Why didn't Qui-Gon just forcibly free Schmi?

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-10-23 05:07am

It is kind of confusing that they would expect this young force-user to want to join the very group that allows his mother to stay in bondage while claiming moral supremacy. I would expect a response more along the lines of "Wait... you want me to save your precious Force, but you can't be arsed into freeing my mother? Fuck you."

It also didn't help that Obiwan rented her out for a night.

Adrian Tullberg · Post by **Adrian Tullberg** » 2004-10-23 05:23am

Kurgan wrote:Still, why couldn't they have sent some fool down there with a bucket of gemstones (or whatever people like Watto would accept as currency) to buy Shmi's freedom?

What would be so difficult in that? They've got hyperdrive for crying out loud! Padme's got a heart, she can raise the money or dip into her own coffers for it if necessary... it's in character.

The fact that nobody did anything for 10 years just screams 'plot hole.'

; )

Same here. Would it be too hard for the Queen to say 'that kid who shot down one of those big ships? His mother's in slavery on planet Sandpit. Take my Amex, buy her, along with a first class ticket and get her a decent place on Corursant and a job in our embassy as a domestic. And a bucket of KFC while you're at it.'

Logically, I would have had Shimi die of natural causes, and this emotional distress causing Anakin to grow more dependent on Padme as a result.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-10-23 08:12am

Yeah, this is the only real plot-hole I can find, along with "Why didn´t Han pay back Jabba in the three years between ANH and ESB"....

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-10-23 10:06am

For the record, after QuiGon brought it, Obi-one DID actualy arange for Shmi to be freed. Its in 'Tattoine Ghost' in Shmi's journals, Leia reading through it finds out that Obi-one 'aranged' for some absurdly valuable energy source to be shiped to her. Which in fact was responsable for Watto's eye damage when he 'peaked' when he should not have. IIRC she used that to finance her purchase from Watto to Bail, after they fell in love. He then imediatly freed her afterwards.

The book also has her sending a message to the Jedi Temple on Courscant, after saving for close to a year to aford the insane cost of the Holonet, just trying to get Anikin to say hi. The message she gets back is from cleark who says he is showing great promise in his training and moving well forward, but they don't allow parents and children to communicate, thankyou and goodby.

Man the old Jedi sucked. I'm glad Luke freely refedined the Order to include family. The OR Jedi really had a MAJOR attitude problem. They took Kids from their parents at an early age. Though I'm not entirely sure if they had the legal authority to take them regardless if they had force ability. I think its implied they COULD and did though. And that they very much tried to build distance between their family and role as a Jedi. I think there is a sceen in 'Survivors Quest' which deals with that.

But I get a happy fealing when I think of Vegrees reaction to Lukes New Jedi Order and the fact that they happily marry and have Children. Anything that upsets her though is fine with me. Damn Traitor.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-23 10:15am

Chris OFarrell wrote:Man the old Jedi sucked. I'm glad Luke freely refedined the Order to include family. The OR Jedi really had a MAJOR attitude problem.

I believe that's the point. Which is odd; the OT makes the Jedi Order out to be the Good Guys, while the PT does nothing but cast them in a negative light. Peculiar.

They took Kids from their parents at an early age. Though I'm not entirely sure if they had the legal authority to take them regardless if they had force ability.

Legal authority is a good bet to make; I assume you meant 'moral authority'? The Jedi seemed justified in doing what appeared to be standard practice, which would imply full legal approval. Whether they're moral in doing so is another matter. Would Shmi still be alive if Anakin hadn't been taken away? Hard to say.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-10-23 10:18am

The only reason (that I think of) forbide the Jedi to marry(and have family) is that children(or SO) can become a weakness for a Jedi. What would you not do to save them? And the Dark side makes you think that it's the right thing to use the Force to destroy your enemies.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-10-23 10:37am

Stofsk wrote: I believe that's the point. Which is odd; the OT makes the Jedi Order out to be the Good Guys, while the PT does nothing but cast them in a negative light. Peculiar.

Of course in retrospect in the OT all we have is Ben, who is even in the PT shown to be the 'wise and caring' guy. And Vader who isn't exactly nice. And the Empire, which is just a LITTLE more evil then the Jedi. So its not surprsing people might look back upon them with an attitude of 'they aint so bad'...

Legal authority is a good bet to make; I assume you meant 'moral authority'?

No I actualy meant if they had the legal authority to take them by FORCE. If the Parents didn't want to let the Kid go, and if even the Kid didn't want to go, if they had legal powers to take them to the accedemy and take custody of them.

The Jedi seemed justified in doing what appeared to be standard practice, which would imply full legal approval.

Thats the point. I'm just not sure if we have an example of the Jedi taking the kids against the Parents will. We have a partial example in 'Survivors Quest'. A family worked for the Jedi as techies, maintaining spacecraft and such for them. They had their kids tested for Force ability when they came of age. One of them had Force potentional and was accepted as a trainee.

Of course then they lost their jobs because they could not be allowed near their Kid. One day years and years later in a public event, the Parents waved to their Kid who saw them...but looked at them almost as if she didn't know who they were. Then another eldar jedi walked in and led her away.

Its disturbing because it all appears to point to a massive culture of the Jedi cutting off every memory, every thought to the families of the order. If you look at Ani. Despite his AWESOME Force potentional and power, the signs pointing to him meeting prophecy, the Council rejected him out of hand. Why? Because he was too old to be maluable in their hands and he had strong fealings about his Mother! The Jedi truely appear to brainwash their addepts into forgetting about their parents, focusing them on complete service to the Republic. Which in the end was responsable for cutting them off from the commen person, making it easy for Palpy to isolate and deal with them.

And of course trying to FORCE him to forget about his Mother in the end started a chain of events that quite possibly sent him RIGHT down the Dark Side. Thankyou very much Yoda.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-10-23 10:46am

Lord Revan wrote:The only reason (that I think of) forbide the Jedi to marry(and have family) is that children(or SO) can become a weakness for a Jedi. What would you not do to save them? And the Dark side makes you think that it's the right thing to use the Force to destroy your enemies.

*shrug*

Same thing people do today if their Children are used against them. Frankly I think that it would be a highly unlikly means of attack against the Jedi. ESPECIALY if the Republic made a very clear point and example of anyone who tried it. Make them effectivly 'off limits' to even the most crazy people. Because 'no-one is THAT crazy'.

And frankly I think Luke is right in that a family makes Jedi more of a 'Human' (or insert race) being. It helps them relate to the Galaxy as a whole rather then get into the 'God' complex. It was acutaly one of the few quotes from a KJA book I remember. When Mon Mometha is talking to Luke about the reviving the Jedi order in 'Jedi Serach'. She says that an 'elite' group of Jedi in an 'ivory tower' is far more dangerous then no Jedi at all.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-10-23 02:35pm

There will always be somebody who's "that" crazy (like the Sith), but I agree it's poor excuse. I wanted show that's probaly the reason how the Jedi order justisfied forbiding marriage and family. Logical since since the dark side fuels your fears, but like you say it's cost then it's worth.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-23 03:38pm

Well think about this: If a jedi had some kids... and then one day the kids were kidnapped by some gangsters, or religious extremists (analogous to Earth's islamic militants) etc. threatening them with death.. you cannot deny there would be a very strong urge on the parent to lock and load, and go hunt 'em down and free their child.

This might very well involve their anger getting the better of them and slaughtering a few of the kidnappers.

Whether this would lead them down the dark side I don't know. The Jedi Order were overly paranoid about people going to the dark side, and that I think was part of their problem.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-10-23 04:19pm

Jean Paul wrote:Whether this would lead them down the dark side I don't know. The Jedi Order were overly paranoid about people going to the dark side, and that I think was part of their problem.

The dark side of the Force is a bit like the One Ring from LotR, it tells you use your power to do good, if you give in you become slave of your own lust for power(and of the Dark side which feeds this lust). that's why the Jedi are so paranoid about it, you think you're doing good, but in the end you'll end up betraying every thing you belived in and worked for.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-23 04:47pm

That is an interesting theory.

Maybe he chose to have them wipe his mind to erase the pain?

I get the impression from AOTC (can't recall if there was anything more in the novel) that the whole "mom died" incident wasn't known to the other Jedi (though you'd think they would have found out soon enough, still all they have is the vague notion of "pain, terrible pain"). He's hiding the marriage thing from 'em too.

But, in the end, for the sake of justice, freeing a slave with money isn't against the Republic's laws, it wouldn't infringe on the rules of the Hutt's, etc. It would be perfectly legit. Apart from easing Anakin's mind about his mommy, at least a sentient being would be freed from captivity.

Then again, maybe Clieg Lars got wired the money from Padme's Relief Foundation or something? No indication of that, but it might be a possible fix...

I can maybe see the conservative Jedi saying "bah who cares, not our problem" but somebody like Padme, who has a thing for this little kid and cases like his would seem to be a way to get around all that.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-10-23 05:04pm

The arrogance and moral bankrupcy of the Jedi Order of the late Old Republic dovetails perfectly with the decline of the Republic itself. Yoda practically says as much at one point.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-10-25 06:17pm

Well, as for the Hutt dominion, consider the fact that the OR's military spinelessness is a massive plot hole in and of itself. They'd had a history of repeated total warfare with threats both internal and external (Mandalorian War, multiple Sith engagements, Great Hyperspace War, etc), and then we have the PT OR, which...doesn't seem to have a standing army of any sort. The Empire, on the other hand, has a mindboggling overgunned military, making it far, far less likely that the Hutts want to try something. As for Shmi...yeah, major plot hole, and before you mention Anakin getting Revan'd, do you have any supportting source for that?

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-10-25 06:22pm

All of a sudden I just had a flash-connection between the Old Order and the Tetragrammaton Clerics out of Equilibrium, in the sense of 'Emotion is a risk, ergo it is not permitted.' Creepy. On the other hand, Preston with a lightsaber...

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-25 06:47pm

White Haven wrote:Well, as for the Hutt dominion, consider the fact that the OR's military spinelessness is a massive plot hole in and of itself. They'd had a history of repeated total warfare with threats both internal and external (Mandalorian War, multiple Sith engagements, Great Hyperspace War, etc), and then we have the PT OR, which...doesn't seem to have a standing army of any sort. The Empire, on the other hand, has a mindboggling overgunned military, making it far, far less likely that the Hutts want to try something. As for Shmi...yeah, major plot hole, and before you mention Anakin getting Revan'd, do you have any supportting source for that?

They still had a military, but it as more ceremonial as I see it, able to deal with threats to individual systems, but not the whole galaxy at once; that would fall to the Clone Army.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-10-25 07:40pm

The Mandolorian War happened 4,000 years ago. If they had been at peace for the last 1,000 years, the military could have slowly been reduced until it is now a mostly ceremonial force over the course of several centuries of constant peace.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-10-25 08:37pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:It also didn't help that Obiwan rented her out for a night.

Whaa--???

Explain this, please.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-26 01:59am

Did the Republic really have a ceremonial military (I wouldn't count the Senate guard and their trusty spears to be a "military"), or did they just rely on each member system to contribute troops?

I sort of thought it was the latter. More like a Confederacy, than a Federal Republic. I could be wrong, of course. But the way they make the "Grand Army of the Republic" seem so radical in AOTC... one wonders.

Yes, there's the Jedi Order. But somebody is bound to leap up and say "they are not soldiers! they are incompetent militarily and they say they aren't soldiers" so I won't go there. ; )

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-10-26 09:14am

Kurgan wrote:Did the Republic really have a ceremonial military (I wouldn't count the Senate guard and their trusty spears to be a "military"), or did they just rely on each member system to contribute troops?

I sort of thought it was the latter. More like a Confederacy, than a Federal Republic. I could be wrong, of course. But the way they make the "Grand Army of the Republic" seem so radical in AOTC... one wonders.

Yes, there's the Jedi Order. But somebody is bound to leap up and say "they are not soldiers! they are incompetent militarily and they say they aren't soldiers" so I won't go there. ; )

Well, in TPM we see uniformed pilots in the Republic Cruiser at the beginning (belonging to the Republic Diplomatic Corps), and in AOTC, two people in stolen uniforms (can´t remember where those uniforms belonged). Then there´s the Senate Guards (with rifles), and the Jedi as "interstellar police". Other than that, I´m guessing sector forces (like Kuat) and planetary forces (like on Naboo). Not much more.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-10-26 09:46am

Stofsk wrote: I believe that's the point. Which is odd; the OT makes the Jedi Order out to be the Good Guys, while the PT does nothing but cast them in a negative light. Peculiar.

I believe Robert Brown idea on how the Jedi Order was over arrogrant and prideful fulfills this description. Even in the 80s, with the 3 trilogies concept, we were being treated to the idea of the entire story arc being a combination of The Adventures of Luke Skywalker(canonised as per ANH novelisation), the plausible Adventures of Obi-wan Kenobi and the Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

Thats the point. I'm just not sure if we have an example of the Jedi taking the kids against the Parents will.

Depending on how one views holonet.com, there was an article that "took place" slightly before Episode II on the "abduction of her baby" by the Jedi, and a parant crusade to force the Jedi Order to return her child.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-27 04:30am

Before AOTC, I kind of assumed that the Jedi Order was like many monastic orders on earth. At a certain age (say, the "age of reason" in a society, if they have to be young, per Luke's being "too old" in his 20's), they just decide to join the monastery. Take the vows, etc.

Until AOTC we didn't know about the celibacy thing, and neither did the EU writers. So the retcon is that they just changed things, or didn't know about it, but weren't about to change it because this might be a reform, and they'd have to ask everyone to get divorced and give their kids up for adoption (pissing everyone off).

But using the example of the modern monasteries above, obviously they walk a fine line of discipline. I think most of the time they can have contact with families, but they have no illusions about being able to marry and have children, etc. If a person wants to do that, they're out. Granted there are abuses, like people secretly having affairs or abusing people or being greedy, etc. but for the most part, those in it find a way to live according to their rules.

I do like the example of the "significant others present a danger" thing. It's the reason why Super Heroes have their loved ones counted as "disadvantages" in RPG's. Because the villians can paralyze the hero or distract him by threatening the people he cares about. If the level of attachment to a Jedi's family is no greater than to any other Galactic Citizen, the usefulness of this tactic being useful by the Jedi's enemies is diminished.

The whole "passion leads to the Darkside" thing is debatable, but I can see evidence for that from the films too. This correspondes with some Hindu and Buddhist thinking on the issue as well.