, the ships can jump multiple times in a row and occasional fixes are the only thing required.

You bloody Git I'm refering to SUBLIGHT SPEED!

IE they jumped into the Trantor System and flew at .001464C Speed to Trantor itself which Has Earthlike Conditions and no big Heating or Cooling Aparatise so it must be pretty close to Earths Location and its stated in the first Foundaiton book first story(When Seldon creates the Foundation)

I'm not refering to FTL!

I'm suprised you can't even be bother to read what I'm talking about espcilly when I preface it with SUBLIGHT SPEED
TWICE
and then add "THEY EMERGED NEAR THE SUN"
Emerged from what?
Why Hyperspace of course!

[corbomite]

Orginally posted by His Divine Shadow

Nope,
1) because we hate you

Oh, come on!

Seriously, what do they have over here as newbie welcoming traditions?

[Mr Bean]

Seriously, what do they have over here as newbie welcoming traditions?

I never engage in them but I belive they involve alot of poking

[corbomite]

Not a very impressing first post for a newbie....oh well....


BTW, this site has some speed problems.

[Mr Bean]

Yep you managed to Get it totaly wrong but completly ignoring what Calcuations I was doing

[corbomite]

Originally posted by Mr.Bean

Combinded with un-predictablity of thier weapons aginst SW Shielding and SW Weapons Aginst thier Shielding this many turn into Cat and Mouse or a complete Slaughter as even the SW Capships can easily stay ahead of anything the Trantor Empire has and out of thier range

Yes, but we don't know how SW shields would react to First Empire weapons. Especially the Q-beams.

Honestly, it's useless debating these things when we have no evidence.

[GSV Use Psychology]

They are Slow but Powerful, No Estmates on Shield Strength or the eaxact nature of thier weapons or shields, However the Shields are ment to defend aginst "atomics" so thier Abililty to defend aginst Turbolasers or Solid State attacks is questionable,

Since we know next to nothing about the actual nature of their weapons or shields wouldn't it be best to atleast initially assume that they work just as well against TL's and similar?

It's not like one could claim that SD's shields wouldn't protect against phasers either beacuse they aren't ment to defend against those

[Mr Bean]

It's not like one could claim that SD's shields wouldn't protect against phasers either beacuse they aren't ment to defend against those

No except we know Phasers are based on Energy, we know how SW and ST shields work we have lots of Examples but the Weaponry of the Trantorian Empire is centered around ONE thing and one thing only, Atomics

But the point stands as I made earierl this is like 17th Century Riflemen VS 20th Century AWP Armed Snipers on APCs

Sure they weapons can kill Each-other but the Snipers can simply pick the Rifle-men off from 600+ Meters away while the Riflemen must close to 50 to get shots off

[Moonstone Spider]

It should be noted that "Atomics" simply refers to nuclear power of any kind, in the Book "Foundation" the first minister comments that Antique Atomics systems and school projects use Plutonium. The Trantor Empire, depending on the time line, also tended to be quite inventive and their constructs were rather robust, in "Foundation and Chaos" Hari Seldon commented that they built their space elevator cables to withstand 100 times the maximum possible load that could be fit inside the elevator car.

I'm not sure where Mr. Beans calculations come from but they strike me as rather messed up, as he's starting with the notion that they emerged from HS near the sun. That cannot be correct, for Hyperspace in the Asimovian universe cannot operate very close to any gravity well just as SW hyperspace cannot. While an advanced Foundation Drive was able to enter Hyperspace very close to a planet, the crew of that ship suffered intense pain and unconciousness from such a reckless maneuver, it seems highly unlikely they would emerge next to the sun.

Finally actual STL speed would seem to be rather irrelavent to the battle, each Imperial Vessel has weaponry to match the Death Star, and they do have shields of an unknown nature, which if they are even up to holding off just one shot from their own weaponry are tough enough to hold off an entire Amada of Star Destroyers almost indefinetly.

Each Imperial Planet also appears to have a massive fleet protecting it, Trantor alone had 30,000 vessels. Even Anacreon had a fleet equal to roughly 1/2 of one such ship (ie. a fleet that heavily outclasses anything short of the Death Star itself, and it had better bring a defensive fleet with it) and Anacreon was a backwater so unadvanced they were powered with oil and coal, having lost knowledge of atomics.

Thus if they are actually outclassed for speed the Fleets can simply stay close to their worlds and destroy incoming ships that attack them, problem solved. If they need to attack they can simply advance on enemy worlds, punch casually though any defense the Puny SW ships try to mount, and capture them. Star Destroyers might rule empty space where there is nothing useful, but every world will belong to the Trantor Empire and the Star Destroyers can't even control empty space unless Trantorian vessels don't bother to go there. And controlling planets is what matters, empty space means nothing.

[GSV Use Psychology]

No except we know Phasers are based on Energy, we know how SW and ST shields work we have lots of Examples but the Weaponry of the Trantorian Empire is centered around ONE thing and one thing only, Atomics

They also have uber coal that can power starships Although that was after the fall of the Empire...

Without any evidence to suggest otherwise I don't see any reason not to assume that the Foundation Empire also employed energy weapons of somekind. We can't judge anything really from the name and assuming it's something completely different just makes debate impossible. One could argue that Q-beams and Atomblast will ignore the SW Empire's shields with similar logic (nobody's doing that though).

Frankly this is just a small nitpick which I'm not going to argue about, since I feel it's a sorta accepted practise in these debates.
Basicly I'm saying: assume the tech for both sides works normally.
So Q-beams don't magically ignore SW shields or vice versa.

But the point stands as I made earierl this is like 17th Century Riflemen VS 20th Century AWP Armed Snipers on APCs

Sure they weapons can kill Each-other but the Snipers can simply pick the Rifle-men off from 600+ Meters away while the Riflemen must close to 50 to get shots off

Well, since I didn't argue on that point I don't feel the need to comment this.

[Mr Bean]

Its the point, If we can shoot you and you can't shoot us, Who is normaly the winner of those fights?
(Power levels asside)

May I point out dispite numerious refreances to "Weapons that can destroy a planet" and the Like, How many planets during the Entire Trantor Empire series of short storys(They are scattered around) mention the descruction of a world from these "Uber Ships" Is it said how? Know How? Demosrated How?

Sure our Nuclear Weapons can "Destroy the Earth"
How many times have people said this and has it ever been true?

The problem is many times we hear in Dialog that these ships can "Destroy Worlds" but have they ever done it?

[Moonstone Spider]

Its the point, If we can shoot you and you can't shoot us, Who is normaly the winner of those fights?
(Power levels asside)

What reason do you have to think your weapons outrange Trantor weapons? Granted STL speed is superior, but as I pointed out, with the power and numerical difference apparent here the Empire has no way to take advantage of such speed. When the Trantorians decide to conquer Coruscant, all the ISDs in the Empire can either fight and die, or get out of the way while the lumbering supercruisers move in and take a week getting there before conquering it.

May I point out dispite numerious refreances to "Weapons that can destroy a planet" and the Like, How many planets during the Entire Trantor Empire series of short storys(They are scattered around) mention the descruction of a world from these "Uber Ships" Is it said how? Know How? Demosrated How?

Sure our Nuclear Weapons can "Destroy the Earth"
How many times have people said this and has it ever been true?

The problem is many times we hear in Dialog that these ships can "Destroy Worlds" but have they ever done it?

I believe the Mule destroyed a planet he thought the Second Foundation was based on. Also in the Second Foundation Trilogy Hari Seldon had many hundreds of worlds destroyed when they became too chaotic. However the Dialogue of those stories is somewhat ambiguous and they are, at best, official anyway. At any rate, do you have any reason to disregard this evidence? After all, the "Uber Turbolasers" from ICS are never seen to fire in the movie, yet nobody tries to deny their power (okay, I'm sure some crazed trekkies do but they deny everything.)