This guy is hilarious...

[VT-16]

Sorry if this is the wrong thread, move it to HoS or something if you find it neccessary.

Below is one of many posts made by a guy calling himself ch1466 on the IMDB boards. He goes into these longwinded essay-rants about the horror that SW has become. Now this douche-bag apparantly knows alot of military stuff (at least enought to fill his pretentious posts with acronyms from time to time).

I admitted to him that I´m not nearly as knowledgeable as he seemed to be, and tried to direct him towards this board, where he´d get more interesting debates, instead of a bunch of movie-geeks who hardly knows what he´s talking about. Anyway, time will tell if he dares enter a forum where people can actually out-debate him...

This thread was called "What's with the 18th century style battle at the end?"

ANSWER: The Jedi Of Course.

They are and always have been the weakest link in GL's Space Opera.

Let me break it down for you:

1. Sun Tzu Says.
If you know yourself as you know your enemy you /may/ dominate him on the battlefield. But the /greatest warrior/ is one who knows the REASONS why his enemy fights and thus (through espionage and manipulation) defeats him BEFORE there can be conflict.
i.e. If you are precognitive, you should be able to duck an engagement that is almost 100% certain to kill you. As the Arena Battle showed with something like 300-400 dead Jedi. The Flanneled One's excuse being that "The Shroud Of The Dark Side Occludes Their Vision."

Belch.

2. Rate Of Fire vs. Linear Spatial Occupation.
i.e. Saber on Blaster Battles suck. Because either the enemy can't shoot worth a darn. Or their weapons must be made incredibly slow ROF'd and inaccurate. Slow enough in fact that a blade moving at all of perhaps 60-90mph can intersect-deflect and occasionally even relfect back magnetic bottled plasma bolts moving at a significant fraction of Light Speed. Using our-world analogues for LOGIC as much as physics:
If you fire ten bolts in a single seconds' trigger pull and 3 of those are on target, /whether you die or not/ so too will the Jedi. Because the best he can hope for is to 'line up' his blade with a pair of inbound bolts. Ignoring #3. And eating it.
A _much_ superior means of fighting blaster weapons was suggested in Ep.V wherein Vader blocked Han's shots before extracting-from-hand his weapon. Even in Ep. 2 there was a similar event wherein Yoda was 'just standing there' as a bolt came in to the troop compartment of his gunship and this four foot long segment of ravening energy...simply disappeared.
In this sense, a Jedi who 'kept his guard up' (i.e. concentrated on it with little or no saber-dance blade shennanigans) could make anyth NUMBER of shooter's bolts that he could 'visualize' just //SNAP!// blink out of existence on this plane. Both differentiating the skill from conventional deflector shields (where they are scattered and blocked in an annihilative fashion) and making it clear that he could become vulnerable to shooters in his flanks or rear.
This is not technically a fault of the Prequelogy, but rather an abortion of Ep.IV and onwards.
Indeed, if Lucas had had an operative brain cell in his skull he would have /ignored/ the OT and simply used the Master/Padawn relationship like a shieldmate system from greco-roman times.

3. Rate Of Advance vs. Man In The Loop.
It's pretty clear that Lucas wants to avoid 'superman' mechanizing the Jedi into just another killing machine but I think he has gone waaaaaay to far into the fairy lands of wussdom.
Specifically, SPEED. You saw Quigon and Obi Wan /really move/ in the opening battle of Ep.1 And I 'instantly' thought "Ho yeah!" These are REAL Jedi. Jedi who have a _contempt of engagement_ in fighting a superior foe to a useless standstill and instead use superior agility, both mental and physical, to shape and control the battlefield. Except they don't.
Because they are shown too much as being 'duelists', obsessed with both personal fights and the notion that battling other 'bad guy' Force Users are the ultimate reason for their own existence (a dangerous place to go when the obvious conclusion is that the universe could get along without either one).
Then you have the Arena fight. Where the SIMPLEST way to end the damn battle before it began (rather than sitting their gesticulating with your outmoded lumalight as your friends sit surrounded by 6-7 Destroyers, about to be ventilated) is to jump out onto the floor. Form a shield wall around the hostages. And jump BACK out, with them in tow. Daring any moron robo-doberman to follow.
And of course, never one to rise above my expectations, GL ensured that they didn't.
Reason?
I like to call it the "The littlest as much as least common denominator" excuse. In that Yoda has to come in, on the back of an atomic elephant no less, and use conventional firepower to save ALL the Jedi's bacon.
And who performs this rescue? Why, (tooot-tooo-tooo-TOOO!) It's The Cavalry!
Except it's not. Which of course blows the themic identity (itself a repeat of Ewoks and Jawas etc.) right out of the water. Because the Air Mobile/Air Assaul _Infantry_ are simply using the power of an initial gunship pass to 'win the day' while the overwhelming threat number of droids is basically not even acknowledged in the post battle 3P0 scene which shows a largely denuded (say vacant) Arena.
And so the Jedi are saved, not by men but by technology. And even the scenic feel of the aftermath is that of "Ainh, not that big a deal...(if they had just fought correctly)"
Yet the combination of these two HUMAN characters, along with the highly counterintuitive 'assumption of leadership by the rescued-inferior force' is now made to rule the nature of the followup battlefield.
Wherein you have infantry dropping into a deep mechanized defensive belt for no apparent reason EXCEPT that they cannot walk any distance. And the enemy moves across it at a constant lope of 25mph for the droids and 50+ for the biwheel 'armored cars' which would make digging in a perilously shortlived process anyway.
Jedi would not fight here. At least they would not be a part of the final 'OK Corral' faceoff scenario wherein hundreds of bolts are flying through the air, both ways. And indeed they are entirely absent from those scenes.
Indicating that FINALLY both the ROF (Before ANH yet faster firing!) and perhaps accuracy have come up to real-world standards.

Other things to think about:
1. Walkers In Snow= No. No. NO!
The only reason you put legs on a vehicle is if the terrain is so broken or the payload so slung-large as to require each step to find purchase as much as translation while providing a constant clearance. Tires and particularly tracks not only move with the speed of rotary mechanization. But also a _much_ greater distribution of weight-over-area. Which means you can move over rather than plunge through the mires and morasses.
2. Ten Speeds Wheels On A BMX.
Of course shifting to wheels is what happens (sorta) in Ep.2 but only for the droids and /look at them/. They have the narrowness of a plowshare and would likely eat into the dirt for that very reason. NOT what you would want to be driving around in, even before aksing questions about canted axle loadings and steering.
3. Forget 'The Force'.
Wherefore the Financing? I can see the Clone Troops. But I can't see a battlefleet. And assault craft. And miniwalkers. And giant plodding, 'Atomic Annie' assault guns. HOW? What yutz of the Republic GAO managed to MISS THE BILLIONS OF CREDITS INVOLVED? Duhhhhhhhhh.
4. Air Mech into Armor Country
Again, the notion that you would set into place 10-15mph behemoths from beneath the wings of large CH-54 Skycrane type lifters in a battlefield dominated by these fast moving terminators is asking an awful lot of audience SOD. If you HAVE mech. You generally want to all pile in and /drive/ to the battlefield from far enough away that nobody screws with the landing zones. And you want to do so _quickly_ because maintaining initiative in the marshalling-to-maneuver-to-contact period is about never being caught flat footed inbetween. Instead, again, the only thing you can justify both intial close-in placement and rate of advance of the Republic Forces in comparison with is the humans. And particularly the Jedi who are 'supposed to lead this mess'. Even though they have presently shown themselves to be utterly incompetent warriors.
5. No NGS?
Supplying Naval Gunfire Support from ORBIT is where I would anticipate seeing the protostardestroyers operating most efficaciously. Setting down on 'giant tricycle' landing gear and indeed the /very notion/ of bringing these ships into atmosphere to just 'hover about' is moronic.
6. Toylike Gunships.
The _Alien_ Dropship is /beautiful/. Squat and Bulky like an A-10. Yet functionally elegant like a CH-53 Stallion. All the while being 'composite' enough in it's layered shapes be a natural for a Star Wars universe with mechanical rather than fluid design. The Gunship is just clumsy. It appears to have little room for realistice engines. It has bulbous turrets all over yet doesn't seem to fire any but the forward ones and then only 'as plotline convenient' against surface targets. It's skids are also it's troopdoors. It's interior seems 'blank' as much as open (again, no realistic mechanization of fuel or weapons or electronics components. Heck, even it's 'missile launchers' appear to be nothing but blanked off battleship guns with an impossible-to-load TOPSIDE rotary magazine.
7. Yoda is Dork.
First he is too geriatric-slow to be cripping his way into the command center OR earning the respect of the men who would nominally just pick him up and jog there. Second, if you drop something with AT LEAST the mass of an Aircraft Carrier (say 100,000dwt) into the dirt, OF COURSE you will create an earthquake like 'ripple' and in doing so, this 6-8 foot tall liquefaction of the seismic impact resonance will break the ankles if not the hips of EVERYONE in it's way. Probably as a function of tossing them 10-15ft or more up in the air. Moron. Lastly, In fighting Dooku, I find it exceptionally 'convenient' that not only does the little green toad fail to finish the fight in preference for saving to of the most /worthless/ Jedi ever to bear the name. But he somehow arrives without a company of troops or even orders to his pilot 'to block off the hangar exit'. THIS being the time to show a strafing run by Geonosian fighters, if ever, because there is simply no excuse for what is less an act of precognition than of simple warriors instinct (backup upon backup upon...).

CONCLUSION:
GL never had half the grip on this 'magnificent storyline' he claimed to. ANH was clumsy but had hope. TESB was full of timing errors but had dramatic characterization and scene control. Like a "Whole 'nother person was doing it!".
Because they were, both in writing and directing. ROTJ was the beginning of the Kiddy Films and wherein the Jedi concept /really/ fell down as a full fledged character mode. Both philosophically and for-teeth.
Everything since has basically been leftover trash waiting for another gust of wind to pick it up and toss it about in a new 'reinvention as self referentialism' combinant grouping which, when it lands, remains garbage.

Let me just remind you that this is on a board where the usual standard for posts lie in the "OMG SW is so cool/SW iz teh Sux, yo!"

[Stofsk]

He's right about most of what he writes. The Arena was embarrasing, the Jedi in TPM were incredible while 10 years later everyone else we see appears to be incompetent. I never liked Walkers, even if the AT-AT looks fearsome. I love saber vs blaster battles, but he's right: there is only so many bolts you can deflect before the one with your name on it hits you. Having the Acclamator land wasn't a good move in my opinion, and he's right: why should a space-based warship land on a planet? That's why dropships were invented. And I despised Yoda in AOTC, because they purposely made him a rediculous caricature in order to show us 'whiz-bang! Yoda can fight!' special effects that we could do without.

He may be a douchebag, but if you ignore the petty tirade some of his points make sense.

[VT-16]

I saw the Acclamator being compared to an amphibious assault ship, that delivers helicopters and other vehicles. In that case they make sense. The Clone-army´s objective seemed to be to capture as many people and buildings as they could, not destroy everything in sight. Otherwise, the Accs main guns would have demolished the planet from orbit.

And the Jedi have been weakened by the Dark Side, this is said explisitly in the movie. They´re not what they once were.

He may be a douchebag, but if you ignore the petty tirade some of his points make sense.

You should see the post where he mocks the Vader´s father-reveal in ESB. I lost him completely after that.

His choice of discussion board reeks of desperation, why not choose a board where people with comparable knowledge participate? His wording also serves as flame-bait. I´m positive he realizes this...

[Stofsk]

I saw the Acclamator being compared to an amphibious assault ship, that delivers helicopters and other vehicles. In that case they make sense.

In the context of SW supertech, where such a gigantic ship actually CAN land and take off again, sure. In general though, I remain dubious. At least the ISD remains in space where it belongs.

The Clone-army´s objective seemed to be to capture as many people and buildings as they could, not destroy everything in sight. Otherwise, the Accs main guns would have demolished the planet from orbit.

Well... no. In orbit the Acclamators could have provided orbital bombardment with toned down guns (and we know their turbolasers are variable in power settings). They don't need to conduct a BDZ on Geonosis simply because they're in orbit.

And the Jedi have been weakened by the Dark Side, this is said explisitly in the movie. They´re not what they once were.

I know this. But "Dark side weakens Jedi powers" != incompetent leadership. What happened in the arena was as much to do with improper tactics and deficient organisation as it was to do with limited Jedi powers.

You should see the post where he mocks the Vader´s father-reveal in ESB. I lost him completely after that.

Well, I did call him a douchebag.

His wording also serves as flame-bait. I´m positive he realizes this...

No doubt.

[VT-16]

What happened in the arena was as much to do with improper tactics and deficient organisation as it was to do with limited Jedi powers.

Yes. This is very true. They fucked up.

However he seems to think they should have had über-ultra powers and use them indiscriminatly. That´s where I disagree. Yet he keeps harping on and on about it...

[Vympel]

George Lucas fully admits the Jedi are arrogant in AOTC. I guess the douche bag missed that.

[Stofsk]

George Lucas fully admits the Jedi are arrogant in AOTC.

"Oh shit no. Say it ain't so! Next you'll be telling me the Oscar's are political..."

It's not so much a matter of The Flanneled One saying it as it is simply seeing it. They ooze arrogance out of their pores like sweat. Apparently, the powers of observation are beyond this douchebag's reach.

[Darth Wong]

ANSWER: The Jedi Of Course.

They are and always have been the weakest link in GL's Space Opera.

Let me break it down for you:

1. Sun Tzu Says.
If you know yourself as you know your enemy you /may/ dominate him on the battlefield. But the /greatest warrior/ is one who knows the REASONS why his enemy fights and thus (through espionage and manipulation) defeats him BEFORE there can be conflict.
i.e. If you are precognitive, you should be able to duck an engagement that is almost 100% certain to kill you. As the Arena Battle showed with something like 300-400 dead Jedi. The Flanneled One's excuse being that "The Shroud Of The Dark Side Occludes Their Vision."

Belch.

How about the fact that they're like US marshalls, not soldiers? Does that not occur to him? If you took the average police officer and told him to command an army unit or conduct a military operation, what do you think would happen?

2. Rate Of Fire vs. Linear Spatial Occupation.
i.e. Saber on Blaster Battles suck. Because either the enemy can't shoot worth a darn. Or their weapons must be made incredibly slow ROF'd and inaccurate. Slow enough in fact that a blade moving at all of perhaps 60-90mph can intersect-deflect and occasionally even relfect back magnetic bottled plasma bolts moving at a significant fraction of Light Speed. Using our-world analogues for LOGIC as much as physics:
If you fire ten bolts in a single seconds' trigger pull and 3 of those are on target, /whether you die or not/ so too will the Jedi. Because the best he can hope for is to 'line up' his blade with a pair of inbound bolts. Ignoring #3. And eating it.

Has he produced calculations to show what the limits are for the relationship between incoming ROF and lightsabre blade velocity? Or is he basing this argument on "gut feeling"?

A _much_ superior means of fighting blaster weapons was suggested in Ep.V wherein Vader blocked Han's shots before extracting-from-hand his weapon. Even in Ep. 2 there was a similar event wherein Yoda was 'just standing there' as a bolt came in to the troop compartment of his gunship and this four foot long segment of ravening energy...simply disappeared.

So why does he assume that no other Jedi in the battle ever does this? And does he notice that most of the Jedi actually DIE during this battle? He jumps up and down like a petulant child saying "they should be getting killed", as if he doesn't notice that this is indeed what happens.

In this sense, a Jedi who 'kept his guard up' (i.e. concentrated on it with little or no saber-dance blade shennanigans) could make anyth NUMBER of shooter's bolts that he could 'visualize' just //SNAP!// blink out of existence on this plane. Both differentiating the skill from conventional deflector shields (where they are scattered and blocked in an annihilative fashion) and making it clear that he could become vulnerable to shooters in his flanks or rear.

Why does he assume that Jedi don't tire if they overuse their abilities, particularly when those abilities are limited?

This is not technically a fault of the Prequelogy, but rather an abortion of Ep.IV and onwards.
Indeed, if Lucas had had an operative brain cell in his skull he would have /ignored/ the OT and simply used the Master/Padawn relationship like a shieldmate system from greco-roman times.

GL spent time explaining that the Jedi had become arrogant and overconfident, not to mention explaining that they're not really soldiers. I don't see why this person would give the superficial appearance of having paid so much attention to the movies when he apparently didn't notice this.

3. Rate Of Advance vs. Man In The Loop.
It's pretty clear that Lucas wants to avoid 'superman' mechanizing the Jedi into just another killing machine but I think he has gone waaaaaay to far into the fairy lands of wussdom.
Specifically, SPEED. You saw Quigon and Obi Wan /really move/ in the opening battle of Ep.1 And I 'instantly' thought "Ho yeah!" These are REAL Jedi. Jedi who have a _contempt of engagement_ in fighting a superior foe to a useless standstill and instead use superior agility, both mental and physical, to shape and control the battlefield. Except they don't.
Because they are shown too much as being 'duelists', obsessed with both personal fights and the notion that battling other 'bad guy' Force Users are the ultimate reason for their own existence (a dangerous place to go when the obvious conclusion is that the universe could get along without either one).

Given the fact that an unopposed Dark Force user could simply mow through human opponents at great distances by simply killing them with telekinesis, it is hardly unreasonable for Jedi to concentrate their efforts on them.

Then you have the Arena fight. Where the SIMPLEST way to end the damn battle before it began (rather than sitting their gesticulating with your outmoded lumalight as your friends sit surrounded by 6-7 Destroyers, about to be ventilated) is to jump out onto the floor. Form a shield wall around the hostages. And jump BACK out, with them in tow. Daring any moron robo-doberman to follow.

A "shield wall"? While a powerful Jedi may be able to block the occasional bolt, there is no evidence at all that a group of Jedi would be able to block heavy concentrated blasterfire for any duration. This moron is now claiming that the Jedi should have all clustered in one place, thus allowing the battledroids to concentrate all their fire (including their heavy weapon emplacement fire). This is moronic.

And of course, never one to rise above my expectations, GL ensured that they didn't.
Reason?
I like to call it the "The littlest as much as least common denominator" excuse. In that Yoda has to come in, on the back of an atomic elephant no less, and use conventional firepower to save ALL the Jedi's bacon.
And who performs this rescue? Why, (tooot-tooo-tooo-TOOO!) It's The Cavalry!
Except it's not. Which of course blows the themic identity (itself a repeat of Ewoks and Jawas etc.) right out of the water. Because the Air Mobile/Air Assaul _Infantry_ are simply using the power of an initial gunship pass to 'win the day' while the overwhelming threat number of droids is basically not even acknowledged in the post battle 3P0 scene which shows a largely denuded (say vacant) Arena.

What the fuck is he talking about? The overwhelming number of droids are blown away by the gunships when they drop down into the arena, and why is it bad to have the cavalry come riding in to the rescue?

And so the Jedi are saved, not by men but by technology. And even the scenic feel of the aftermath is that of "Ainh, not that big a deal...(if they had just fought correctly)"

In short, he's complaining that AOTC does not sufficiently wank on the Jedi powers. He sounds like a comic fan-whore who wants the Jedi to be wanked like Dragonball Z.

Yet the combination of these two HUMAN characters, along with the highly counterintuitive 'assumption of leadership by the rescued-inferior force' is now made to rule the nature of the followup battlefield.

See above.

Wherein you have infantry dropping into a deep mechanized defensive belt for no apparent reason EXCEPT that they cannot walk any distance. And the enemy moves across it at a constant lope of 25mph for the droids and 50+ for the biwheel 'armored cars' which would make digging in a perilously shortlived process anyway.
Jedi would not fight here. At least they would not be a part of the final 'OK Corral' faceoff scenario wherein hundreds of bolts are flying through the air, both ways. And indeed they are entirely absent from those scenes.
Indicating that FINALLY both the ROF (Before ANH yet faster firing!) and perhaps accuracy have come up to real-world standards.

He's simply wrong. The few surviving Jedi in this battle can be seen, and what they're generally doing is leading columns of clonetroopers and trying to block incoming blaster fire at range. He's arguing that the Jedi should have been killed in the arena and they're basically absent now, even though most of the Jedi WERE killed in the arena and the few survivors are NOT absent now. Did he bother watching the movie?

Other things to think about:
1. Walkers In Snow= No. No. NO!
The only reason you put legs on a vehicle is if the terrain is so broken or the payload so slung-large as to require each step to find purchase as much as translation while providing a constant clearance. Tires and particularly tracks not only move with the speed of rotary mechanization. But also a _much_ greater distribution of weight-over-area. Which means you can move over rather than plunge through the mires and morasses.

True, walkers in sci-fi are a bit of a brainbug. Having said that, with line-of-sight weapons firing from the horizon you actually WANT a very tall vehicle in order to increase your artillery range, and they probably intended these things to be able to operate in a ridiculous variety of environments which are more varied than what you'd find in, say, Iraq.

2. Ten Speeds Wheels On A BMX.
Of course shifting to wheels is what happens (sorta) in Ep.2 but only for the droids and /look at them/. They have the narrowness of a plowshare and would likely eat into the dirt for that very reason. NOT what you would want to be driving around in, even before aksing questions about canted axle loadings and steering.

Yes, the Hailfire droids look silly. Congratulations for having the keen perception to notice.

3. Forget 'The Force'.
Wherefore the Financing? I can see the Clone Troops. But I can't see a battlefleet. And assault craft. And miniwalkers. And giant plodding, 'Atomic Annie' assault guns. HOW? What yutz of the Republic GAO managed to MISS THE BILLIONS OF CREDITS INVOLVED? Duhhhhhhhhh.

This guy is an imbecile; the Republic is monstrous; the cost of food shipments to Coruscant in a week would utterly dwarf the money that was used to construct this army over 10 years.

4. Air Mech into Armor Country
Again, the notion that you would set into place 10-15mph behemoths from beneath the wings of large CH-54 Skycrane type lifters in a battlefield dominated by these fast moving terminators is asking an awful lot of audience SOD. If you HAVE mech. You generally want to all pile in and /drive/ to the battlefield from far enough away that nobody screws with the landing zones. And you want to do so _quickly_ because maintaining initiative in the marshalling-to-maneuver-to-contact period is about never being caught flat footed inbetween. Instead, again, the only thing you can justify both intial close-in placement and rate of advance of the Republic Forces in comparison with is the humans. And particularly the Jedi who are 'supposed to lead this mess'. Even though they have presently shown themselves to be utterly incompetent warriors.

Since these particular mechs are combat-effective within 1 second of landing, unlike a modern tank being unloaded from a boat, I don't see how this is a problem. The whole Republic army is like a paratrooper army, hence the use of light air-deployable mechs instead of big ones like the AT-AT. They drop down ready to fight.

5. No NGS?
Supplying Naval Gunfire Support from ORBIT is where I would anticipate seeing the protostardestroyers operating most efficaciously. Setting down on 'giant tricycle' landing gear and indeed the /very notion/ of bringing these ships into atmosphere to just 'hover about' is moronic.

These vehicles are transports; they have to drop into the atmosphere to unload their cargo. And the feasibility of orbital fire support depends on whether the ships were actually designed to be capable of reducing their turbolaser fire yields to the point where they would not simply obliterate the whole area, which happens to be right next to a civilian population.

6. Toylike Gunships.
The _Alien_ Dropship is /beautiful/. Squat and Bulky like an A-10. Yet functionally elegant like a CH-53 Stallion. All the while being 'composite' enough in it's layered shapes be a natural for a Star Wars universe with mechanical rather than fluid design.

What Alien dropship is he talking about?

The Gunship is just clumsy. It appears to have little room for realistice engines. It has bulbous turrets all over yet doesn't seem to fire any but the forward ones and then only 'as plotline convenient' against surface targets. It's skids are also it's troopdoors. It's interior seems 'blank' as much as open (again, no realistic mechanization of fuel or weapons or electronics components. Heck, even it's 'missile launchers' appear to be nothing but blanked off battleship guns with an impossible-to-load TOPSIDE rotary magazine.

He doesn't understand why a repulsorlift vehicle lacks what he would consider to be "realistic engines?" Is he on drugs? And why is its topside magazine impossible to load? It's obviously loaded by some mechanism on the Acclamators, not by a guy with a handcart. As for the gunships not firing, that's simply not true. But they do appear to expend their ammunition pretty quickly.

7. Yoda is Dork.
First he is too geriatric-slow to be cripping his way into the command center OR earning the respect of the men who would nominally just pick him up and jog there.

Now that's just fucking stupid; if a real-life general walked with a cane, I doubt a soldier would pick him up in a fireman's carry and run with him.

Second, if you drop something with AT LEAST the mass of an Aircraft Carrier (say 100,000dwt) into the dirt, OF COURSE you will create an earthquake like 'ripple' and in doing so, this 6-8 foot tall liquefaction of the seismic impact resonance will break the ankles if not the hips of EVERYONE in it's way. Probably as a function of tossing them 10-15ft or more up in the air. Moron.

Interesting argument. How does he come up with these figures? And what the fuck is a "seismic impact resonance?" There's nothing resonant about a seismic shock. If he's going to argue that the ground shifts up by "6 to 8 feet" so quickly in a radius of many kilometres that it breaks bones, he should present his calculations.

Lastly, In fighting Dooku, I find it exceptionally 'convenient' that not only does the little green toad fail to finish the fight in preference for saving to of the most /worthless/ Jedi ever to bear the name. But he somehow arrives without a company of troops or even orders to his pilot 'to block off the hangar exit'. THIS being the time to show a strafing run by Geonosian fighters, if ever, because there is simply no excuse for what is less an act of precognition than of simple warriors instinct (backup upon backup upon...).

Another repetition of his wrong-headed notion that Jedi must have military training. And his pilot has no fucking ammo (which is why he gets shot down, although this guy didn't seem to notice), so what's he supposed to do? Block off the hangar exit by just hovering in front of it until he's blown away?

CONCLUSION:
GL never had half the grip on this 'magnificent storyline' he claimed to. ANH was clumsy but had hope. TESB was full of timing errors but had dramatic characterization and scene control. Like a "Whole 'nother person was doing it!".
Because they were, both in writing and directing. ROTJ was the beginning of the Kiddy Films and wherein the Jedi concept /really/ fell down as a full fledged character mode. Both philosophically and for-teeth.
Everything since has basically been leftover trash waiting for another gust of wind to pick it up and toss it about in a new 'reinvention as self referentialism' combinant grouping which, when it lands, remains garbage.

Yeah, I get it. He doesn't like Star Wars. And like most self-appointed critics, he tries to elevate what is obviously a subjective taste issue into a logical one, even though most of his criticisms are based on hopelessly stupid mis-readings of the situation.

[Vympel]

What Alien dropship is he talking about?

The one from Aliens, I think. I'm not too impressed in some guy dissing the coolest prequel vehicle yet made, especially when LAAT was inspired by the Mi-24 HIND, but his moron subjective tastes are his own.

His Jedi-wank tendencies are clear- jump back OUT of the Arena? To fucking where? Since when are force jumps that powerful, and even if they are, who says they can all do it?

[Darth Wong]

What Alien dropship is he talking about?

The one from Aliens, I think. I'm not too impressed in some guy dissing the coolest prequel vehicle yet made, especially when LAAT was inspired by the Mi-24 HIND, but his moron subjective tastes are his own.

Well that's fucking retarded; the Alien dropship looks kind of cool but it's got those goofy fold-out weapon pods and has no more claim on "realistic" propulsion technology or internal equipment space than the LAAT does, particularly since it lacks repulsorlift technology so it must hover using sheer thrust, not to mention being able to achieve orbit; the thing should be mostly fuel if we want to be "realistic" about this.

His Jedi-wank tendencies are clear- jump back OUT of the Arena? To fucking where? Since when are force jumps that powerful, and even if they are, who says they can all do it?

That was stupid, but his "form a shield wall" idea in the centre of the arena is even more stupid. Yeah, let's give the enemy one nice big fat juicy target to concentrate fire on! There's no way this guy has a legitimate military background; he obviously got that idea from watching Russell Crowe in "Gladiator" (the mock "Fall of Carthage" scene), and he's using acronyms to create an illusion of military expertise. All modern soldiers should have an instinctive aversion to bunching up like that.

[Mange]

Well, Mike, I hope that moron sees your excellent rebuttal now that VT-16 directed him here.

[Praxis]

ANSWER: The Jedi Of Course.

They are and always have been the weakest link in GL's Space Opera.

Let me break it down for you:

1. Sun Tzu Says.
If you know yourself as you know your enemy you /may/ dominate him on the battlefield. But the /greatest warrior/ is one who knows the REASONS why his enemy fights and thus (through espionage and manipulation) defeats him BEFORE there can be conflict.
i.e. If you are precognitive, you should be able to duck an engagement that is almost 100% certain to kill you. As the Arena Battle showed with something like 300-400 dead Jedi. The Flanneled One's excuse being that "The Shroud Of The Dark Side Occludes Their Vision."

Belch.

2. Rate Of Fire vs. Linear Spatial Occupation.
i.e. Saber on Blaster Battles suck. Because either the enemy can't shoot worth a darn. Or their weapons must be made incredibly slow ROF'd and inaccurate. Slow enough in fact that a blade moving at all of perhaps 60-90mph can intersect-deflect and occasionally even relfect back magnetic bottled plasma bolts moving at a significant fraction of Light Speed. Using our-world analogues for LOGIC as much as physics:
If you fire ten bolts in a single seconds' trigger pull and 3 of those are on target, /whether you die or not/ so too will the Jedi. Because the best he can hope for is to 'line up' his blade with a pair of inbound bolts. Ignoring #3. And eating it.
A _much_ superior means of fighting blaster weapons was suggested in Ep.V wherein Vader blocked Han's shots before extracting-from-hand his weapon. Even in Ep. 2 there was a similar event wherein Yoda was 'just standing there' as a bolt came in to the troop compartment of his gunship and this four foot long segment of ravening energy...simply disappeared.
In this sense, a Jedi who 'kept his guard up' (i.e. concentrated on it with little or no saber-dance blade shennanigans) could make anyth NUMBER of shooter's bolts that he could 'visualize' just //SNAP!// blink out of existence on this plane. Both differentiating the skill from conventional deflector shields (where they are scattered and blocked in an annihilative fashion) and making it clear that he could become vulnerable to shooters in his flanks or rear.
This is not technically a fault of the Prequelogy, but rather an abortion of Ep.IV and onwards.
Indeed, if Lucas had had an operative brain cell in his skull he would have /ignored/ the OT and simply used the Master/Padawn relationship like a shieldmate system from greco-roman times.

I find this hilarious (above).

He goes on to make a big complaint about how Jedi are precognitive and should have been able to avoid the battle, then goes on to complain how blaster bolts are slow if a Jedi can deflect them. ROFL! Does this guy even think? Maybe they can block the bolts...BECAUSE THEY'RE PRECOGNITIVE and know where the bolts are going to COME?

Other things to think about:
1. Walkers In Snow= No. No. NO!
The only reason you put legs on a vehicle is if the terrain is so broken or the payload so slung-large as to require each step to find purchase as much as translation while providing a constant clearance. Tires and particularly tracks not only move with the speed of rotary mechanization. But also a _much_ greater distribution of weight-over-area. Which means you can move over rather than plunge through the mires and morasses.

Ah, so you find the location of a Rebel base, and you're gonna stop, go to the nearest shipyard, request some repulsorlift vehicles, wait a bit for them to be brought to you, wait a bit for them to be loaded on your ships, THEN attack?

No, you're going to attack immediately. Unfortunately for Vader, he didn't have any repulsorlift vehicles at the time, but oh well- it worked.

3. Forget 'The Force'.
Wherefore the Financing? I can see the Clone Troops. But I can't see a battlefleet. And assault craft. And miniwalkers. And giant plodding, 'Atomic Annie' assault guns. HOW? What yutz of the Republic GAO managed to MISS THE BILLIONS OF CREDITS INVOLVED? Duhhhhhhhhh.

Do you really think that in a galactic republic with millions/billions of worlds...that that army there was really that big? They probably coulda built that whole army at just ONE shipyard.

4. Air Mech into Armor Country
Again, the notion that you would set into place 10-15mph behemoths from beneath the wings of large CH-54 Skycrane type lifters in a battlefield dominated by these fast moving terminators is asking an awful lot of audience SOD. If you HAVE mech. You generally want to all pile in and /drive/ to the battlefield from far enough away that nobody screws with the landing zones. And you want to do so _quickly_ because maintaining initiative in the marshalling-to-maneuver-to-contact period is about never being caught flat footed inbetween. Instead, again, the only thing you can justify both intial close-in placement and rate of advance of the Republic Forces in comparison with is the humans. And particularly the Jedi who are 'supposed to lead this mess'. Even though they have presently shown themselves to be utterly incompetent warriors.

Or perhaps Star Wars vehicles are extremely sturdy/well built/ have powerful repulsorlifts to counteract the weight?

5. No NGS?
Supplying Naval Gunfire Support from ORBIT is where I would anticipate seeing the protostardestroyers operating most efficaciously. Setting down on 'giant tricycle' landing gear and indeed the /very notion/ of bringing these ships into atmosphere to just 'hover about' is moronic.

For all we know, several were engaged in orbit.

6. Toylike Gunships.
The _Alien_ Dropship is /beautiful/. Squat and Bulky like an A-10. Yet functionally elegant like a CH-53 Stallion. All the while being 'composite' enough in it's layered shapes be a natural for a Star Wars universe with mechanical rather than fluid design. The Gunship is just clumsy. It appears to have little room for realistice engines. It has bulbous turrets all over yet doesn't seem to fire any but the forward ones and then only 'as plotline convenient' against surface targets. It's skids are also it's troopdoors. It's interior seems 'blank' as much as open (again, no realistic mechanization of fuel or weapons or electronics components. Heck, even it's 'missile launchers' appear to be nothing but blanked off battleship guns with an impossible-to-load TOPSIDE rotary magazine.

So what? Realistic engines? This is SCIFI. Don't you think the engines might be able to be a bit smaller than modern day?

7. Yoda is Dork.
First he is too geriatric-slow to be cripping his way into the command center OR earning the respect of the men who would nominally just pick him up and jog there. Second, if you drop something with AT LEAST the mass of an Aircraft Carrier (say 100,000dwt) into the dirt, OF COURSE you will create an earthquake like 'ripple' and in doing so, this 6-8 foot tall liquefaction of the seismic impact resonance will break the ankles if not the hips of EVERYONE in it's way. Probably as a function of tossing them 10-15ft or more up in the air. Moron. Lastly, In fighting Dooku, I find it exceptionally 'convenient' that not only does the little green toad fail to finish the fight in preference for saving to of the most /worthless/ Jedi ever to bear the name. But he somehow arrives without a company of troops or even orders to his pilot 'to block off the hangar exit'. THIS being the time to show a strafing run by Geonosian fighters, if ever, because there is simply no excuse for what is less an act of precognition than of simple warriors instinct (backup upon backup upon...).

Guess you don't understand the power of the force.


Hilarious writeup

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

What Alien dropship is he talking about?

The one from Aliens, I think. I'm not too impressed in some guy dissing the coolest prequel vehicle yet made, especially when LAAT was inspired by the Mi-24 HIND, but his moron subjective tastes are his own.

Well that's fucking retarded; the Alien dropship looks kind of cool but it's got those goofy fold-out weapon pods and has no more claim on "realistic" propulsion technology or internal equipment space than the LAAT does, particularly since it lacks repulsorlift technology so it must hover using sheer thrust, not to mention being able to achieve orbit; the thing should be mostly fuel if we want to be "realistic" about this.

The way I read it, it seemed he was talking about the spherical Trade Fed dropships.

[Kurgan]

Even in Ep. 2 there was a similar event wherein Yoda was 'just standing there' as a bolt came in to the troop compartment of his gunship and this four foot long segment of ravening energy...simply disappeared.
In this sense, a Jedi who 'kept his guard up' (i.e. concentrated on it with little or no saber-dance blade shennanigans) could make anyth NUMBER of shooter's bolts that he could 'visualize' just //SNAP!// blink out of existence on this plane.

Is he talking about the scene where they are in a LAAT and those shots are "exploding" (what some called "Flak Bursts" and others called "Shield Interactions", I happen to side with the latter)? Maybe he thought that was Yoda or other Jedi "stopping" the blasts like Vader? Interesting theory, but who here would agree with it?

He could be referring to Dooku's lightnening, but that wasn't in the "troop compartment of his gunship."

About Yoda coming in, that's a good point.

Basically we're assuming that the first LAAT drops off Obi-Wan and Anakin, then it gets blown up (troops and all, remember that Padme and one trooper dropped out earlier so they survived). Then later another LAAT drops off only Yoda, then gets blown up (by those same Geonosian fighters that were guarding Dooku's speeder bike, that were just hanging around guarding the entrance until he escaped? Because when Padme finally shows up with another squad of troopers in another LAAT, they face no apparent opposition, so they can rescue the wounded Jedi and Yoda can come along...


It's good he mentioned Yoda's failure to stop Dooku. Why didn't Yoda Force Push the two Jedi out of the way and then go after the traitorous Jedi?

Or why didn't he shove the big column INTO Dooku's ship to possibly disable/destroy it? *cough*plot device*cough* ; )

[Darth Wong]

Is he talking about the scene where they are in a LAAT and those shots are "exploding" (what some called "Flak Bursts" and others called "Shield Interactions", I happen to side with the latter)? Maybe he thought that was Yoda or other Jedi "stopping" the blasts like Vader? Interesting theory, but who here would agree with it?

One can't entirely discount it, but there's certainly precious little evidence that Jedi can form large "shields" in front of themselves for any extended duration, or that they would be powerful enough to withstand the utter stupidity of clustering themselves in a tight group at the centre of the arena. They might as well have painted a bullseye on the arena floor around this proposed formation. What would our supposedly military friend call this formation anyway? A Force Testudo?

About Yoda coming in, that's a good point.

Basically we're assuming that the first LAAT drops off Obi-Wan and Anakin, then it gets blown up (troops and all, remember that Padme and one trooper dropped out earlier so they survived). Then later another LAAT drops off only Yoda, then gets blown up (by those same Geonosian fighters that were guarding Dooku's speeder bike, that were just hanging around guarding the entrance until he escaped?

Because when Padme finally shows up with another squad of troopers in another LAAT, they face no apparent opposition, so they can rescue the wounded Jedi and Yoda can come along...

Or just flew off because there was nothing else it could do. What's the chance that it would still have ammo since it appears the gunships mostly spent their ammo supporting the ground troops? Unless it was freshly resupplied, which seems doubtful if Yoda just grabbed the first one he could get.

It's good he mentioned Yoda's failure to stop Dooku. Why didn't Yoda Force Push the two Jedi out of the way and then go after the traitorous Jedi?

Or why didn't he shove the big column INTO Dooku's ship to possibly disable/destroy it? *cough*plot device*cough* ; )

It's easy to second-guess someone's actions in real-life too. Yoda went after Dooku, and reacted instinctively when he saw the column falling toward his Jedi. It's not as if he planned that out or thought about it thoroughly.

[Darth Lucifer]

GL never had half the grip on this 'magnificent storyline' he claimed to. ANH was clumsy but had hope. TESB was full of timing errors but had dramatic characterization and scene control. Like a "Whole 'nother person was doing it!"

No Doi! Really?
A "Whole 'nother person" did TESB. Irvin Kershner directed while Lucas directed ANH. Fucktard.

[Stofsk]

I want to know what he meant by 'timing' errors in ESB.

[SylasGaunt]

His Jedi-wank tendencies are clear- jump back OUT of the Arena? To fucking where? Since when are force jumps that powerful, and even if they are, who says they can all do it?

Clone Wars? *gets sacked*

And how dare he diss on the LAAT. The LAAT is IMHO the coolest vehicle in SW yet (BEAM CANNONS!)

As for the landing acclamators did he even stop and consider the kind of nastiness that puts on site all at once? Something like 16,000 troops IIRC and they aren't coming in contained in a relatively thin-skinned gunship, no they're basically dropping a fortress right on top of the position they take. One with heavy shields and armor and that can I assume put some serious hurt on anyone stupid enough to come into LOS with it if it can dial down it's TL yields sufficiently.

[Stofsk]

Clone Wars? *gets sacked*

It's odd that you mentioned the cartoon; in the comic book, the writers have tried their best to depict Jedi as vulnerable heroes rather than untouchable demigods. The Battle of Jabiim is a good example; Anakin and a few Clonetroopers were practically the only ones who survived, while Jedi masters and skilled Padawans alike were gunned down by missile strikes, massed fire, and relentless enemy forces. And the only reason why Anakin survived was because A) Palpatine desired it and B) he was ordered to retreat, so had little choice.

[SylasGaunt]

I mentioned it more as a joke than anything else rather than a serious point of discussion (for one thing Mace Windu is not just any ordinary Jedi)

[Aaron]

That was stupid, but his "form a shield wall" idea in the centre of the arena is even more stupid. Yeah, let's give the enemy one nice big fat juicy target to concentrate fire on! There's no way this guy has a legitimate military background; he obviously got that idea from watching Russell Crowe in "Gladiator" (the mock "Fall of Carthage" scene), and he's using acronyms to create an illusion of military expertise. All modern soldiers should have an instinctive aversion to bunching up like that.

Exactly. In basic training we were taught to maintain at least 5 meters distance between us at all times. Otherwise a burst froma MG or a single mortor(?) round will take out 2-3 troops.

[Kurgan]

Or just flew off because there was nothing else it could do. What's the chance that it would still have ammo since it appears the gunships mostly spent their ammo supporting the ground troops? Unless it was freshly resupplied, which seems doubtful if Yoda just grabbed the first one he could get.

True, that's another possibility. Doesn't Yoda specifically say "bring my ship"? (classic General line in war movies)

It's easy to second-guess someone's actions in real-life too. Yoda went after Dooku, and reacted instinctively when he saw the column falling toward his Jedi. It's not as if he planned that out or thought about it thoroughly.

Yeah and his precog could have been "clouded" so he didn't see the right solution in time. My theory has been we can chalk this up to Yoda's stupidity, rather than some limitation in his powers. He had the column up for awhile. A heave ho and you'd think he'd at least hamper Dooku's chances of escape a little better (unless he was putting up a "Force Wall" as he left or something). Yoda's compassion could have been his undoing. Just let the two Jedi die and keep fighting Dooku. In the original script, isn't he about to finish him off when the column gets ripped down?

I admit, it's an obvious plot device, and a classic "difference between the heroes and the villians" thing in fiction. But still. Stupid Yoda.. ; )

[Kurgan]

GL never had half the grip on this 'magnificent storyline' he claimed to. ANH was clumsy but had hope. TESB was full of timing errors but had dramatic characterization and scene control. Like a "Whole 'nother person was doing it!"

No Doi! Really?
A "Whole 'nother person" did TESB. Irvin Kershner directed while Lucas directed ANH. Fucktard.

He's being sarcastic.

[UCBooties]

Actualy, of all his points, I found the one regarding financing most interesting. I know that the Republic is emense , with taxation and logistics covering thousands upon thouands of worlds. But considering that this army is large enough and well equiped enough to save said republic... it would be interesting to know how that big a chunk of credits found its way out of the taxation pool and into the private coffers of the army's financier (though a jedi was named, I believe it to be Palpatine or a subordiante of his, any elaboration on that?).

[Darth Lucifer]

... (though a jedi was named, I believe it to be Palpatine or a subordiante of his, any elaboration on that?).

Who was that master that hadn't visited Kamino in ten years? Obi-wan kenobi and the Minister were talking about Master...somebody. Perhaps he is the person you speak of, Booties.