I've actually heard a christian defend this passage.... he defended it with God needing to consolidate Elisha's status as "chosen one".....
This, however, doesn't change that the equivalent of this would be if the Soviet Union had a man executed because he mocked Stalin's moustache. (and knowing a lot about the USSR, I think this even could have happened.... )
On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if God would commit such atrocities only to show how mighty he is.... after all, if power corrupts, then omnipotence must corrupt tremendously....[/i]
Last edited by Peregrin Toker on 2002-11-05 10:39am, edited 1 time in total.
"Hi there, would you like to have a cookie?"
"No, actually I would HATE to have a cookie, you vapid waste of inedible flesh!"
Vympel, I recommend the following response to your friend:
"Thank you for demonstrating once and for all that your beliefs can be used to justify hatred and violence. CONCESSION ACCEPTED."
BUGGER, why didn't I think of that!!!
Actually, I basically said that- it's quite a warped sense of justice that mandates maiming/killing for verbal insults. I pointed this out. Unfortunately, the system of morality he espouses is based on who is doing it, not what is being done. I just had a discussion with him about the Midianite genocide (where every man, woman and child except for 32,000 female virgins were killed). He attempted to justify it, of course. The thing is I know he would never DREAM of espousing any of this stuff in real life, yet why it's ok for a bunch of barbarians 2000 years ago ....
That's the "special pleading" fallacy; the notion that an argument is only valid when a particular person makes it. Not that he probably cares whether he's guilty of fallacies ...
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
see also the genocide of the Amalekites- 1 Samuel. Where God specifically orders that infants and sucklings should be killed- along with everyone else. This is 450 years after the Amalekites and Israelites last fought, with God exhorting the attack based on vengeance- that the Israelites should never forget etc etc.
The Amalekites weren't killed off, though. If you read 2 Samuel, it is an Amalekite mercenary who brings the news of Saul's death to David. Their country may have been conquered, but the Amalekites were not wiped out.
Also, how does "Harass the Midianites, and defeat them" translate to genocide? Sounds more like guerilla warfare, possibly taking over their nation, but not genocide. It would be very unusual for Moses to kill all the Midianites, since he was the son-in-law of the Priest of Midian. Oops, never mind, found Chapter 31, although my Bible says this is most likely mistranslated and is supposed to be the Moabites, but your point still stands. This may well be a war between two rival tribes that later had religious significance attributed to it, but I will concede your point that a literalist reading would cause the Hebrew tribes at that time to have committed genocide against the Midianites, however unlikely that was given Moses' personal history.
Stanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
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