WoT: Why are the Aiel so Über?

[Symmetry]

But in real life Spannish sword and bucklermen beat pikemen when Spain and France were squabbling over Italy (its in The Prince and I think, one of Kegan's books off the top of my head). They used their speed and got into close quarters where they cut them apart.

Gah, sorry to repeat you, I should read all the posts before replying, but I really didn't think other people knew about Spanish infantry.

[Alex Moon]

Artur Hawkwing was considered the 'golden age' of military skill. Since then things have been in decline.

Mostly because of population and resource dimishments. The population is Hawkwing's day was at the pinnacle of what could be achieved with out an industrial tech-base. As that was lost in the Hundred Years war the means for the sophisticated standing armies was lost outside of the Borderlands.

I disagree. The Trolloc wars were far more destructive and lasted far longer, yet the world recovered to a much greater extent in the thousand years between their end and the rise of Hawkwing than they did in the thousand years since the War of the Hundred Years. I would place the blame squarly on the rise in power of noble families during the Hundred Years' War, which destroyed any political unity for most nations. No ruler is capable of raising an army larger than several thousand without resorting to peasent levies by various noble families. Even in Andor, which came out of the wars as one of the strongest nations, obtaining the throne requires the military backing of a majority of the major houses.

Actually, that should really be the majority of Tear and Cairhairen's; both had the competent troops buried under well connected hacks. The Borderlands, Andor, Illian, and the Seanchan are all tough and competent. All of them have merit driven militaries that train hard and aren't riddled with internal politics. The Whitecloaks might be included with that, but it's hard to say.

I though I had made clear that I though the Borderlanders were an exception but apparently I didn't. I do think they are more competant than most others due to their constant war with the blight. I didn't mean to include the Seanchan as incompetent, as I was talking about those nations that fought in the Aiel War. As for Andor and Illian, they seem to follow the same pattern as other nations. They have a core of skilled soldiers (Queen's Guards and the Companions) but still rely on half-trained reservists and house armsmen for the bulk of their forces.

[Stormbringer]

I disagree. The Trolloc wars were far more destructive and lasted far longer, yet the world recovered to a much greater extent in the thousand years between their end and the rise of Hawkwing than they did in the thousand years since the War of the Hundred Years.

The more destructive is debateable, and while it lasted longer the worst part of it was actually the last hundred years of it or so. So the actual damage, and the time to cope, was longer.

I would place the blame squarly on the rise in power of noble families during the Hundred Years' War, which destroyed any political unity for most nations.

Yes, it did. Between that and the ravages of a hundred and twelve years of constant civil war that effect is rather likely. I rather think the century plus civil war, and the horrors there in, had more to do with it than the noble class. After all there was a strong noble class even before then.

No ruler is capable of raising an army larger than several thousand without resorting to peasent levies by various noble families. Even in Andor, which came out of the wars as one of the strongest nations, obtaining the throne requires the military backing of a majority of the major houses.

Which is a result of the simple fact that the population was decimated, decimated again, and then decimated a few more times over just for good measure. Prior to Hawking civilization clearly lived to a standard as good as, if not better than, Imperial Rome's. They had the social infastructure to have a large thriving civilization. The War of the Hundred Years effectively wiped that out, as we see in the continual population decline ever since then.

The reason for the military decline is directly tied to the fact they simply don't have the people to maintain a large standing military.

I though I had made clear that I though the Borderlanders were an exception but apparently I didn't. I do think they are more competant than most others due to their constant war with the blight. I didn't mean to include the Seanchan as incompetent, as I was talking about those nations that fought in the Aiel War.

You didn't make it clear that you had excepted the Borderlanders and Seanchan. Glad to clear up that as they have both demonstrated their competence.

As for the lesser nations in the Aiel War, that's because they were lesser nations. Aside from the nations established as competent (Borderlands, Andor, Illian, the Whitecloaks, and possibly Ghealdan) most were nations considered military jokes or power simply by virtue of size. So it's not suprising they were badly lead and had less then spectacular performances.

As for Andor and Illian, they seem to follow the same pattern as other nations. They have a core of skilled soldiers (Queen's Guards and the Companions) but still rely on half-trained reservists and house armsmen for the bulk of their forces.

Yes they do. But unlike the Tairen and Cairhairen, Andoran and Illianer troops are lead by virtue of merit not blood. That means the armsmen tend to be better trained and definitely better disciplined and certainly lead and treated properly. Aside from some few, they still aren't proper soldiers but they still get a lot better mileage than compared to Tairen and Cairharien troops in the same boat.