WoT: Why are the Aiel so Über?

[Companion Cube]

Having read the Wheel of Time a fair while ago, my memories are fairly hazy, especially regarding the Aiel- why are they so dangerous? As far as I can remember, they knew how camouflage worked, and were pretty damn brave, but is that all? I seem to remember them being more of an object of fear than the above suggested.

[Enforcer Talen]

from what I recall, they arent that respected on these boards.

[SylasGaunt]

The reason the Aiel are considered so uber in the WOT is because that on an individual level they're extremely capable fighters. An unarmed Aiel is supposed to be on an even footing with a skilled sword user.

That and there's a double wide buttload of them.

[Alex Moon]

The aiel aren't really that good of fighters. THeir main advantages are speed and numbers. The reason that they are so successful is that the other militaries in WoT are by and large incompetant. Artur Hawkwing was considered the 'golden age' of military skill. Since then things have been in decline. By the time of the Aiel War, most non-borderland nations fielded very small armies of no more than 5-6000 troops. The standard formations of the time consisted of a core of royal guards or similar professionals, surrounded by house armsmen and conscripts of dubious quality. Notice that the most heavily armed and skilled troops come from the Borderlands, where trolloc raids were a way of life that forced them to keep large standing armies.

This is in large part due, I believe, to the White Tower. By holding the political situation stagnent for so long, they have eliminated the need for large armies. Most nations were reduced to border wars and cattle raids. Even larger conflicts tended to be short lived, and with Aes Sedai in every facet of politics on both sides, weren't likely to succeed in getting anywhere. After Hawkwing the Tower wasn't about to let one nation gain too much influence over the continent.

The Aiel war played out the way it did in large part due to these weaknesses. The battle of the Shining Walls was the first and only battle by the Grand Alliance, and it was years into the war.

[Enforcer Talen]

so does that mean the millions of troops running around in book 10 have always been there, just employed else where?

they seemd to come out of nowhere

[Alex Moon]

so does that mean the millions of troops running around in book 10 have always been there, just employed else where?

they seemd to come out of nowhere

What millions are you talking about? The Aiel clans have maybe 500,000 soldiers total. Next largest are the Seanchen, but they've been preparing for generations for this invasion. The rest of the powers have armies smaller than 100,000 each. In most cases these troops are recent conscripts/volunteers.

[Stormbringer]

A lot of the Aiel Uberness is nothing more than authorial fiat. The tactics wouldn't truly work and their equipment isn't sufficient to grant them. They're only so badness by virtue of authorial fiat.

The aiel aren't really that good of fighters. THeir main advantages are speed and numbers. The reason that they are so successful is that the other militaries in WoT are by and large incompetant.

Actually, that should really be the majority of Tear and Cairhairen's; both had the competent troops buried under well connected hacks. The Borderlands, Andor, Illian, and the Seanchan are all tough and competent. All of them have merit driven militaries that train hard and aren't riddled with internal politics. The Whitecloaks might be included with that, but it's hard to say.

Artur Hawkwing was considered the 'golden age' of military skill. Since then things have been in decline.

Mostly because of population and resource dimishments. The population is Hawkwing's day was at the pinnacle of what could be achieved with out an industrial tech-base. As that was lost in the Hundred Years war the means for the sophisticated standing armies was lost outside of the Borderlands.

so does that mean the millions of troops running around in book 10 have always been there, just employed else where?

they seemd to come out of nowhere

What millions are you talking about? The Aiel clans have maybe 500,000 soldiers total. Next largest are the Seanchen, but they've been preparing for generations for this invasion. The rest of the powers have armies smaller than 100,000 each. In most cases these troops are recent conscripts/volunteers.

There are millions of Aiel, and most of them have at least a buttload of combat training as confirmed by Perrin's pursuit of the Shaido. Not all warriors but all capable of fighting.

[Jalinth]

Having read the Wheel of Time a fair while ago, my memories are fairly hazy, especially regarding the Aiel- why are they so dangerous? As far as I can remember, they knew how camouflage worked, and were pretty damn brave, but is that all? I seem to remember them being more of an object of fear than the above suggested.

Essentially they are very skilled fighters - liked Jordan thought of "evolution" in this - any weak ones died in the wastelands long ago, so each generation is "fitter".

Also, remember that most Aiel men and a number of women have been fighting from a very young age. They are extremely fit, extremely fast, almost invisible (although I can't see how living in a desert allows you to conceal yourself in a forest - anyways), and have large numbers. This makes them very effective and deadly fighters/

How good the Aiel mob (they don't really seem to use formations in the early books I've read - I stopped by book VII out of disgust with Jordan) they'd be if faced by a proper army (insert Roman or Persian force here) is another question.

[Stormbringer]

They are extremely fit, extremely fast, almost invisible (although I can't see how living in a desert allows you to conceal yourself in a forest - anyways), and have large numbers.

They know camoflague; it basically comes down to that. A lot of the same tricks can be applied to any environment, it's just a matter of adapting the materials. The key thing is to make sure one doesn't look, well, human; break up the human outline, confuse the shadows, etc. That applies to camoflauge in all enviroments. The Aiel are smart enough to know that.

How good the Aiel mob (they don't really seem to use formations in the early books I've read - I stopped by book VII out of disgust with Jordan) they'd be if faced by a proper army (insert Roman or Persian force here) is another question.

Not nearly as well, stink whacktastic but as we see in New Spring and some of the later books, against a disciplined fighting force ready for them they take a lot heavier losses. They've still better than they should be, but they're not the be all end all.

[Terminator]

because they are cheap fremen (of dune) rip offs and thier uberness is derived in the same manner, harshness of habitat=fighting skill
at east thats how it works in most fiction

[Stormbringer]

Must you troll ever topic?

[fgalkin]

because they are cheap fremen (of dune) rip offs and thier uberness is derived in the same manner, harshness of habitat=fighting skill
at east thats how it works in most fiction

So, you're saying that any work of fiction where uberness is derived from the harshness of the habitat is a Dune rip-off?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Terminator]

because they are cheap fremen (of dune) rip offs and thier uberness is derived in the same manner, harshness of habitat=fighting skill
at east thats how it works in most fiction

So, you're saying that any work of fiction where uberness is derived from the harshness of the habitat is a Dune rip-off?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

certainly not but its definitly a reccuring theme in in alot of sci-fi/fantasy
the desert people who follow the outsider main character/messiah sorta is
i don't realy think the WOT is a ripoff (not of any one thing at any rate) i'm just bitter at how much the series has gone down, i'm not gonna read another one till he finishes the damn thing. I realy liked the series till i read a song of ice and fire, it realy made jordans flaws as a writer kinda glaring

though the whole habitat=fighting skill thing does kinda bother me, its like an arbtrary protaganist superiority thing.

[HemlockGrey]

The Aiel are cheap, that's why. Armed only with short spears and no armor, they somehow repeatedly defeat heavily armored cavalry, pikemen, and without any knowledge of siege equipment or siege warfare whatsoever they easily sweep away some of the largest and wealthiest cities in the known world. Their massive armies move without any sort of supply train or knowledge of logistical necessities without stripping the landscape for miles in every direction.

[Sriad]

This doesn't have a lot to do with direct military ability, but the fact that the Wise Women or whatever they are don't have any restrictions on their use of the Power and aren't breeding the ability to channel out of the general population would have a lot of secondary benifits. For example, more/better healing means more Aiel will survive battle and become veterans.

[Ghost Rider]

because they are cheap fremen (of dune) rip offs and thier uberness is derived in the same manner, harshness of habitat=fighting skill
at east thats how it works in most fiction

So, you're saying that any work of fiction where uberness is derived from the harshness of the habitat is a Dune rip-off?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

certainly not but its definitly a reccuring theme in in alot of sci-fi/fantasy
the desert people who follow the outsider main character/messiah sorta is
i don't realy think the WOT is a ripoff (not of any one thing at any rate) i'm just bitter at how much the series has gone down, i'm not gonna read another one till he finishes the damn thing. I realy liked the series till i read a song of ice and fire, it realy made jordans flaws as a writer kinda glaring

though the whole habitat=fighting skill thing does kinda bother me, its like an arbtrary protaganist superiority thing.

Then why post they are Fremen Part Deux in the first place. Why spam it if when confronted you're just going to go "Well not really."

As for they are uber...not really. They just use the One power more then more then any other army barring the Dark One's and the Seanchen.

[Stormbringer]

The Aiel are cheap, that's why. Armed only with short spears and no armor, they somehow repeatedly defeat heavily armored cavalry, pikemen, and without any knowledge of siege equipment or siege warfare whatsoever they easily sweep away some of the largest and wealthiest cities in the known world. Their massive armies move without any sort of supply train or knowledge of logistical necessities without stripping the landscape for miles in every direction.

Once again we get on this stupid rant of yours.

Most of the time the Aiel have faced competent heavy cavalry and pikes they've gotten bloodied badly. Mat, Lan, and the Borderlanders have all made mincemeat out of Aiel with just those tactics, properly applied. It's idiots like the Cairhairen or Tairen nobles that tend to get massacred.

As for the Aiel themselves, once again you're moronic insistance on denying the evidence for what the Aiel do have is patent. The Aiel do have more than just spears. Have you missed the thousands upon thousands of references to their (damn good) bows as well? Or the hundreds, if not thousands, of mentions of their sheilds? Or have you simply chosen to ignore all that? Or that countless references to them using any weapon but a sword when need be?

As for seiges, the only real city they successfully managed to take, and that was no siege, was Cairhairen. And that was taken by a combination of utterly suprised, inept guards and simple political strife; there was never any seige. Any time they've attempted to lay seige it's been a bloody mess; they didn't take Tar Valon nor did the Shaido successfully besiege Cairhairen despite it only having token defenders.

As to logistics, the only times the Aiel have moved in large group they've pillaged as badly as the Huns or Mongols ever did. Or did you miss Rand worrying about that very fact in Shadow Rising? Or Perring following the swath they left in Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight? And why do you think that shortly after Rand broke the Shaido he dispersed the Aiel immediately to various posts in his conquered realms?

So once again, the Aiel are overblown, but your deliberately ignoring a good of points to the contrary just so you can having whiny rant is far worse.

As for they are uber...not really. They just use the One power more then more then any other army barring the Dark One's and the Seanchen.

I think you mean the Asha'man for this one. The Aiel didn't channel in battle at all until Dumai's Wells.

[Ghost Rider]

As for they are uber...not really. They just use the One power more then more then any other army barring the Dark One's and the Seanchen.

I think you mean the Asha'man for this one. The Aiel didn't channel in battle at all until Dumai's Wells.

D'oh that's right.

[Symmetry]

A lot of the Aiel Uberness is nothing more than authorial fiat. The tactics wouldn't truly work and their equipment isn't sufficient to grant them. They're only so badness by virtue of authorial fiat.

I don't know about the tactics not working, they seem to be pretty much taken out of Shaka Zulu's handbook, and they worked pretty well for him.

[Stormbringer]

A lot of the Aiel Uberness is nothing more than authorial fiat. The tactics wouldn't truly work and their equipment isn't sufficient to grant them. They're only so badness by virtue of authorial fiat.

I don't know about the tactics not working, they seem to be pretty much taken out of Shaka Zulu's handbook, and they worked pretty well for him.

Not against pikes and heavy cavarly. For Aiel tactics to work against them they've need to be far faster and have obscene reaction times.

[Imperial Overlord]

My memory of the Jordan books is a blur, so I don't recall how the pikemen were equipped. But in real life Spannish sword and bucklermen beat pikemen when Spain and France were squabbling over Italy (its in The Prince and I think, one of Kegan's books off the top of my head). They used their speed and got into close quarters where they cut them apart. The Aiel could have done something similar being speedy and uber-wanky.

Anyone know how that desert supports an unholy horde of Aiel?

[Stormbringer]

My memory of the Jordan books is a blur, so I don't recall how the pikemen were equipped. But in real life Spannish sword and bucklermen beat pikemen when Spain and France were squabbling over Italy (its in The Prince and I think, one of Kegan's books off the top of my head). They used their speed and got into close quarters where they cut them apart. The Aiel could have done something similar being speedy and uber-wanky.

It's possible to break pikes, especially weakly held formations. That's the essence of the cavalry charge after all and it's not impossible. The point is that it shouldn't really happen easily, especially not when the pikes are backed by heavy cavalry. And even then breaking them should inflict significant casualties.

The Aiel can do it, it just shouldn't be as easily as the books make it out to be. But then again the Tairen and Cairhairen pike (and horse) were all pretty poor quality.

Anyone know how that desert supports an unholy horde of Aiel?

Because it's a continental sized body? It doesn't support an unreasonable amount of Aiel, it's just huge.

[Imperial Overlord]

Thanks Stormbringer. I remember the desert as being pretty small, but that might have been because at the edge of one of the maps IIRC (which is iffy. I haven't read Jordan in years and the books are so repetitive they tend to flow together.)

[Alex Moon]

Thanks Stormbringer. I remember the desert as being pretty small, but that might have been because at the edge of one of the maps IIRC (which is iffy. I haven't read Jordan in years and the books are so repetitive they tend to flow together.)

The maps in the book end with the spine of the world and just the edge of the waste. There actually is a guide to the WoT that shows a world map. In this map, the Aiel waste is almost a thousand miles wide.

[Symmetry]

I don't know about the tactics not working, they seem to be pretty much taken out of Shaka Zulu's handbook, and they worked pretty well for him.

Not against pikes and heavy cavarly. For Aiel tactics to work against them they've need to be far faster and have obscene reaction times.

The Spanish sword and buckler combination, pretty similar to the Aeil's armerment, was very effective against the Swiss pike formations in the wars in Italy in the early 1500s that Machiavelli wrote about. I'll concede on calvalry though.