OK, I know that Saxton didn't authorize this in HIS ITW

[Kurgan]

I suppose you want a nice, perfect situation where you just crack the shield with little damage to what's underneath. Unfortunately, with the massive energies being used, you are talking insanely small tolerances. Think ... we are talking 1E38J here, and I doubt you are going to be very happy if the weapon had a one in a trillion misadjustment (about 1E26J worth) and that leak effectively wiped out all life on the planet. Minor miscalibration of the weapon, minor changes in the shield field strength throughout, all of these would generate much larger variations, to say nothing of differing shield models and deployment methods.

Which they didn't even TRY. Instead they went for a sure-fire planet-killing blast. The fact is they can make weaker weapons, we see them construct a weapon that is capable of weaker shots a mere 6 months later. Are you trying to argue that either they fire a shot that does nothing or a shot that destroys the whole planet?

Edit: Ha! I just remembered, the Death Star had tons of turbolaser batteries. They had at least as much firepower as a ISD (more than likely thousands of times more), so they could have attacked the planet's shield without using the superlaser at all! So much for the Empire's "only option."

Aren't there instances of taking down shields in the rest of Star Wars, or are you saying the only way to take down a planetary shield is to destroy the planet utterly, like the Death Star did? Somehow I find that hard to believe...

Considering Alderaan's shield wound up managing to block over 1E37J, of course they had to make it plenty more powerful to guarantee a smooth penetration. It'd be highly embarassing if they fired a shot and it was stopped, would it?

Embarrassment isn't the issue. Who cares? It's more embarrassing that you kill 2 billion people as a "demonstration" without even giving diplomacy or less lethal methods a second thought.

Are you saying the Empire doesn't have the resources or patience to make the planet surrender, and so they have no option but to destroy it utterly?

Also, the Rebels clearly needed this kind of threat. If they quieted down (which could be a likely outcome had Tarkin wiped out Yavin like he planned), then Tarkin would have saved countless lives on both sides, all for the down payment of a "mere" 2 billion (a lot for us, a dinge for the galaxy).

Quieted down? There was no negotiation, no chance whatosever. The only "chance" given was Tarkin's question to Leia. And it was clear from the scene that regardless of what she said, Alderaan would be destroyed, and it was. So clearly the Empire had no intention of trying anything else, meaning Alderaan was pre-meditated mass-murder, not a last resort forced on them by the Alliance. No mention is made of the shield in the movie at all. It's not as if they weren't going to fire until they "saw" the shield.

Doesn't mean it wasn't true. And honestly, I wasn't too disgusted about killing those Tuskens either.

Well that says a lot! So genocide isn't a bad thing for you, nor is the murder of women & children or enemies who are outmatched and retreating, okay. Well maybe this argument is irrelevant after all.

Wiping out a planet to kill a few traitors seems awfully harsh & overkill, even if you don't have a problem with genocide.

That the stuff we see is NR propaganda is undeniable. The only difference is in the estimation of distortion degree. The novelization, being near the top, is considered relatively clean (at least it makes a passing notice of the shield, while official sources like the DESB deny it totally).

I was just curious what you'd say to that, since the novels seem to give the Empire the biggest benefit of the doubt. Of course even then, taking their excuses into account and the movie itself, leaves little room for the notion that the Empire is in fact quite horrible.

The nice way of saying "scaring the galaxy at large into obedience" is called "helping cooler heads prevail", which is a term used by even the New Republic.

Cooler heads?? The Rebels didn't want to blow up planets, the Empire did. The Rebels tried to stop the Death Star precisely because they didn't want the Empire blowing up planets. Is this the idea "well if you get us angry we'll use this and then it'll be your own fault"?

Sounds like blaming the victim to me.

And why should the Empire regret forcing a person into ratting out a bunch of traitors (their POV). You tell me why I should feel regret in forcing a person to rat out traitors.

It didn't matter, ultimately, because whatever answer Leia gave, Alderaan was going to be destroyed as a "demonstration" of the Death Star's power. It didn't matter how many traitors might be on Alderaan or how powerful their shield might be. Tarkin was using an "alternative means of persuasion."

Ultimately Tarkin mislead Leia ("You're far too trusting. Dantooine is far too remote to make an effective demonstration. But don't worry, we will deal with your Rebel friends soon enough."), and Leia mislead Tarkin ("She lied! She lied to us!", "I told you she would never consciously betray the Rebellion."). But it wasn't Leia who murdered 2 billion people in an instant. I'd say that makes the Empire the bigger monster here.


If you want to look at this from the Empire's point of view, yeah, Leia wasn't cracking (maybe it was her force abilities deep down, who knows). But here's an idea... find some other less resistant Rebel, and extract the info from them. Or don't scare Alderaan, send down some spies to infiltrate and weed out the traitors. Or send down Vader. They had lots of options.

[Kurgan]

Btw, the whole "well people wanted Palpatine to be the leader" argument is muddied by the fact that he was using the Dark Side of the Force to manipulate the minds of people. Not to mention that starting a war against yourself is treasonous. That goes beyond mere politician's games for winning popular support.

Mind tricks aren't supposed to work so well on the strong-minded, and he can hardly afford to use massive amounts of Force so close to the Jedi Temple.

The Clone Wars were a nasty sort, but no one in the Old Republic could have proved it.

Bullshit. Palpatine can cloud the minds of 10,000 Jedi. Since the Jedi are basically of as "strong mind" they come, it's no big deal to use the Force to manipulate mundane Senators with his powers and avoid detection.

Watch the movies. This isn't some Padawan waving his hands around like he's some kinda Jedi, it's the friggin' Dark Lord of the Sith! Lucas himself said it: the Darkside is stronger.

The argument that Alderaan is just loose change in the galaxy so it's only a massacre isn't a good argument.

In the real world most countries take the murder of a single person very seriously. They don't go "well there are 6 billion people on earth, so it doesn't matter." Killing one person is murder. Killing 1,000 people is mass murder. I don't care what universe you come from, killing 2 billion people + the planet they are on is a genocidal act.

If the rightness or wrongness of an act is based on the "morality of the time" well, the morality of the Star Wars universe says that killing 2 billion people + their planet is evil too. People like the Emperor and Tarkin just don't give a damn. Much like Hitler didn't care about the people he had killed. Insanity, evil, or lack of conscience through insane ideology, you decide.

[consequences]

Most countries take the murder of people seriously, unless it was the government itself doing it, using due process. At which pont, it becomes doing business, especially if the people being killed can be shown to be different from right-thinking folk somehow.

Killing 2 billion people is only genocide if they have something setting them apart from the larger group they are a part of. Since funky hats and hairdos seem to be the only contribution Alderaan had to make to the galaxy, it is simply a multi-giga-death crime. Considering that Luke, R2D2, and potentially Lando Calrissian and Wedge Antilles are guilty of this as well, pardon me for not giving a fuck.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Which they didn't even TRY. Instead they went for a sure-fire planet-killing blast. The fact is they can make weaker weapons, we see them construct a weapon that is capable of weaker shots a mere 6 months later. Are you trying to argue that either they fire a shot that does nothing or a shot that destroys the whole planet?

But that's not guaranteed to break past Alderaan's shield. Of course you can make a weaker weapon - all you have to do is make it smaller or fire faster. The problem is one of accurate gradational output, to both provide the needed power to smash past the most insanely powerful shield and yet with the insane precision to do what you want. To do that properly with a 1E38J weapon requires tolerances of about one in a million just to avoid busting the GPE, one in a trillion (down to E26J range) just to avoid complete destruction, and one in a quadrillion to avoid severe destruction.

Could any weapon guarantee that kind of precision? Remember you are not in complete control here - the shield variations are also in the thing.

Aren't there instances of taking down shields in the rest of Star Wars, or are you saying the only way to take down a planetary shield is to destroy the planet utterly, like the Death Star did? Somehow I find that hard to believe...

In case you want to say the Empire did not try, they did try the Torphedo Spheres.

Embarrassment isn't the issue. Who cares? It's more embarrassing that you kill 2 billion people as a "demonstration" without even giving diplomacy or less lethal methods a second thought.

Diplomacy? A standing government does not negotiate with the guerillas unless it admits defeat. Since we both agree the Empire won't do that, diplomacy?

Are you saying the Empire doesn't have the resources or patience to make the planet surrender, and so they have no option but to destroy it utterly?

Sure, they could have a blockade lasting for months, wasting resources, showing indecision. After that, if the planet is independent (perfectly possible w/ only 2 billion), it could hold out indefinitely. If it is not, you are potentially looking at massive starvation and hundreds of millions of painful deaths.

Quieted down? There was no negotiation, no chance whatosever. The only "chance" given was Tarkin's question to Leia. And it was clear from the scene that regardless of what she said, Alderaan would be destroyed, and it was. So clearly the Empire had no intention of trying anything else, meaning Alderaan was pre-meditated mass-murder, not a last resort forced on them by the Alliance. No mention is made of the shield in the movie at all. It's not as if they weren't going to fire until they "saw" the shield.

You can see the shield, and just its mere existence suggests another of Leia's lies. And if there was any chance the DS won't have fired, the Alderaanians threw it away.

It is also possible that had Leia been more honest, Alderaan could have been spared. I mean, even we can tell it won't be Dantooine.

By quiet down, I meant after Alderaan (to show Resolve) and Yavin. With the backbone of the Rebel Alliance broken, and the Death Star proven invincible, it is very possible the Alliance's active activities would just die off, preventing the need for further deaths.

Well that says a lot! So genocide isn't a bad thing for you, nor is the murder of women & children or enemies who are outmatched and retreating, okay. Well maybe this argument is irrelevant after all.

Honestly, they are purely a threat to the human population. The children will grow up to be Tusken raiders. The mothers are either logistics for those Tusken raiders or plain out combatants. Can you tell me seriously if Anakin spared those little critters, they would never attack a human settlemnt again? Somehow, I really doubt it.

It was a massacre (since Anakin didn't go and wipe out all the Tuskens, I don't think it counts as genocide).

And outmatching your enemies is part of war. War is not a sport.

Wiping out a planet to kill a few traitors seems awfully harsh & overkill, even if you don't have a problem with genocide.

A few. But Alderaan's is supposed to be a democracy. To have the government cooperating so nicely as to give Traitor "Senator" Leia a diplomatic use starship ... hmm, I doubt it is a "minority" here.

I was just curious what you'd say to that, since the novels seem to give the Empire the biggest benefit of the doubt. Of course even then, taking their excuses into account and the movie itself, leaves little room for the notion that the Empire is in fact quite horrible.

No one denies about the harshness of Imperial justice.

Cooler heads?? The Rebels didn't want to blow up planets, the Empire did. The Rebels tried to stop the Death Star precisely because they didn't want the Empire blowing up planets. Is this the idea "well if you get us angry we'll use this and then it'll be your own fault"?

If your planet is traitorous to the Empire, the punishment for treason is death, ergo... At the very least, the government itself should not be in the act, don't you agree?

Sounds like blaming the victim to me.

When judging something, the court tends to consider extenuating circumstance.

If you want to look at this from the Empire's point of view, yeah, Leia wasn't cracking (maybe it was her force abilities deep down, who knows). But here's an idea... find some other less resistant Rebel, and extract the info from them. Or don't scare Alderaan, send down some spies to infiltrate and weed out the traitors. Or send down Vader. They had lots of options.

1) It is kind of hrd to find the less resistant Rebel. Rebel bases tend to be top secret, so only a relatively senior member even has a good shot of knowing where the base is.
2) The ISB no doubt is already down there (where do you think the reports of the munitions came from). The scope of the problem, however, is clearly more than what the ISB and Imp Intel could handle.
3) Send down Vader. So he comes in his Star Destroyer, and given what we know of Alderaanian responses, they would put up the shield ... now what? Are you seriously proposing that Vader demean himself and sneak down or something?

Bullshit. Palpatine can cloud the minds of 10,000 Jedi. Since the Jedi are basically of as "strong mind" they come, it's no big deal to use the Force to manipulate mundane Senators with his powers and avoid detection.

He can stop them from picking him up (that's impressive in its own right considering the point blank range). That's not the same as Affect Mind.

In the real world most countries take the murder of a single person very seriously.

Unless they are at war or Civil War.

[Kurgan]

Most countries take the murder of people seriously, unless it was the government itself doing it, using due process. At which pont, it becomes doing business, especially if the people being killed can be shown to be different from right-thinking folk somehow.

Killing 2 billion people is only genocide if they have something setting them apart from the larger group they are a part of. Since funky hats and hairdos seem to be the only contribution Alderaan had to make to the galaxy, it is simply a multi-giga-death crime. Considering that Luke, R2D2, and potentially Lando Calrissian and Wedge Antilles are guilty of this as well, pardon me for not giving a fuck.

The Death Star had 1 million military personel onboard. DeathStar2, I dunno.

That's horrific, of course, but when you consider the alternative is to let them kill billions (mostly civilians) with their terror weapon, you can at least understand it. The Empire seems to want to slaughter billions to wipe out (at best) a few thousand "enemies of the state" (or guerilla insurgents, whatever they wish to call them).

Alderaan and all its cultures and peoples are dead, wiped out.

I suppose we could argue that Hitler's Final Solution wasn't really genocide since the people he killed's only contribution were some "funky hats and hairdoes" right? Oh... nevermind.

I guess it depends on your moral convictions. Does the State have the right to commit mass murder against its civilians for "disloyalty"? And by fighting back, if the "disloyal" kill a fraction of the State's soldiers, are they "wrong"?

Personally I feel that murdering people is wrong, but even allowing certain exceptions, there seems to be no real equivalency or balance between their actions.

Kazuaki Shimazaki:


As to Palpatine's power, Dooku told Obi-Wan the truth... a Sith Lord controls a large portion of the Senate. Maybe the RPG doesn't have an equivalent "power" for that, but it's there. Yes, he's a Political Manipulator, but he's also a Dark Lord of the Sith, with powers greater than "any Jedi."

He coordinates his troops like some whacked-out organic/force Droid Control Ship, for crying out loud! And then there's all that uber-wanktastic EU bullshit he can do... mind tricking a few Senators shouldn't be much of a chore.

As far as finding non-resistant rebels, well they had quite a few of them in custody. Vader impulsively killed one of them. Maybe they didn't know anything, but at least they were mundanes, not force sensitive, and not some "trained to resist mind probe" Princesses. The Empire is sadistic, and also notoriously arrogant & incompetent, so I guess that's too much to ask for them to try other methods.

I use the murder argument because it's being argued that the Empire isn't evil for murdering billions because that's only a "drop in the bucket" of the galactic population. As if murdering 1 person is a triffle compared to killing 1,000. Well, killing lots more people is obviously more serious, but it doesn't make killing the 1 person something that nobody does or should give a damn about.

If you want to use the excuse that "it's war, anything goes" then sure, the Empire can kill millions, billions, trillions, all of its citizens. Who cares? By the same token, who cares if the Rebels kill all the Imperials. It's war! War has no rules... right?

In this argument you're trying to change the rules so that the Empire looks like it is just doing what it had to do, and its being excused for its crimes, but the Rebels must have forced them to do it (blaming the victim). As before, the resistance is somehow to blame for the oppression that caused them to resist. And the damages incurred by the instigator & aggressor (the Empire) in the fight is somehow not their responsibility. I don't buy it.

Comparions like this designed to make the Empire look better, just make them look worse...

And don't talk to me about "justice." Is slaughtering 2 billion people for "treason" justice? Do you have proof that all 2 billion of those people were guilty? Did they cause 2 billion deaths and therefore are worthy of death themselves?

"Your planet is traitorous, therefore you deserve to die." Says who? The Empire? Oh great. That's like saying "there is a terrorist living in your country, therefore your whole country will be slaughtered wholesale." Ludicrous and not "just" in any sense except some twisted insane Imperial ideology. Even from a Machieavellian viewpoint, Rule by Fear has a weakness, which is if you make your enemy too afraid, they may decide that taking you out is worth the risk, rather than waiting to be inevitably killed by their enemy. No amount of loyalty to the Empire can protect someone from their "justice."

[consequences]

Most countries take the murder of people seriously, unless it was the government itself doing it, using due process. At which pont, it becomes doing business, especially if the people being killed can be shown to be different from right-thinking folk somehow.

Killing 2 billion people is only genocide if they have something setting them apart from the larger group they are a part of. Since funky hats and hairdos seem to be the only contribution Alderaan had to make to the galaxy, it is simply a multi-giga-death crime. Considering that Luke, R2D2, and potentially Lando Calrissian and Wedge Antilles are guilty of this as well, pardon me for not giving a fuck.

The Death Star had 1 million military personel onboard. DeathStar2, I dunno.

That's horrific, of course, but when you consider the alternative is to let them kill billions (mostly civilians) with their terror weapon, you can at least understand it. The Empire seems to want to slaughter billions to wipe out (at best) a few thousand "enemies of the state" (or guerilla insurgents, whatever they wish to call them).

Alderaan and all its cultures and peoples are dead, wiped out.

I suppose we could argue that Hitler's Final Solution wasn't really genocide since the people he killed's only contribution were some "funky hats and hairdoes" right? Oh... nevermind.

I guess it depends on your moral convictions. Does the State have the right to commit mass murder against its civilians for "disloyalty"? And by fighting back, if the "disloyal" kill a fraction of the State's soldiers, are they "wrong"?

Personally I feel that murdering people is wrong, but even allowing certain exceptions, there seems to be no real equivalency or balance between their actions.

The DS1 had a crew of around a million... If you accept the EU sources that have gotten its size and armament consistently wrong, and ignore the relative population densities encountered, even before the station went on alert. Check out the SWTC for detailed math and reasoning. More realistic crew numbers range from a billion on up. This completely disregards the fact that Byss by itself had 17 billion+ in population.

On the moral side, I am disinclined to get worked up. When you use you official government transportation to run covert ops, and try to hide behind your moral high ground of being pacifistic while supplying weapons to support an insurrection, you lose a great deal of sympathy from me. Alderaan tried to call the Empire's bluff by raising their shield, and they died for it.

From a purely pragmatic perspective, taking out the planet shows that a populace had damned well better keep their leadership from trying to rebel, so that the same thing doesn't happen to them.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The Death Star had 1 million military personel onboard. DeathStar2, I dunno.

See Saxton's population analysis.

That's horrific, of course, but when you consider the alternative is to let them kill billions (mostly civilians) with their terror weapon, you can at least understand it. The Empire seems to want to slaughter billions to wipe out (at best) a few thousand "enemies of the state" (or guerilla insurgents, whatever they wish to call them).

Why do you assume there are only a few thousand?

I guess it depends on your moral convictions. Does the State have the right to commit mass murder against its civilians for "disloyalty"? And by fighting back, if the "disloyal" kill a fraction of the State's soldiers, are they "wrong"?

Treason is a crime punishable by death or labor camp. Some countries may be more lenient, but it is not something out of wack or anything.

As to Palpatine's power, Dooku told Obi-Wan the truth... a Sith Lord controls a large portion of the Senate. Maybe the RPG doesn't have an equivalent "power" for that, but it's there. Yes, he's a Political Manipulator, but he's also a Dark Lord of the Sith, with powers greater than "any Jedi."

Well, he can hide his powers, but that also means he can't use his screw too hard, or his facade would collapse. A Force-user is said to expose himself to others as he draws on the Force. It is pretty damn amazing he's able to hide at all at such a close range, showing off his superior mastery. But being able to sneak around with the screw nearly off is not the same as being able to stay quiet while driving his screw all over the place.

The Power, if he used it, is probably Affect Mind.

As far as finding non-resistant rebels, well they had quite a few of them in custody. Vader impulsively killed one of them. Maybe they didn't know anything, but at least they were mundanes, not force sensitive, and not some "trained to resist mind probe" Princesses. The Empire is sadistic, and also notoriously arrogant & incompetent, so I guess that's too much to ask for them to try other methods.

Except for the Captain (which Vader killed), maybe the Navigator needs to know the coordinates of their final destinatioN (and the Captain might just choose to do the astrogation himself, ridding that leak). Every other crew simply doesn't need to know.

I use the murder argument because it's being argued that the Empire isn't evil for murdering billions because that's only a "drop in the bucket" of the galactic population. As if murdering 1 person is a triffle compared to killing 1,000. Well, killing lots more people is obviously more serious, but it doesn't make killing the 1 person something that nobody does or should give a damn about.

If the murder was intended to stop a greater slaughter it might be considered justifiable. See Hiroshima.

In this argument you're trying to change the rules so that the Empire looks like it is just doing what it had to do, and its being excused for its crimes, but the Rebels must have forced them to do it (blaming the victim). As before, the resistance is somehow to blame for the oppression that caused them to resist.

No, the Empire is responsible for making the law. But that they chose to resist is their responsibility. And when the Empire chooses to crush them? When their government stupidly tries to be treasonous (from almost the very beginning, Alderaan was a quiet traitor to the Empire, with Bail Organa quietly funneling resources to the Rebellion to kill the soldiers of his government). Honestly, I'm not feeling too great sympathy pangs, especially considering two billion people were killed.

And don't talk to me about "justice." Is slaughtering 2 billion people for "treason" justice? Do you have proof that all 2 billion of those people were guilty? Did they cause 2 billion deaths and therefore are worthy of death themselves?

Let's start with the notion that Treason is Punishable by Death. By that notion, if all two billion people are Traitorous, they are killable. After all, it'd be rather hypocritical to say it is OK to kill one Traitor, but not two billion.

The only question of doubt is exactly how many of those are traitors. Considering that those traitorous actions are government sponsored, by a supposedly democratic government, I suspect it may well be over 50%. And I'd admit the Imperial court would hardly go for "Proof Beyond Reasonable Doubt" in Treason cases.

Once it is over 50%, technically, this is a execution, and the loyal minority suffered "collateral damage". Honestly, 900 million dead worth of collateral damage to kill 1.1 billion traitors (of which perhaps only a few thousand are traitorous enough to volunteer for fighting, but when the government is on your side, it becomes much easier to become a traitor in other ways, like monetary wise or even just talkwise, and in such a case, your tax dollars may be going to the Rebels whether you know it or not) ain't a very good score. But what can you do, really, when 1.1 billion traitors hide under the otherwise impenetrable shield. How many people do you want to use to arrest the lot of them, interrogate them, try them and execute them when they are found guilty?

"Your planet is traitorous, therefore you deserve to die." Says who? The Empire? Oh great. That's like saying "there is a terrorist living in your country, therefore your whole country will be slaughtered wholesale." Ludicrous and not "just" in any sense except some twisted insane Imperial ideology. Even from a Machieavellian viewpoint, Rule by Fear has a weakness, which is if you make your enemy too afraid, they may decide that taking you out is worth the risk, rather than waiting to be inevitably killed by their enemy. No amount of loyalty to the Empire can protect someone from their "justice."

At the very least, the terrorists shouldn't be so blatantly obviously supported by their democratic government, should they? There were a few terrorists from Corellia too. The Imperial government leaves their planet alone. Partially because at the very least, their government isn't in the traitor act. I consider that at least a minimal requirement.

Try "The majority of your country are terrorists, with full governmental support". That's closer.

[Kurgan]

Ok, let's talk about a few things. You want to deny the official figures that the Death Star had 1 million human personel and instead had 17 billion. Okay, let's assume that it had more people. Therefore the Rebellion is evil for killing 17 billion people on a space station, whereas the Empire 'only' killed 2 billion on a planet.

But, that's also accepting a figure of 'only' 2 billion for an earth-like core planet in Star Wars. Granted this isn't Coruscant (multiple trillions), but 2 billion is far too low (our primitive earth has 3x that). Let's say they instead have a more realistic figure like a few hundred billion or even a trillion.

So scale things up. The Death Star had more people on it, so did Alderaan. The Death Stars were bigger, everything is bigger. But the situation remains virtually unchanged.

On a side note, I never understood why they couldn't have used more droids on the Death Star. But then perhaps Lucas will explain that as some kind of "anti-droid bias" coming out of the Clone Wars. But we see canonical examples of droids there, so it's not like this is a Butlerian Jihad type thing. Still, the absence of heavy automation seems impossible on a station the size of either Death Star.

On another side note, if you did want to really argue that the Death Star had more people on it than Alderaan (doubtful), one could still argue that destroying the Death Star is morally permissable in war, because of the fact that the Death Star can kill more than just one planet, and sooner or later there will be a planet with more people on it than the DS, or simply the accumulation of planets will far outweigh any deaths taking out the station would cause. Why wait for that to happen? The Rebellion was growing, "more starsystems will slip through your fingers," etc. Unless the galaxy all of a sudden decides to bend over and like it, lots of people are going to die because of the Empire's new 'order'. Even in peacetime the DeathStar is going to do "drive by's" through the galaxy to sustain the fear level, so even then, more suffering will happen if the station isn't stopped.

To address more of the pro-Imperial arguments, the notions "Treason is punishable by death," "order must be maintained," "we don't negotiate with terrorists, guerillas or anyone else" etc, are all assumptions. The Empire doesn't get that while yes, rule by fear requires the constant threat of violence and acts of violence to maintain control (after all they deliberately abolished the Senate and adopted, per on screen dialouge and events rule by fear instead), if you make your citizens more afraid of living with you than of any potential enemies, they will try to take you out.

So what if the Empire made the laws, the laws can be unjust, unless you're arguing that morality = law (and vice versa) in which case yes, all revolutions and rebellions are immoral. Of course that would mean that the Empire's revolution would also be immoral, even though it was bloodless (well okay, even then it wasn't).

Basically Alderaan's justified destruction is being argued on Osama Bin Laden logic. Alderaan is a democracy, therefore if their government or society supports the Rebellion financially, they must all be equally guilty, and thus all worthy of death. Therefore wholesale slaughter of civilians is justified. For some of you out there, this is also GWB logic. Either you're with us (the State) or against us (with the terrorists/rebels/whatevers).

*wonder how many red flags that set off? anyway!*

I'd say when that many lives are at stake, yes, negotiation and diplomacy should be tried.

Oh, I've got you, you must be thinking, why didn't the Rebels try to negotiate with the Death Star? Well maybe they did, we don't know because Tarkin never answered. And is Luke in his X-Wing supposed to somehow contact the Death Star during the battle and demand surrender? We saw how Jabba took it, this situation would be even more laughable.

So why is the situation different with Alderaan you ask? Well, for one, Alderaan didn't have a planet crushing superlaser pointed at the Death Star. And unlike the Death Star, Alderaan isn't a military target. If a nuke is pointed at a city, and you destroy the facility that the nuke is in, civilians and all, is it a defensive measure? Or is it murder (to prevent the worse evil of the slaughter of the civilians in the city)?

It seems to me that the Empire is not out to save lives from Rebellion. And executing people for the crime of "disloyalty" (which can mean anything in a dictatorship), but rather to scare the galaxy, as a form of rule. But we're still giving the Empire the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they are rational and moral and have a good reason for doing all this. I think they're just wicked jerks who want to rule a galaxy (that they stole from the people) by fear, but let's indulge in some more foolishness just for fun...

There's the question of options. The Rebellion didn't have a lot of options. Obey the Empire or Die. The Empire on the other hand had the vast infastructure of the Galaxy and the Sith Powers of the Dark Emperor Palpatine. They could vary their level of Force. They could even choose benevolence (pardon the planet in exchange for pledges of loyalty and opening of their archives or something along those lines, as an example). They could even have held Princess Leia for ransom. Or they could park themselves in orbit around Alderaan and make their demands to the planet (hell, they don't need a DeathStar for that, three ISD's will do in a pinch). Think!

If they were honestly going by some axiom that all "traitor planets" must be wiped out, they would going to slaughter trillions more with that infernal station. Maybe the deaths of the military onboard (heck, throw in hypothetical conscripts and civilians onboard too) was worth it in sheer numbers.

And don't tell me that if the Rebellion was crushed they wouldn't stop using it. Eventually the fear of the Empire will die down and they'll need to make another demonstration to "renew" their scary social contract.

So no attempt at negotiation (Tarkin's "deal" [lie] to Leia was a foregone conclusion even if you count that), instead they blow up the whole planet as a demonstration. It's clear to me now that the issue is simply rule by fear. You kill some random person (call them bad in the back of your mind if it makes pulling the trigger easier) and then say "don't let that happen to you" to everyone else. But then if there's nothing a person can do ('stay loyal, no thoughtcrime against big brother and you'll be okay...'), then they start thinking, hmmm, maybe if we all rush the guy with the gun, sure some of us will get shot, but it will be worth it to be rid of him. As I see it, the Empire caused the Rebellion by their switch to rule by fear. I'll take a corrupt democracy over rule by fear anyday. Who needs external threats when your own government may kill you & your family/friends/neighbors as a 'demonstration' or 'example.'

With all this Imperial apologist BS, I'm shocked that there hasn't been a claim that Alderaan was secretly building their own Death Star, and that the DS was actually a nursery for orphans (yes, I read the joke site).

Bottom line, I'm just glad the Empire is fictional. Sadly, it's obvious that people who think or act like them definately exist, they just don't wield the kind of unimaginable power that the sci fi villians do.

[The Original Nex]

But, that's also accepting a figure of 'only' 2 billion for an earth-like core planet in Star Wars. Granted this isn't Coruscant (multiple trillions), but 2 billion is far too low (our primitive earth has 3x that). Let's say they instead have a more realistic figure like a few hundred billion or even a trillion.

Alderaan is mostly wilderness with only a few cities and other small townships and farms. Why should it have more beings than Earth (which is already dangerously overpopulated)?

So scale things up. The Death Star had more people on it, so did Alderaan. The Death Stars were bigger, everything is bigger. But the situation remains virtually unchanged.

Why scale up the size of Alderaan? The Death Stars are scaled to the size shown in the movies as is Alderaan. Just because the DS are resized, doesn't mean everything is.

On a side note, I never understood why they couldn't have used more droids on the Death Star. But then perhaps Lucas will explain that as some kind of "anti-droid bias" coming out of the Clone Wars. But we see canonical examples of droids there, so it's not like this is a Butlerian Jihad type thing. Still, the absence of heavy automation seems impossible on a station the size of either Death Star.

Did you notice all the droids on the Death Star? There were probably many more droids than there were humans on the DS. Most of them would be in environments not shown in the movies.

Alderaan is a democracy

It is? Bail Organa is elected Viceroy of Alderaan? The Royal Family of Alderaan is elected?

[Rogue 9]

If they do not recognize the government, they would call themselves the "Movement to Restore the Republic" or "Republic-Government-in-Exile". Calling yourself the Rebel Alliance in effect concedes the basic legitimacy to your governmental enemy.

[Yoda] Retarded, you are. Yessss. [/Yoda]

The full name of the organization was the Alliance to Restore the Republic. The short name for this was the Alliance. Rebellion and Rebel Alliance was how it was referred to by the Empire. And you call yourself a Warsie. *Slap*

[Rogue 9]

In case you want to say the Empire did not try, they did try the Torphedo Spheres.

Show me the torpedo sphere at Alderaan and then I'll believe that they tried it.

[Captain Cyran]

Did you notice all the droids on the Death Star? There were probably many more droids than there were humans on the DS. Most of them would be in environments not shown in the movies.

What movie were you watching? The only droids we really see are those black troop guide droids and a few protocol droids. Basically, you have no proof of this assumption.

For another matter. Why do there have to be a lot droids for there to be heavy automation on the station?[/i]

[Lord of the Farce]

If they do not recognize the government, they would call themselves the "Movement to Restore the Republic" or "Republic-Government-in-Exile". Calling yourself the Rebel Alliance in effect concedes the basic legitimacy to your governmental enemy.

[Yoda] Retarded, you are. Yessss. [/Yoda]
The full name of the organization was the Alliance to Restore the Republic. The short name for this was the Alliance. Rebellion and Rebel Alliance was how it was referred to by the Empire. And you call yourself a Warsie. *Slap*

That is true, but even the Rebels primarily used the term "Rebel Alliance". Even "official" Alliance documents describe the Alliance primarily as a "Rebel Alliance" rather than an "Alliance to Restore the Republic".

[Kurgan]

But, that's also accepting a figure of 'only' 2 billion for an earth-like core planet in Star Wars. Granted this isn't Coruscant (multiple trillions), but 2 billion is far too low (our primitive earth has 3x that). Let's say they instead have a more realistic figure like a few hundred billion or even a trillion.

Alderaan is mostly wilderness with only a few cities and other small townships and farms. Why should it have more beings than Earth (which is already dangerously overpopulated)?

Our overpopulation problems aren't a problem for the Star Wars universe. Coruscant is a prime example. Trillions upon trillions of people, and they do fine with the technology of that galaxy. We need not place those kinds of limits on Alderaan, unless we assume they are technologically backward.

Aren't they spacefaring? I thought they were a modern, core world, not a back-water desert like Tatooine. If they are just a sparesly populated planet of rustics and farmers, why do they have all this wealth to supposedly fund and produce munitions for the entire Rebel Alliance? Sounds fishy to me...

So scale things up. The Death Star had more people on it, so did Alderaan. The Death Stars were bigger, everything is bigger. But the situation remains virtually unchanged.

Why scale up the size of Alderaan? The Death Stars are scaled to the size shown in the movies as is Alderaan. Just because the DS are resized, doesn't mean everything is.

I should clarify. Scale up the Death Star from 120 km (official) to 160 km (movie scaling and behind-the-scenes intention). Scale up the population of the Death Star (1 million official to 17 billion speculation) and the population of Alderaan (2 billion official to a few hundred billion speculation). I don't mean increase the physical size of the PLANET ITSELF. Sorry if if that wasn't clear.

It's not fair to maximize the DS population and minimize the Alderaan population. Why would a space station have more people on it than earth, but an earth-clone would have many times less? That's my beef with it.

snip about droids

I mean, why do we have to assume that there are 17 billion humans running the Death Star. Why can't we have 1 million human crewers and billions of droids? Isn't the whole point of the "17 billion" figure because 1 million isn't enough hands to get everything done? Or is it taking a sampling of the area seen in the movie and assuming its like that everywhere on the entire station? There are a lot of possible scenarios for the DS...

We don't need to assume droids (as we have seen them) for automation. It's true, we don't have to assume anything. The rest of the DS need not be like the tiny portion we saw. There could be tons of droids, huge indoor cities, wall to wall machinery or tons of empty space. The movie doesn't show us.

But, if you just need humanoids to operate control panels and push buttons, etc. droids would be cheaper and easier, plus it would explain the 1 million quote as an alternative to assuming 17 billion military onboard (+all the facilities needed to sustain that many humans for any length of time).

Alderaan is a democracy

It is? Bail Organa is elected Viceroy of Alderaan? The Royal Family of Alderaan is elected?

I don't know, you tell me. In this discussion it's been assumed that Alderaan was a democracy, therefore everyone on the planet agreed to support the Rebellion, therefore (by Imperial Apologist thinking) everyone of them deserved to be wiped out by the Death Star, because they were traitors.

Just because they have a Royal Family doesn't mean they can't be democratic. It could be a figurehead monarchy like Britain, or there could have been some kind of arrangement like with Naboo's elected Queen. I honestly don't know, I just assumed they were considered democratic, officially. If they're not, well that's even less ammo for the Empire side I guess...

[Lord of the Farce]

I should clarify. Scale up the Death Star from 120 km (official) to 160 km (movie scaling and behind-the-scenes intention). Scale up the population of the Death Star (1 million official to 17 billion speculation) and the population of Alderaan (2 billion official to a few hundred billion speculation). I don't mean increase the physical size of the PLANET ITSELF. Sorry if if that wasn't clear.

It's not fair to maximize the DS population and minimize the Alderaan population. Why would a space station have more people on it than earth, but an earth-clone would have many times less? That's my beef with it.

Except that it is (obviously) not in the Rebel Alliance's interest to underestimate Alderaan's population. Hell, this is what the Databank has to say about it (emphasis my):

Unlike the crowded Core worlds like Coruscant, Alderaanian society struck a harmonious balance between urban centers and undisturbed wilderness.
-snip
The few metropolitan areas of the planet were designed in such a way to complement their surroundings.

Does that sound remotely like a planet of super-population?

[Rogue 9]

I should clarify. Scale up the Death Star from 120 km (official) to 160 km (movie scaling and behind-the-scenes intention). Scale up the population of the Death Star (1 million official to 17 billion speculation) and the population of Alderaan (2 billion official to a few hundred billion speculation). I don't mean increase the physical size of the PLANET ITSELF. Sorry if if that wasn't clear.

It's not fair to maximize the DS population and minimize the Alderaan population. Why would a space station have more people on it than earth, but an earth-clone would have many times less? That's my beef with it.

Except that it is (obviously) not in the Rebel Alliance's interest to underestimate Alderaan's population. Hell, this is what the Databank has to say about it (emphasis my):

Unlike the crowded Core worlds like Coruscant, Alderaanian society struck a harmonious balance between urban centers and undisturbed wilderness.
-snip
The few metropolitan areas of the planet were designed in such a way to complement their surroundings.

Does that sound remotely like a planet of super-population?

How does that have anything to do with anything? Killing 2 billion civilians as an interrogation tactic still qualifies as mass murder. Debating Alderaan's population doesn't change that fact.

[consequences]

I'm not scaling the DS to 17 billion, I'm saying that Byss had 17 billion people on it, all of which died as a result of R2D2's actions in Empire's End, and no one really gave a fuck. Population densities required to have the number of Imperials we saw in the movie, even assuming only the top kilometer or so of station is inhabited, start at about a billion and go up from there.

Lets see if I can craft an appropriate analogy. I am a member of the Baltimore Police Department, escorting the Deputy Mayor along with my unit. A regular army unit is pursuing us, accompanied by the Attorney General,as our leader is carrying secret plans for a new unstoppable strategic nuclear bomber, with the intention of giving them to militia cells that wish to destroy it and bring down the Federal government. They disable our convoy, and we fight to the death to prevent the Feds from recovering the plans. It comes to light that Balltimore is supplying Militia cells with personnel and military grade weaponry, including low grade weapons of mass destruction.
The city of Baltimore has erected a shield that is only penetrable by Nuclear bombardment, and has achieved long-term self-sufficiency(impossible in RL, but required to make the analogy valid). What exactly is the government supposed to do about it?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The full name of the organization was the Alliance to Restore the Republic. The short name for this was the Alliance. Rebellion and Rebel Alliance was how it was referred to by the Empire. And you call yourself a Warsie. *Slap*

Strange then, that this is not referred to but in what is probably going to be a very obscure source (which the Databank then incorporated), and they call themselves the Rebel Alliance. I've heard that name before, once in a blue moon, but it was so much in a blue moon I've accidentally abscribed it to a different organizaiton. In any case, if you call yourself the Rebel Alliance even in supposedly top-level internal government documents (like the RSB is supposed to be - I don't think you can even find the other term there), honestly I wonder if the anyone inside really even remembers that other term and having that other name is just about useless.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

How does that have anything to do with anything? Killing 2 billion civilians as an interrogation tactic still qualifies as mass murder. Debating Alderaan's population doesn't change that fact.

The low (for Galactic standards) body count does help the argument that they picked a world with high prestige (so the worlds know their status won't protect them) but with minimal death.

[Rogue 9]

How does that have anything to do with anything? Killing 2 billion civilians as an interrogation tactic still qualifies as mass murder. Debating Alderaan's population doesn't change that fact.

The low (for Galactic standards) body count does help the argument that they picked a world with high prestige (so the worlds know their status won't protect them) but with minimal death.

Still doesn't change that it was mass murder. Strike two.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

But, that's also accepting a figure of 'only' 2 billion for an earth-like core planet in Star Wars. Granted this isn't Coruscant (multiple trillions), but 2 billion is far too low (our primitive earth has 3x that). Let's say they instead have a more realistic figure like a few hundred billion or even a trillion.

Can't scale up without a very good cause, pal. Remember, as someone else said, the Aldies would want to bump up the population as much as possible, while crushing the Imperial DS (and Byss) populations down as far as possible. It is entirely feasible to have a planet with only a few billion people. The only reason we bumped up Coruscant's population is after a close look.

On a side note, I never understood why they couldn't have used more droids on the Death Star. But then perhaps Lucas will explain that as some kind of "anti-droid bias" coming out of the Clone Wars. But we see canonical examples of droids there, so it's not like this is a Butlerian Jihad type thing. Still, the absence of heavy automation seems impossible on a station the size of either Death Star.

There is automation. Just that there is still place for a lot of men.

On another side note, if you did want to really argue that the Death Star had more people on it than Alderaan (doubtful), one could still argue that destroying the Death Star is morally permissable in war, because of the fact that the Death Star can kill more than just one planet, and sooner or later there will be a planet with more people on it than the DS, or simply the accumulation of planets will far outweigh any deaths taking out the station would cause.

But if you want the Full-War Clause, then Alderaan is merely an act of Strategic Bombing of a Munitions site which unfortunately, due to the "hard" nature of the target, produced a lot of collateral damage. While in Full War, of course the Rebels blowing up the DS is legitimate, but you already thought that whether this is Full War or not, so that doesn't help you much. But that also legitimizes the Empire's blowing up Alderaan as a Enemy Strategic Target that fakes being part of them, so that's a net gain for us.

Why wait for that to happen? The Rebellion was growing, "more starsystems will slip through your fingers," etc. Unless the galaxy all of a sudden decides to bend over and like it, lots of people are going to die because of the Empire's new 'order'. Even in peacetime the DeathStar is going to do "drive by's" through the galaxy to sustain the fear level, so even then, more suffering will happen if the station isn't stopped.

Honestly, if the Death Star blew up Alderaan, then blew up Yavin, breaking the back of the Rebel Alliance, I find it hard to believe those Rebels won't quiet down.

And in Tarkin's viewpoint, this is clearly what he expects to happen, so this should be the viewpoint by which his actions are judged. IN his mind at least:
A) Death of Alderaan ... the last two billion
B) Allow Galactic Civil War, producing trillions of casualties.

The Empire doesn't get that while yes, rule by fear requires the constant threat of violence and acts of violence to maintain control (after all they deliberately abolished the Senate and adopted, per on screen dialouge and events rule by fear instead), if you make your citizens more afraid of living with you than of any potential enemies, they will try to take you out.

Honestly, considering the reliability of that fucking Senate, abolishing it is a matter of time. Remember how the RSB admits that its Bail Organa Senator is giving away funds that are supposed to go to Imperial soldiers to the Rebels? Senator Mon Mothma, leader of the Rebel movement? Senator Leia Organa, spy of the Alliance, liar to Tarkin? The Senate is obviously becoming a tool for the Rebels to use official status to become Enemies of the State. Honestly, it doesn't have to the Emperor. I would have abolished that stupid Senate.

And is not a constant state of Civil War, in a Hyperdrive-fought war (thus no frontlines) also a constant source of Fear?

So what if the Empire made the laws, the laws can be unjust, unless you're arguing that morality = law (and vice versa) in which case yes, all revolutions and rebellions are immoral. Of course that would mean that the Empire's revolution would also be immoral, even though it was bloodless (well okay, even then it wasn't).

No, the laws can be unjust. I don't like High Human Culture either. But the Empire obviously would think they are Just and therefore Enforce them. One needs to keep that in mind, that's all, and not take Two Points off, once for making the Law and the other the attempt to Enforce it.

Basically Alderaan's justified destruction is being argued on Osama Bin Laden logic. Alderaan is a democracy, therefore if their government or society supports the Rebellion financially, they must all be equally guilty,

Of course they are.

and thus all worthy of death.

Treason is punishable by Death, remember? Giving funds to the Rebels is not treason?

Therefore wholesale slaughter of civilians is justified. For some of you out there, this is also GWB logic. Either you're with us (the State) or against us (with the terrorists/rebels/whatevers).

But if they are giving funds to the Rebels, they are not exactly a Neutral Fence-sitter, are they? Also, the situation is a little different this time. The government should be able to expect its citizens to be at least minimally loyal. Obeying the law and not helping out the terrorists is a minimum, don't you think?

I'd say when that many lives are at stake, yes, negotiation and diplomacy should be tried.

Oh, so you negotiate with terrorists?

In any case, we know what these particular terrorists will demand, do you? These ones are not after cash. This bunch is after the fall of the government proper. Since a government proper would never accept that, what's the point?

Oh, I've got you, you must be thinking, why didn't the Rebels try to negotiate with the Death Star? Well maybe they did, we don't know because Tarkin never answered. And is Luke in his X-Wing supposed to somehow contact the Death Star during the battle and demand surrender? We saw how Jabba took it, this situation would be even more laughable.

Well, since he really is doing nothing but flying straight, he could have the time to do so. Seriously, however, since he's a junior flier, that demand of surrender is not his to make. If someone is going to demand surrender, it will be the guys back at Yavin base. Since they can talk with their own fighters, they can hail the Death Star on an Imp freq. Naturally, they never did that. But then, Leia's probably not thinking such things at that moment, understandably.

So why is the situation different with Alderaan you ask? Well, for one, Alderaan didn't have a planet crushing superlaser pointed at the Death Star. And unlike the Death Star, Alderaan isn't a military target. If a nuke is pointed at a city, and you destroy the facility that the nuke is in, civilians and all, is it a defensive measure? Or is it murder (to prevent the worse evil of the slaughter of the civilians in the city)?

It is a munitions dump being converted into a recruiting and perhaps later training post as well.

There's the question of options. The Rebellion didn't have a lot of options. Obey the Empire or Die.

The fate of every armed Rebellion. Go on.

The Empire on the other hand had the vast infastructure of the Galaxy and the Sith Powers of the Dark Emperor Palpatine. They could vary their level of Force.

What other level of Force can reach a planet protected by that monster of a planetary shield.

They could even choose benevolence (pardon the planet in exchange for pledges of loyalty and opening of their archives or something along those lines, as an example).

Pledges of loyalty? Don't make me laugh. The fucking Aldies offered them once, to the point of sending Senators. Senators that spied and diverted funds to the Rebels. Honestly, Alderaan's credibility for these pledges is in the dirt, thanks to the Organa family.

They could even have held Princess Leia for ransom.

Ransom? Of what? Money? The Empire has all the money. The surrender of the Rebellion? Leia is valuable, but not that valuable.

Or they could park themselves in orbit around Alderaan and make their demands to the planet (hell, they don't need a DeathStar for that, three ISD's will do in a pinch). Think!

Three ISDs cannot enforce their will on that planetary shield. Even as they threaten, the Aldies would buckle down for a long blockade and commence wire transfers to everyone they can reach.

And any possible negotiations were kind of cut short as the Aldies raised their middle fingers and their shield. Fortunately for the Empire, they had the Death Star. Unfortunately for them, they then got it blown up, so they lost that Deterrent effect, looked like idiots ... etc.

If they were honestly going by some axiom that all "traitor planets" must be wiped out, they would going to slaughter trillions more with that infernal station. Maybe the deaths of the military onboard (heck, throw in hypothetical conscripts and civilians onboard too) was worth it in sheer numbers.

Not in Tarkin, the Decider of this Action's mind. He really thinks the Rebellion would quiet down. Hardly illogical given the new stakes of this game. So this could easily be the last two billion.

And don't tell me that if the Rebellion was crushed they wouldn't stop using it. Eventually the fear of the Empire will die down and they'll need to make another demonstration to "renew" their scary social contract.

Prove that one. I really doubt any government would dare do so, at least not for the next hundred years. The Force used for Deterrence continues to exist, so does the Fear/Awe/Respect that force generates. Did the threat of Deterrence somehow diminish between the US and the Soviet Union just because the nukes had been there sitting for awhile.

So no attempt at negotiation (Tarkin's "deal" [lie] to Leia was a foregone conclusion even if you count that),

Considering the demands of the Group Leia was in, Negotiation from the Government viewpoint is pointless, for they don't have even halfway acceptable demands. They aren't only calling for one clause. They are calling for the Emperor to resign. Really, how many Emperors can choke that one down.

instead they blow up the whole planet as a demonstration. It's clear to me now that the issue is simply rule by fear.

Rule by fear is the only option for those who cannot Respect or are not naturally Law-Abiding.

You kill some random person (call them bad in the back of your mind if it makes pulling the trigger easier) and then say "don't let that happen to you" to everyone else.

They are bad, from the Imperial POV.

But then if there's nothing a person can do ('stay loyal, no thoughtcrime against big brother and you'll be okay...'), then they start thinking, hmmm, maybe if we all rush the guy with the gun, sure some of us will get shot, but it will be worth it to be rid of him. As I see it, the Empire caused the Rebellion by their switch to rule by fear. I'll take a corrupt democracy over rule by fear anyday. Who needs external threats when your own government may kill you & your family/friends/neighbors as a 'demonstration' or 'example.'

OR they start thinking. Big Brother ain't all that bad. I think I'd just learn to be Good.

With all this Imperial apologist BS, I'm shocked that there hasn't been a claim that Alderaan was secretly building their own Death Star, and that the DS was actually a nursery for orphans (yes, I read the joke site).

This is SDN. Even the so-called extremists are very rational by standards anywhere else

[Lord of the Farce]

It's not fair to maximize the DS population and minimize the Alderaan population. Why would a space station have more people on it than earth, but an earth-clone would have many times less? That's my beef with it.

Except that it is (obviously) not in the Rebel Alliance's interest to underestimate Alderaan's population. Hell, this is what the Databank has to say about it (emphasis my):

Unlike the crowded Core worlds like Coruscant, Alderaanian society struck a harmonious balance between urban centers and undisturbed wilderness.
-snip
The few metropolitan areas of the planet were designed in such a way to complement their surroundings.

Does that sound remotely like a planet of super-population?

How does that have anything to do with anything? Killing 2 billion civilians as an interrogation tactic still qualifies as mass murder. Debating Alderaan's population doesn't change that fact.

Well excuse me for pointing out the flaw in Kurgan's take on Alderaan's likely population numbers. Maybe you would prefer me to pretend that Alderaan would be one of the SW planets with super-populations?

In fact, you've just caused me to look further into this, and guess what I've found?

With a single blast, Alderaan was reduced to rubble, and its population, numbering in the millions, was killed in the blast.

[Rogue 9]

But if you want the Full-War Clause, then Alderaan is merely an act of Strategic Bombing of a Munitions site which unfortunately, due to the "hard" nature of the target, produced a lot of collateral damage. While in Full War, of course the Rebels blowing up the DS is legitimate, but you already thought that whether this is Full War or not, so that doesn't help you much. But that also legitimizes the Empire's blowing up Alderaan as a Enemy Strategic Target that fakes being part of them, so that's a net gain for us.

Bullshit. Alderaan was hardly one big munitions dump, and the Death Star was massive overkill if all they wanted was to simply stop the transfer of munitions. However, it is a point of fact that this is not what they wanted, but rather wished to 1.) make Leia talk and 2.) make a demonstration of force.

Except that it is (obviously) not in the Rebel Alliance's interest to underestimate Alderaan's population. Hell, this is what the Databank has to say about it (emphasis my): Does that sound remotely like a planet of super-population?

How does that have anything to do with anything? Killing 2 billion civilians as an interrogation tactic still qualifies as mass murder. Debating Alderaan's population doesn't change that fact.

Well excuse me for pointing out the flaw in Kurgan's take on Alderaan's likely population numbers. Maybe you would prefer me to pretend that Alderaan would be one of the SW planets with super-populations?

In fact, you've just caused me to look further into this, and guess what I've found?

With a single blast, Alderaan was reduced to rubble, and its population, numbering in the millions, was killed in the blast.

Still doesn't make it not cold blooded mass murder. Strike three.

[Sonnenburg]

The full name of the organization was the Alliance to Restore the Republic. The short name for this was the Alliance. Rebellion and Rebel Alliance was how it was referred to by the Empire. And you call yourself a Warsie. *Slap*

Strange then, that this is not referred to but in what is probably going to be a very obscure source (which the Databank then incorporated), and they call themselves the Rebel Alliance.

Where do they do that?

[Lord of the Farce]

Well excuse me for pointing out the flaw in Kurgan's take on Alderaan's likely population numbers. Maybe you would prefer me to pretend that Alderaan would be one of the SW planets with super-populations?

In fact, you've just caused me to look further into this, and guess what I've found?

With a single blast, Alderaan was reduced to rubble, and its population, numbering in the millions, was killed in the blast.

Still doesn't make it not cold blooded mass murder. Strike three.

In other words: "I don't care that you are merely providing corrections to unsound guesstimates, especially if they can be used to contribute to damaging my stance on the topic! Strike Four! Five! Six!!!"