So, Who's Commited Genocide?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-10-23 06:11pm

Fair enough, scratch the Executor and the Endor Holocaust for the incompetence list.

spideycw · Post by **spideycw** » 2004-10-23 07:29pm

How about the Jedi/Exar Kun wiping out the Massais on Yavin IV?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-10-23 07:33pm

spideycw wrote:How about the Jedi/Exar Kun wiping out the Massais on Yavin IV?

Not sure how to score that one. I'll give it to Exar Kun at the moment, because it suited his agenda of surviving better.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-10-23 08:49pm

Kurgan wrote:Then there's the Stormtroopers wiping out those Jawas (not sure how many were in the Sandcrawler, but it looks like they killed them all)...

Nah. That was just a small clan; comparable to the eradication of Lidice in Poland during WWII, I imagine. The Empire certainly didn't go after all the Jawas-- they just targeted the individual crawler and its crew because it had had the droids aboard.

However, I could find it believable if one of the EU books had stormtroopers riding through, say, the Tatooine outback and just randomly shooting down any Jawa they came across...

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-10-23 11:14pm

you forgot to add to Darth Vader the destruction and poisoning of the planet Falleen

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-23 11:17pm

Tychu wrote:you forgot to add to Darth Vader the destruction and poisoning of the planet Falleen

Not quite Genocide given that he killed one city.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-10-23 11:30pm

yeah he destroyed one city but he poisoned the planet

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-10-24 12:10am

Vader destroyed the city to keep the planet from being fully poisoned, but this was scored in the unedited initial OP

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-24 04:52pm

The Yevethan actions during the Black Fleet Crisis were patently genocide; they set out to kill all non-Yevethan races/ethnicities in the Koornacht Cluster.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-24 06:37pm

So some of these acts are more like pogroms or ethnic cleansing, not genocide, perhaps?

Massacres of a racial/ethnic/political group.

Didn't somebody kill the Mandalorians?

Then there's the Sith, but then it isn't specified what exactly happened, only that they were wiped out due to fighting the Jedi AND fighting each other...

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-25 11:32am

Alderaan was a civilian target about as much as a military officer's uniform isn't part of the officer. Alderaan was, at that point, the head of the Alliance (ref: the radio play) and the base from which it was organizing politically, if not militarily. Alderaan had broken it's proclaimed convenant of peace and was massing militarily, partly indicated by its military-grade planetary deflector shield. To me, destroying it is analogous to bombing a home wherein soldiers have entrenched along with the civilian inhabitants of the home. That very behavior is immoral and civilian casualties incurred from an attack on a military target using a civilian shield do not, in my mind, "count" as unwarranted attacks on civilians.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-25 11:43am

McC wrote:Alderaan was a civilian target about as much as a military officer's uniform isn't part of the officer. Alderaan was, at that point, the head of the Alliance (ref: the radio play) and the base from which it was organizing politically, if not militarily. Alderaan had broken it's proclaimed convenant of peace and was massing militarily, partly indicated by its military-grade planetary deflector shield. To me, destroying it is analogous to bombing a home wherein soldiers have entrenched along with the civilian inhabitants of the home. That very behavior is immoral and civilian casualties incurred from an attack on a military target using a civilian shield do not, in my mind, "count" as unwarranted attacks on civilians.

This doesn't change that it was genocide, so I'm not sure what your point is.

That the Rebellion weren't spotless good guys without a stain on their armour? We already know that, though. But that doesn't justify the Empire's overkill.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-25 11:53am

Kurgan wrote:So some of these acts are more like pogroms or ethnic cleansing, not genocide, perhaps?

Massacres of a racial/ethnic/political group.

Ethnic cleansing is genocide, by definition. There is no distinction.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-25 12:40pm

McC wrote:Alderaan was a civilian target about as much as a military officer's uniform isn't part of the officer. Alderaan was, at that point, the head of the Alliance (ref: the radio play) and the base from which it was organizing politically, if not militarily. Alderaan had broken it's proclaimed convenant of peace and was massing militarily, partly indicated by its military-grade planetary deflector shield. To me, destroying it is analogous to bombing a home wherein soldiers have entrenched along with the civilian inhabitants of the home. That very behavior is immoral and civilian casualties incurred from an attack on a military target using a civilian shield do not, in my mind, "count" as unwarranted attacks on civilians.

By this reasoning, the entire city of Baghdad was a legitamite military target and the U.S. should have just hit it with a nuclear bomb and wiped the whole thing out instead of capturing it to get the leaders. In fact, the entire country of Iraq and all it's civilians should have just been wiped out by a nuclear strike- who cares about the civilians, it's a military target, right?

Alderaan had a miltary-grade planetary shield, just like any other world in the Empire. They DIDN'T have a huge military force or anything else massively military. Several of the leaders of the Rebellion met on Alderaan, sure, but that doesn't make the ENTIRE PLANET a legitamite target.

Wiping out an entire planet of billions to kill a small group of rebel leaders is genocide in every way.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-25 01:34pm

@Praxis/Stofsk

See Canderous's discussion of Republic tactics during the Mandalore Wars to understand my stance on this

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-10-25 01:35pm

Praxis wrote: By this reasoning, the entire city of Baghdad was a legitamite military target and the U.S. should have just hit it with a nuclear bomb and wiped the whole thing out instead of capturing it to get the leaders. In fact, the entire country of Iraq and all it's civilians should have just been wiped out by a nuclear strike- who cares about the civilians, it's a military target, right?

Sorry try agian, the city of Baghdad is NOT a military target no more than the Entire planet of Alderaan was a target, sure things IN Baghdad are targets(Weapons depots, Saddam's houses(Also are weapons depots and command and control centers, bridges)
But the entire City is NOT a target, your overgeneralising, was 100% of Alderaan over-run with Rebel propagandists and aiders? No? Was 100% of Bagdad a military target? Nope....

And yes I know thats not your position I'm just illstrating something

Wiping out an entire planet of billions to kill a small group of rebel leaders is genocide in every way.

One could aurgue that genocide must be delibrate and intentoal considering the "systmatic" part of the definition

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-25 01:47pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Praxis wrote: By this reasoning, the entire city of Baghdad was a legitamite military target and the U.S. should have just hit it with a nuclear bomb and wiped the whole thing out instead of capturing it to get the leaders. In fact, the entire country of Iraq and all it's civilians should have just been wiped out by a nuclear strike- who cares about the civilians, it's a military target, right?
Sorry try agian, the city of Baghdad is NOT a military target no more than the Entire planet of Alderaan was a target, sure things IN Baghdad are targets(Weapons depots, Saddam's houses(Also are weapons depots and command and control centers, bridges)
But the entire City is NOT a target, your overgeneralising, was 100% of Alderaan over-run with Rebel propagandists and aiders? No? Was 100% of Bagdad a military target? Nope....

And yes I know thats not your position I'm just illstrating something

Actually thats EXACTLY my point! Someone else said that Alderaan was a legitamite military target for the Empire to wipe out, and my response was above. I was trying to point out EXACTLY what you said

Their are legitamite targets in Alderaan, but the whole planet is not a target.

I'm not overgeneralizing, I'm using an analogy. Baghdad was not 100% a military target because it was MOSTLY innocent civilians- just the same, Alderaan is NOT a military target, because it was MOSTLY innocent civilians.

You just agreed with me

Maybe you missed the sarcasm...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-25 02:06pm

Tychu wrote:yeah he destroyed one city but he poisoned the planet

Read Shadows again...he sterilized the City, and contained the virus.

The reason Xizor and the Falleen hate him is because of that. The virus was never released beyond that one particular city.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-10-25 02:39pm

Praxis wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:
Praxis wrote: By this reasoning, the entire city of Baghdad was a legitamite military target and the U.S. should have just hit it with a nuclear bomb and wiped the whole thing out instead of capturing it to get the leaders. In fact, the entire country of Iraq and all it's civilians should have just been wiped out by a nuclear strike- who cares about the civilians, it's a military target, right?
Sorry try agian, the city of Baghdad is NOT a military target no more than the Entire planet of Alderaan was a target, sure things IN Baghdad are targets(Weapons depots, Saddam's houses(Also are weapons depots and command and control centers, bridges)
But the entire City is NOT a target, your overgeneralising, was 100% of Alderaan over-run with Rebel propagandists and aiders? No? Was 100% of Bagdad a military target? Nope....

And yes I know thats not your position I'm just illstrating something
Actually thats EXACTLY my point! Someone else said that Alderaan was a legitamite military target for the Empire to wipe out, and my response was above. I was trying to point out EXACTLY what you said Their are legitamite targets in Alderaan, but the whole planet is not a target.

I'm not overgeneralizing, I'm using an analogy. Baghdad was not 100% a military target because it was MOSTLY innocent civilians- just the same, Alderaan is NOT a military target, because it was MOSTLY innocent civilians.

You just agreed with me Maybe you missed the sarcasm...

for the sake of argument, could the empire break the sheild without a deathstar? and, if alderraan was prepped for a war, then its little different then carpet bombing, neh?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-10-25 04:16pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:for the sake of argument, could the empire break the sheild without a deathstar? and, if alderraan was prepped for a war, then its little different then carpet bombing, neh?

It could have, with considerably more effort. We're talking an assload of ships and most likely some torpedo spheres. I don't think it's known if Alderaan had any other defenses besides the shield, but chances are they had some sort of defense force that could at least put up token resistance and make life hard for the Imperials.

Nevermind that, though. The destruction of Alderaan was a much an elimination of a Rebel cell as it was the Empire saying, "Don't fuck with us." It was most obviously genocide.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-10-25 04:33pm

Praxis wrote: You just agreed with me Maybe you missed the sarcasm...

"Ahem"

And yes I know thats not your position I'm just illstrating something

Read the last mispelled line and think abit

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-25 04:46pm

Praxis wrote:Actually thats EXACTLY my point! Someone else said that Alderaan was a legitamite military target for the Empire to wipe out, and my response was above. I was trying to point out EXACTLY what you said Their are legitamite targets in Alderaan, but the whole planet is not a target.

If one disagrees with the morality of designating an entire planet or city as a target just because its government and population generally supports the other side in a war, that's fine ... as long as they're consistent about it and recognize that the Tokyo firebombings as well as the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also "genocide". You can't have your cake and eat it too, and all I ask for is a consistent approach.

PS. Saying that it prevented more deaths than it caused is not a rebuttal to the charge of genocide. Even if it's true, the fact would remain that one is trying to justify genocide, not proving that it was not genocide at all (not to mention the fact that fatalities in a galactic war would make Alderaan look like nothing, so if the destruction of Alderaan really had stopped the Rebellion and quelled unrest, the same mathematics would apply).

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-25 04:56pm

Alderaan is different than Tokyo, Mike. Destroying Alderaan destroys the entire base of Alderaanian culture, whereas bombing Tokyo leaves the rest of Japan intact (granted, it's war, so 'intact' is a very relatively term and I'm not addressing the other bombings that took place; clearly there was more damage than just Tokyo). Had the Empire glassed major Alderaanian cities, that'd be more analogous to what happened to Japan in WW2. The utter destruction of the culture of Alderaan is different.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-25 05:12pm

McC wrote:Alderaan is different than Tokyo, Mike. Destroying Alderaan destroys the entire base of Alderaanian culture, whereas bombing Tokyo leaves the rest of Japan intact (granted, it's war, so 'intact' is a very relatively term and I'm not addressing the other bombings that took place; clearly there was more damage than just Tokyo). Had the Empire glassed major Alderaanian cities, that'd be more analogous to what happened to Japan in WW2. The utter destruction of the culture of Alderaan is different.

Bullshit. Alderaanian culture was no more distinct from its galactic neighbours than an individual city in Tokyo would be. Or do you figure that there's no such thing as a distinct regional culture within a country? New York has no cultural distinctions from, say, rural Alabama?

On the scale of the galaxy, where in fact the fall of the Empire did lead to casualties exceeding those of Alderaan, it is not at all unreasonable to say that the Hiroshima argument applies in full. It's all well and good to say "it's not precisely identical", but that's not enough. You have to show that it is not analogous for the purposes of the argument.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2004-10-25 05:23pm

Bullshit. Alderaanian culture was no more distinct from its galactic neighbours than an individual city in Tokyo would be. Or do you figure that there's no such thing as a distinct regional culture within a country? New York has no cultural distinctions from, say, rural Alabama?

A fair point. I dunno if the distinction is that narrow, but it's narrower than I was originally stating.

On the scale of the galaxy, where in fact the fall of the Empire did lead to casualties exceeding those of Alderaan, it is not at all unreasonable to say that the Hiroshima argument applies in full. It's all well and good to say "it's not precisely identical", but that's not enough. You have to show that it is not analogous for the purposes of the argument.

Er, I'm not sure what you're saying here...I think I agree with it already, so I'm unsure why you're saying at as an argument, but without knowing what you mean specifically, I'm uncertain.