OK, I know that Saxton didn't authorize this in HIS ITW

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I see, so the only relevant part is referring to him as a "Golden God", even though the afroementioend "God" is telling them not to obey him but do what they choose to do instead (you know, since claiming to be a Deity goes against his programming?) What the FUCK kind of logic is that supposed to be?

It is highly relevant in that his status as Golden God gives him and his entourage a lot of extra credibility in his side of the story. Please remember that so far, all they've given are a bunch of one-sided statements.

So obviously if they weren't killed, measures were taken to safeguard them AND the Ewoks, since you could not possibly save one without saving the other - not with the magnitude of energies we are dealing with. You can't trick someone about something that you already have to avert, can you?

They can try to save their commandoes and the few Ewoks that were lucky enough to be around them. But the rest of their planet is screwed, along with the Ewoks there. Even if you assume they have a planetary shield and put it up to block the debris despite the opposition from the novelization, the momentum impulse of said shield being impacted by a moonlike mass averaging 80km/s (Saxton's calculated average speed, with some chunks being faster) and with enough KE to be in the E29J+ range will have a mass at least in the E21kg range, with an resulting impulse in the 8E25kg/m*s range, with the majority transferred in That kind of impact will be trasmitted into the soil, causing major earthquakes, which would also have been easily noticeable and murderously devastating.

Perhaps, but its doubtful. The "global firestorm" effect is triggered primarily by the heating of the atmosphere by ballistic impact ejecta moving at hypersonic speeds (Mike suggests about 5 km/s, but obviuosly a more violent impact means that ejecta is hurled up at much higher speeds.) - this heating effect occurs both when the ejecta goes UP and when it comes down.

If it is hurled upwards too fast, it would leave the planet because it exceeded the escape velocity and never come back, period. In fact, I suspect the atmosphere is going the direction of Dankayo.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh yeah, and,regarding the "planetary shield network" on Endor:

The Alliance had to strike before the facility was operational - but the Bothans also reported that hte Death Star was protected by a massive defensive shield projected from a generator and dish network located on the surface of the forest moon.

Dish network? Does it refer to the smaller dishes on the large dish? But it says 'on the surface'.

Yes, and do you know how large the surface of a planet is?

And I presume it means more than one generator, since anyy planetary shield network I am ware of incorporates multiple generators (Bothawui, Ukio, Coruscant)

[vakundok]

In the novelisation, at least Han says that they must help.

[Rogue 9]

In the novelisation, at least Han says that they must help.

Phrased as an order, or as a desperate plea? I would say the latter.

[Kurgan]

IRG CommandoJoe: Precisely. Even before the Prequels, we had the catalyst for the Rebellion already, the construction of the Death Star.

A government that builds a weapon of terror like that to frighten its own citizens into line is going to foment insurrection.

Don't mean to help sidetrack into an "which is more evil, the Empire or the Rebellion/NR" (and then a "What is the nature of Evil/Does Evil Exist" ?) argument...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit argument. PALPATINE was the cause of the Galactic Civil War, NOT the Rebellion. PALPATINE was the one who started the whole damned thing in the first place. HE was the one who played both factions in the Naboo invasion and the Clone Wars. It was HE who usurped power from the Old Republic and warped it into the Empire. It was HE who threw the galaxy into civil unrest. That son of a bitch was the cause of it all.

He could get away with his change because the OR had flaws and was falling apart. Also, I can see Palpatine's part in this quite clearly, and am hardly going to say he's totally blameless. Rather, I also see the Rebel Alliance as culpable in choosing to Rebel in a now re-established government, leading to the post-Endor Galactic Civil War.

Remember, most Imperial apologists don't try and say the Empire is fully white. They just point out times when the Rebellion are not white, how the Imperial might not be a perfect sheet of black like a superficial analysis and blind listening to the Rebellion would have.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Phrased as an order, or as a desperate plea? I would say the latter.

Plea. He's hardly in a position to give Orders to the Ewoks.

Luke was trying to tell them how it is necessary to defeat the Empire with things like "The Empire is trying to turn out the lights". Why would he bother doing that if he didn't want their help, and you didn't think when Leia said "Do it because of the trees", "do" didn't mean "help us", did you? (P.113-114).

[vakundok]

Yes, and do you know how large the surface of a planet is?

And I presume it means more than one generator, since anyy planetary shield network I am ware of incorporates multiple generators (Bothawui, Ukio, Coruscant)

Actually, I cannot even grasp how large our capitol is, despite it is relative small.
However, what I am really afraid:
So, the ITW says that the DS was protected by a shield network on Endor. One dish was definitely destroyed. So, the loss of one dish will cause the network to fail. now let's see the globes on the Executor again ...

The planetary shield network is an othefr thing since in that case they are positioned on the surface of the defended object. In my opinion, this addition is unneccesery, illogical, and does not really fit to the movie, since we saw only a single shield tube on the tactical hologram.

[Rogue 9]

No, the dish they destroyed was the one projecting the shield onto the Death Star, not anything controlling the entire planetary shield grid.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

A government that builds a weapon of terror like that to frighten its own citizens into line is going to foment insurrection.

See Previous Argument set on topic

[vakundok]

In the novelisation, at least Han says that they must help.

Phrased as an order, or as a desperate plea? I would say the latter.

As a plea. Connor asked whether the rebells actually asked for the Ewok's help.

[vakundok]

No, the dish they destroyed was the one projecting the shield onto the Death Star, not anything controlling the entire planetary shield grid.

Read what Connor quoted from the ITW.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

He could get away with his change because the OR had flaws and was falling apart.

So was the Third Reich an improvement upon the Weimar Republic? The Weimar Republic definitely had its flaws and was definitely falling apart. But can you sit there and tell me that Hitler "could get away with his change" because the Weimar Republic was falling apart? The Third Reich provided all of the things the Galactic Empire provided; low crime, unity, stability, etc. along with the genocide.

Also, I can see Palpatine's part in this quite clearly, and am hardly going to say he's totally blameless. Rather, I also see the Rebel Alliance as culpable in choosing to Rebel in a now re-established government, leading to the post-Endor Galactic Civil War.

You therefore would condemn the resistance fighters in Nazi Germany for resisting once the Third Reich was established. I'd say the resistance fighters would be justified in rebelling, even if it did lead to civil war in the future.

Remember, most Imperial apologists don't try and say the Empire is fully white. They just point out times when the Rebellion are not white, how the Imperial might not be a perfect sheet of black like a superficial analysis and blind listening to the Rebellion would have.

Some of them are quite loony as well. I don't think I've seen any on SD.net, but I recall reading shit some idiots posted trying to completely justify the all of the Empire's actions.

[Kurgan]

A government that builds a weapon of terror like that to frighten its own citizens into line is going to foment insurrection.

See Previous Argument set on topic

Right, I said I wasn't trying to sidetrack the argument, only that I agreed that the Empire (and specifically the Emperor) caused the shit that was the Civil War.

[Connor MacLeod]

It is highly relevant in that his status as Golden God gives him and his entourage a lot of extra credibility in his side of the story. Please remember that so far, all they've given are a bunch of one-sided statements.

Nice try. Now are you actually going to deal with the fact he FUCKING FLAT OUT TOLD THEM TO DO AS THEY CHOSE? That little tidbit sort of nullifies his "Godlike" status. Keep in mind that I have presented TWO bits of evidence contradicting your assertion that Threepio's status had ANYY influencee on the Ewoks decisions to assist the Rebels. You to my knowledge have presented none. Concession fucking accepted.

They can try to save their commandoes and the few Ewoks that were lucky enough to be around them. But the rest of their planet is screwed, along with the Ewoks there.

Yeah. So how the fuck did they protect the commandos from global firestorms , secondary radiation, grroundquakes, and blast wave effects from multiple impacts again?

Even if you assume they have a planetary shield and put it up to block the debris despite the opposition from the novelization, the momentum impulse of said shield being impacted by a moonlike mass averaging 80km/s (Saxton's calculated average speed, with some chunks being faster) and with enough KE to be in the E29J+ range will have a mass at least in the E21kg range, with an resulting impulse in the 8E25kg/m*s range, with the majority transferred in That kind of impact will be trasmitted into the soil, causing major earthquakes, which would also have been easily noticeable and murderously devastating.

Hello? ISNT THAT WHAT I'VE ALREADY FUCKING SAID? How does this affect the fact that in order to protect the Rebels they would also have to avert the short term consequences of extinction affecting the planet itself? While the momentum effects ARE devastating, most of the catastrophic effects of an impact comes from the energy.

Remember also that according to ITW: OT, they've already been suffering groundquakes and other disturbances from the ENTIRE mass of the Death Star already (that includes the fuel supply AND the mass of the station itself.) - the momentum-based consequences are going to be less after the fact due to the omnidirectional nature of the DS2's explosion (they're absorbing a fraction of the overall mass/energy the station originally possessed.)

If it is hurled upwards too fast, it would leave the planet because it exceeded the escape velocity and never come back, period.

Which affects the point that it has to heat the atmosphere goign UP through the atmosphere how, exactly? At best you lose half the heating you would normally get. (and this assumes that all ejecta is accelerated upwards at equal rates - some is goign to be ejected up faster, some slower.) Nice try ducking the point though.

In fact, I suspect the atmosphere is going the direction of Dankayo.

IIRC it takes aroudn e27 joules to dissipate the atmosphere of an Earth-mass planet. The everything living on the planet, including the Rebels and Imperials, would have been incinerated long before then.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, I cannot even grasp how large our capitol is, despite it is relative small.
However, what I am really afraid:
So, the ITW says that the DS was protected by a shield network on Endor. One dish was definitely destroyed. So, the loss of one dish will cause the network to fail. now let's see the globes on the Executor again ...

According to the novelization, they took out the power generator inside the facility as well as the dish. Any other generators could serve as redundancy.

The planetary shield network is an othefr thing since in that case they are positioned on the surface of the defended object. In my opinion, this addition is unneccesery, illogical, and does not really fit to the movie, since we saw only a single shield tube on the tactical hologram.

This was brought up long ago. Mike also pointed out we never saw the atmosphere of the planet, or the ships in orbit around the Death STar (the Executor, etc.) So one can hardly argue the shield diagram on Home One is irrefutable proof of anything.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

So was the Third Reich an improvement upon the Weimar Republic? The Weimar Republic definitely had its flaws and was definitely falling apart. But can you sit there and tell me that Hitler "could get away with his change" because the Weimar Republic was falling apart? The Third Reich provided all of the things the Galactic Empire provided; low crime, unity, stability, etc. along with the genocide.

For awhile, it was. And definitely, in the better days of the Weimar Republic, IIRC Hitler tried and failed to get power.

You therefore would condemn the resistance fighters in Nazi Germany for resisting once the Third Reich was established. I'd say the resistance fighters would be justified in rebelling, even if it did lead to civil war in the future.

If they are causing trillions of casualties, they should at least shoulder their proportion of the blame for the deaths (I could concede that Imperial policies may be too harsh, but it is a circle, extra rebellion causes extra reprisals). If they succeed, then replace it with a NR-like government...

Some of them are quite loony as well. I don't think I've seen any on SD.net, but I recall reading shit some idiots posted trying to completely justify the all of the Empire's actions.

An Imperial apologist (Yes, I'd definitely acknowledge I'm quite deep by SDN and in fact most standards on the apologist part of the spectra)'s life is very hard. We try and justify it as much as possible. We know that we can never fully whitewash the Empire blowing up Alderaan. We could, however point out that the government and people were moving toward treason, or that the alternative of long seige blockade might be worse overall, or that blowing up a moon (like some suggest) simply is no demonstrative replacement.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Nice try. Now are you actually going to deal with the fact he FUCKING FLAT OUT TOLD THEM TO DO AS THEY CHOSE? That little tidbit sort of nullifies his "Godlike" status. Keep in mind that I have presented TWO bits of evidence contradicting your assertion that Threepio's status had ANYY influencee on the Ewoks decisions to assist the Rebels. You to my knowledge have presented none. Concession fucking accepted.

Actually, again, Connor. It does not. It is kind of like your mother telling you you should get Guy A because Guy A is really, really bad. But it is "your choice." So you choose to go get Guy A.

Are you going to tell me that the fact it was your mother saying Guy A was bad would have had nothing to do with your "free choice?" Are you telling me if Stranger Nobody said the same thing, you would accord it the same unthinking credibility?

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, again, Connor. It does not. It is kind of like your mother telling you you should get Guy A because Guy A is really, really bad. But it is "your choice." So you choose to go get Guy A.

Are you going to tell me that the fact it was your mother saying Guy A was bad would have had nothing to do with your "free choice?" Are you telling me if Stranger Nobody said the same thing, you would accord it the same unthinking credibility?

Apparently, you've decided to concede the argument except for semantically nitpicking this. As I have already indicated I have:

a.) provided evidence that explicitly indicates Threepio was not programmed to "impersonate a deity" which forbade him from doing as Han asked (using his "divine influence" to save them.)

b.) I provided an explicit quote indicating that Threepio said the Ewoks must choose for themselves.

You, on the other hand, respond with alot of semantical-nitpicking bullshit and hand-waving speculation, but no real hard proof. Its blatantly obvious you can't back up your point, so you're just hoping I'll give over quietly and let you have your away. Guess again. As I said before, Concession fucking accepted.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

For awhile, it was.

Are you kidding me? The Third Reich "for a while" was better than the Weimar Republic? In what respects?

And definitely, in the better days of the Weimar Republic, IIRC Hitler tried and failed to get power.

Um...how does this have to do with anything? You lost me.

If they are causing trillions of casualties,

Did you forget which universe you're in? There aren't even a trillion humans in existence IRL. A more reasonable number would be thousands, or even millions.

they should at least shoulder their proportion of the blame for the deaths (I could concede that Imperial policies may be too harsh, but it is a circle, extra rebellion causes extra reprisals). If they succeed, then replace it with a NR-like government...

Why should the resistance fighters have to apologize for additional deaths that were directly caused by Hitler's Third Reich in the first place? Why should they have to apologize for trying to defend themselves from brutal oppression? Why should they have to apologize for fighting for their survival? I find this idea of apologizing for fighting the Nazis absolutely disgusting.

An Imperial apologist (Yes, I'd definitely acknowledge I'm quite deep by SDN and in fact most standards on the apologist part of the spectra)'s life is very hard.

I wouldn't say that. There are tons of Imp fans here at SDN.

We try and justify it as much as possible. We know that we can never fully whitewash the Empire blowing up Alderaan.

Duh.

We could, however point out that the government and people were moving toward treason,

I believe you have it reversed. The Empire was the government and the Imperials were the people that were moving towards treason, not the Rebellion! THEY were the ones that overthrew the Old Republic.

or that the alternative of long seige blockade might be worse overall,

That can't be worse than totally annihilating a planet. At least the planet and most/some of its inhabitants would still be alive.

or that blowing up a moon (like some suggest) simply is no demonstrative replacement.

Is this in reference to Endor or something else?

Anyways, I gotta get to bed. It's frigging late here in NY. Night.

[vakundok]

Actually, I cannot even grasp how large our capitol is, despite it is relative small.
However, what I am really afraid:
So, the ITW says that the DS was protected by a shield network on Endor. One dish was definitely destroyed. So, the loss of one dish will cause the network to fail. now let's see the globes on the Executor again ...

According to the novelization, they took out the power generator inside the facility as well as the dish. Any other generators could serve as redundancy.

So, the generators can be redundant, the dishes cannot. Then, the globes must contain a shield projector at least! Do not answer, I am just kidding.

The planetary shield network is an othefr thing since in that case they are positioned on the surface of the defended object. In my opinion, this addition is unneccesery, illogical, and does not really fit to the movie, since we saw only a single shield tube on the tactical hologram.

This was brought up long ago. Mike also pointed out we never saw the atmosphere of the planet, or the ships in orbit around the Death STar (the Executor, etc.) So one can hardly argue the shield diagram on Home One is irrefutable proof of anything.

Well, I think it was a reasonable representation of the shield of the DS, which had tactical importance (unlike the shield around Endor, for example). Because one (or many) portion is bad, you cannot ignore the whole, especially if there is at least one explanation why that portion is bad. Multiple shield projectors on the surface of the moon do not resolve the most interesting thing, that 'they' projected the shield trough the DS, since there are points in(?) the shield which had no LOS to Endor. Besides, the tactical hologram is an important clue about the size of the DS2.

With the dish and generator network (protecting the DS) idea, we now have to find an explanation why the DS became undefended after the loss of one generator+dish in the network ... I call it an unneccesery addition.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I just decided to give prioritization on this, because I knew you would reply before I can get the other posts up and because I'm still thinking up the rebuttal I want for the rest. You have good points there (how to save the commando team from the onslaught is a great challenge) that I actually have to mull over, unlike this. You might also want to remember I am now in the rather unfavorable position of debating a few other people as well, so don't expect fast answers on the harder and more technical questions.

a.) provided evidence that explicitly indicates Threepio was not programmed to "impersonate a deity" which forbade him from doing as Han asked (using his "divine influence" to save them.)

1) He was reluctant, but willing to "demonstrate" his "divine power" on Luke's order (P.110), thus he is impersonating a deity there.
2) The important thing is what the Ewoks thought of him (P.114), and it is clear they think of him as a God right to the end.

b.) I provided an explicit quote indicating that Threepio said the Ewoks must choose for themselves.

I acknowledged that. What part of my point do you not understand, that just because he said they could choose has nothing to do with his Ewok-granted divine status and its vital effect on his credibility? You seem to be under the delusion that his statement that they are free to choose means all of the sudden he ain't a God in their eyes. This is clearly untrue.

Note passages like:

"The friends of the Golden One tell us this Force is in great jeopardy."

Do you notice everyone's elses' position. They are still associated with the Golden One (read: God Threepio), which is why they aren't merely unfortunate salvages to be trapped and eaten. Their words gain credibility from the fact that they are friends of C3PO, which the Ewoks see as a God. Get it?

[Captain Cyran]

"The friends of the Golden One tell us this Force is in great jeopardy."

Do you notice everyone's elses' position. They are still associated with the Golden One (read: God Threepio), which is why they aren't merely unfortunate salvages to be trapped and eaten. Their words gain credibility from the fact that they are friends of C3PO, which the Ewoks see as a God. Get it?

Ah, you mean like all those times. Even when he threatened them, that they basically went "Piss off, we're hungry." in the movies? 3PO's allies were definately seen as food, and although 3PO was a God he apparently wasn't much feared or thought too greatly of.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Ah, you mean like all those times. Even when he threatened them, that they basically went "Piss off, we're hungry." in the movies? 3PO's allies were definately seen as food, and although 3PO was a God he apparently wasn't much feared or thought too greatly of.

They seemed a lot more respectful after that floating trick. They just hadn't associated his friends with God Threepio yet, I guess. Rather, they seem to be sacrifices to Threepio at first (P.108), suggesting Threepio was greatly respected, until Threepio made it clear in no uncertain terms that's not what he wanted. Seeing we don't quite know what Logray said exactly, it may just be that the old Golden One would have liked sacrifices, and that surprised him, causing the doubt in Logray ("Hey, the Golden One would have wanted sacrifices. You aren't the Golden One after all, just an imposter") thus forcing Threepio in that flying trick.

[Captain Cyran]

Ah, you mean like all those times. Even when he threatened them, that they basically went "Piss off, we're hungry." in the movies? 3PO's allies were definately seen as food, and although 3PO was a God he apparently wasn't much feared or thought too greatly of.

They seemed a lot more respectful after that floating trick. They just hadn't associated his friends with God Threepio yet, I guess. Rather, they seem to be sacrifices to Threepio at first (P.108), suggesting Threepio was greatly respected, until Threepio made it clear in no uncertain terms that's not what he wanted.

In the movies he told them repeatedly that he did not want these beings to be sacrificed to him. He threatened them with destruction if they sacrificed his friends. They didn't take him seriously until he (Well, Luke.) did something to impress them. They didn't have tons of respect for this Golden God. Seriously, when a god tells you to do something and you have some respect for that god or what that god can do. You do it. That respect is not apparent in any way.

EDIT: Got rid of italics for ease of debate. Also, I am going to bed now so no more posts from me for the night.