OK, I know that Saxton didn't authorize this in HIS ITW

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Even assuming you are correct, the hunting down and dispatching of a few individuals who thrive on chaos, violence, and death in no way compares to the wanton murder of billions if not trillions of innocent individuals as committed by the Empire.

Yet when those few people represent a religion, and you wipe them out, it is genocide.

Let me spell this out for you. You cannot justify what the Empire did.

Non-SoDwise, yes. You see, every time when a new fork appears, it is almost granted the writers will choose one that vilifies the Empire. Therefore, eventually, they are going to seal off everything we have.

What the New Republic did afterwards is irrelevant; what the Alliance, a separate organization, did is irrelevant; all that matters is what the Empire did of it's own accord.

Not really. The Alliance's goal is the New Republic, which means it has to be responsible for what comes for it. Rule #1 of starting a Revolution that kills Trillions: MAKE SURE YOUR ALTERNATIVE IS BETTER.

The end purpose of the Empire, lest we forget, was to subjugate every last being for the purpose of serving as a Force battery for the Emperor's dark side machinations.

1) Most people like the IMperial State, not the Emperor.
2) Much as we instinctively abhor that concept of him using us as batteries, logically, it might be pretty harmless. The power basically takes the energy that you have no use for (because you ain't a Force user). There is supposedly a negative effect, but it is so small it is not even codified into the simulating game rules. When he's sucking from 14 quadrillion people, I just don't see them getting very harmed by that one man's Dark exertions.

"OK, Palpy. You've caused the Clone Wars ... re-rated X species as subsentient ... allowed GM Tarkin to destroy Alderaan ... blah blah ... what is your ultimate goal?"
"I intend to rule the Galaxy forever."
"And how do you do that."
"Uh, I intend to use clones that I will transfer my soul to ... and I will lap up the Force energy you guys routinely trash out anyway, so it should hurt you less than monetary taxes. I will also divide the negative effects of my exertions into 14 quadrillion parts and send them to you. You know, those Clone Bodies die out too quickly as it is, and really for all practicable purposes, you will get hurt less than if you choose to smoke a single cigarette - that's supposed to take 7 or so minutes out of your life, right?"

The Death Stars, Sun Crusher, Galaxy Gun and the uses they were put to or were meant to be put to stand testimony by themselves.

They were nice tools of order. Because someone is not obeying Order, they had to be put to Destruction.

Add to this Caamas, Honoghr

I'm sure Honoghr was kind of an accident which they exploited.

and the enslavement of the native Noghri,

Look on the bright side ... if it wasn't for them, they'd be dead. As far as the Noghri were concerned, they were in service, but not really in slavery.

the Krytos virus,

Which wasn't meant to kill (it is treatable, unlike many biological and chemical agents). It was a weapon meant to destabilize Isard's obvious enemy, the Rebellion. Not nice, but it could easily be made much worse.

the placement of the Lusankya in such a manner as to force it to kill hundreds of millions of people at the barest minimum when it left Coruscant, the restriction of all interstellar communications through the Holonet lockdown, I could go on and on all day.

I doubt they originally planned to have to move it that quickly. And restriction of interstellar comms is bad, but hardly any atrocity (not to mention there are still Providers).

There is a pile of evidence that shows unequivocally that the Empire was an evil entity. What the Alliance or New Republic was is irrelevant to that central fact.

What those two did versus the level of evil in the Empire decides whether it is worth it. To put it in simple language:

Letting Empire stay. Total casualty count: 3 or so billion dead, 8 billion enslaved (example).

Destroying Empire:
GCW: 100 Trillion dead
Incompetently handled Vong defense: 365 trillion dead

Umm, umm... tell me, what did we destroy the Empire for again? Is that what we gave our lives for?

Again, the Empire won't nearly look so good had the NR been worth something.

[Rogue 9]

They were nice tools of order. Because someone is not obeying Order, they had to be put to Destruction.

There we have it. Disobedience is worthy of death. Thank you for proving how immoral you are, there's the door, have a nice day.

The purpose of government is to protect it's citizens. If a government fails to protect it's citizens, it is a failure. If a government actively wipes out it's citizens, then it is purposely abusing its power to flaunt its primary duty and in fact counteract its purpose. The Empire was a spectacular failure in the areas where it matters. So was the NR, if not so much (you didn't see Mon Calamari cruisers BDZing random planets simply because of protests), but this is totally irrelevant to the Empire.

[Stofsk]

Even assuming you are correct, the hunting down and dispatching of a few individuals who thrive on chaos, violence, and death in no way compares to the wanton murder of billions if not trillions of innocent individuals as committed by the Empire.

Yet when those few people represent a religion, and you wipe them out, it is genocide.

And when the empire wipes out a group with a different cultural or political makeup, that still makes it genocide.

[EDIT] Ah, here's the definition:

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.

*snip*

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Tarkin's action onboard and in command of the Death Star falls under number 1: he had the intent to destroy the whole world, which would at the very least fall under a good chunck of the Alderaanian population. And he did it by (a), (b) - mentally torturing Leia with the 'choice' which he had no intention of giving her (in other words he taunted her with compliance under the condition that her world would be spared, which was a deliberate falsehood, since he had no intention of honouring it), most definitely (c), and I would also say getting your atoms scattered by a superlaser also prevents you from reproducing, so (d) is observed as well.

The Empire committed genocide.

[EDIT 2] Oh yeah, Alderaan falls under 'national group'. Double check and mate.

[EDIT 3] Actually, Consequences was the one who claimed that it wasn't 'genocide', so maybe you never thought otherwise. My point still stands: the Empire committed genocide.

[Captain Cyran]

I am sorry. I missed how blowing up Alderaan defeated the Vong? Could you lay that out for me? I fail to see how the Empire mass murdering its own citizens can be constatuted as defending them.

Empire stops rebellion> empire still exists>empire stomps Vong>trillions don't die.

Rebellion wins>empire goes away>rebellion gets buttfucked by YV> Trillions die

And, as we all knew. The only reason the rebellion beat the Death Star was because it blew up Alderaan. Get your head out of your ass. Alderaan and the death of the Empire have nothing to do with each other.

[Captain Cyran]

Even assuming you are correct, the hunting down and dispatching of a few individuals who thrive on chaos, violence, and death in no way compares to the wanton murder of billions if not trillions of innocent individuals as committed by the Empire.

Yet when those few people represent a religion, and you wipe them out, it is genocide.

Let me spell this out for you. You cannot justify what the Empire did.

Non-SoDwise, yes. You see, every time when a new fork appears, it is almost granted the writers will choose one that vilifies the Empire. Therefore, eventually, they are going to seal off everything we have.

So you're openly admiting that basically, you're wrong. It's just a matter of how long it takes before you've got nothing canon to help your arguments. Not that you did in the first place.

What the New Republic did afterwards is irrelevant; what the Alliance, a separate organization, did is irrelevant; all that matters is what the Empire did of it's own accord.

Not really. The Alliance's goal is the New Republic, which means it has to be responsible for what comes for it. Rule #1 of starting a Revolution that kills Trillions: MAKE SURE YOUR ALTERNATIVE IS BETTER.

It WAS better for the people. Or was Coruscant celebrating at the end of RotJ because they got misinformation about the battle and thought that the Empire had won?

The end purpose of the Empire, lest we forget, was to subjugate every last being for the purpose of serving as a Force battery for the Emperor's dark side machinations.

1) Most people like the IMperial State, not the Emperor.

Again, I point out the celebrations at the end of RotJ.

2) Much as we instinctively abhor that concept of him using us as batteries, logically, it might be pretty harmless. The power basically takes the energy that you have no use for (because you ain't a Force user). There is supposedly a negative effect, but it is so small it is not even codified into the simulating game rules. When he's sucking from 14 quadrillion people, I just don't see them getting very harmed by that one man's Dark exertions.

And what would he be doing with all that power? Oh yes, killing millions. And you have no proof that he wouldn't suck as much power as he could from as many people as he could. Considering Palpatines past about caring for people. I don't think he's gonna go "Uh oh, I'm hurting people for this power. Better stop."

"OK, Palpy. You've caused the Clone Wars ... re-rated X species as subsentient ... allowed GM Tarkin to destroy Alderaan ... blah blah ... what is your ultimate goal?"
"I intend to rule the Galaxy forever."
"And how do you do that."
"Uh, I intend to use clones that I will transfer my soul to ... and I will lap up the Force energy you guys routinely trash out anyway, so it should hurt you less than monetary taxes. I will also divide the negative effects of my exertions into 14 quadrillion parts and send them to you. You know, those Clone Bodies die out too quickly as it is, and really for all practicable purposes, you will get hurt less than if you choose to smoke a single cigarette - that's supposed to take 7 or so minutes out of your life, right?"

Thank you for the complete bullshit. Move along people, nothing to see here. For one, those clones were supposed to last a lot longer than they did. It was only due to one man ruining the batch that the clones were so short lived. You have no proof that the force energy everyone exerts is not in any way important to us. You have no proof that he would spread his exertion over 14 quadrillion people to lessen the effects on citizens, in fact considering his past love for people it's extremely unlikely he'd give a damn.

The Death Stars, Sun Crusher, Galaxy Gun and the uses they were put to or were meant to be put to stand testimony by themselves.

They were nice tools of order. Because someone is not obeying Order, they had to be put to Destruction.

HEIL HITLER!

Next...

Add to this Caamas, Honoghr

I'm sure Honoghr was kind of an accident which they exploited.

Of course you are. Of course, you also believe that Tarkin had no choice in crushing the protestors, and no choice in destroying Alderaan. Excuse me if no one believes you.

and the enslavement of the native Noghri,

Look on the bright side ... if it wasn't for them, they'd be dead. As far as the Noghri were concerned, they were in service, but not really in slavery.

I have to give him this. Without imperial involvement the Noghri would have died. However, there is no proof that the empire did this for any reason other than to use the Noghri. So it's kind of a moot point.

the Krytos virus,

Which wasn't meant to kill (it is treatable, unlike many biological and chemical agents). It was a weapon meant to destabilize Isard's obvious enemy, the Rebellion. Not nice, but it could easily be made much worse.

"It's alright, because it was supposed to ruin the Rebellion and cause all sorts of hell for several trillion people instead of letting a somewhat peaceful transition occur. Nevermind that I advocate the rebellion letting peaceful transitions occur, the Empire doesn't have to." And please don't spout "Well, it could have been worse." bullshit in a sad attempt to make it not sound so bad.

the placement of the Lusankya in such a manner as to force it to kill hundreds of millions of people at the barest minimum when it left Coruscant, the restriction of all interstellar communications through the Holonet lockdown, I could go on and on all day.

I doubt they originally planned to have to move it that quickly. And restriction of interstellar comms is bad, but hardly any atrocity (not to mention there are still Providers).

Nice way to dodge the millions of deaths thing. And how ELSE could they possibly get that ship out of there short of fast? Unless you are assuming that the empire would actually warn people about it. Even then they'd only warn the citizens up top, leaving the several million on the lower decks to die.

There is a pile of evidence that shows unequivocally that the Empire was an evil entity. What the Alliance or New Republic was is irrelevant to that central fact.

What those two did versus the level of evil in the Empire decides whether it is worth it. To put it in simple language:

Letting Empire stay. Total casualty count: 3 or so billion dead, 8 billion enslaved (example).

Destroying Empire:
GCW: 100 Trillion dead
Incompetently handled Vong defense: 365 trillion dead

Umm, umm... tell me, what did we destroy the Empire for again? Is that what we gave our lives for?

Again, the Empire won't nearly look so good had the NR been worth something.

Only 8 billion enslaved? I think you overestimate their chances!

I will agree that the NR did manage to fuck up after they took over. But that in no way makes the Empire the good guys. After Palpatine was taken out the empire reverted to a warlord system, slaughtering millions of military and civilians. The rebellion actually had little to do with the large amount of deaths. For another thing, since you keep bitching about the legitimacy of the Empire and how that means the rebels should have done nothing. What about after the New Republic became the legitimate power in the galaxy, hmmm?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

So you're openly admiting that basically, you're wrong. It's just a matter of how long it takes before you've got nothing canon to help your arguments. Not that you did in the first place.

Not the same. SoDwise, we take what we have right now and make arguments out of them - and when a change happens, we change the theory. For instance, a few months ago, I could say that had the Ewoks not helped the Rebels, they might well have lived happily ever after in the Sanctuary Moon, and ITW dashed that one. Non SoDwise, we can see trends. So it is like New Canon closing off the holes, and every time there's a hole, you can predict what the authors are likely to choose to fill it.

It WAS better for the people. Or was Coruscant celebrating at the end of RotJ because they got misinformation about the battle and thought that the Empire had won?

1) There's no evidence to show they were the majority.
2) The guys celebrating at Coruscant merely thought it'd be better. And honestly, since the Empire is harsh and no one thinks of it as a utopia, the NR only has a low fence to beat. Honeslty, I still can't understand why they can't leap over cleanly.

1) Most people like the IMperial State, not the Emperor.

I refer to the fucking Imperial Apologist team. Almost no one likes the Emperor.

And what would he be doing with all that power? Oh yes, killing millions.

Proof? Honestly, if I have loyal citizens and I want to use them as batteries, I won't be killing them.

And you have no proof that he wouldn't suck as much power as he could from as many people as he could.

How about maximum power loads? The power spec in fact implies that there is no way to use this power to really hurt someone. We know that there is a limit to how much Force energy you can use in a human body (see Anakin and Dorsk whatever killing themselves in an aura of glow of excess Force energy).

You have no proof that he would spread his exertion over 14 quadrillion people to lessen the effects on citizens, in fact considering his past love for people it's extremely unlikely he'd give a damn.

OK, in fact, the power only has tables going up to 10 million, and the estimated difficulties get quite high, even for Palpy's stats. So he draws from 10 million people at a time (which with quadrillions to choose from means his cycle time would be measured in decades). And there is still no statement on any severe damage - not even when he's only drawing form a few people. Next.

Of course you are. Of course, you also believe that Tarkin had no choice in crushing the protestors, and no choice in destroying Alderaan. Excuse me if no one believes you.

Nobody had as yet been able to come up with a convincing alternative. I've seen, as I recall:
1) Somehow Precision fire the SL to tolerances of less than one in a trillion (and against a maneuvering target - the shield's power at a particular point is constantly shifting slightly)
2) Blockades against a population low enough to be independent
3) Negotiations against terrorists for demands that would bring the downfall of the government (and which government could take that?)
4) Send the ISB, and hope there are only a few thousand traitors on the ground...
5) Send Darth Vader, except how he's supposed to get onto the planet when the Alderaanians are putting the shield up on Imp warships.

As for Honoghr, one would think if they really intentionally crashed the ship someone would have found out and put it in a source by now (and why? Until they touched down, the planet was nothing but a bunch of primitives. The soil is mediocre, and with few special resources.)

But just keep waiting, it is a fork in the road, and eventually, some author will decide to fill it up with a tale about how the Imperials deliberately crashed the ship on the ground.

I have to give him this. Without imperial involvement the Noghri would have died. However, there is no proof that the empire did this for any reason other than to use the Noghri. So it's kind of a moot point.

Umm, pal, no one ever said the Empire was a particular charitable organization. While it'd be nice if they just did it, it is hardly an atrocity to demand something in return.

"It's alright, because it was supposed to ruin the Rebellion and cause all sorts of hell for several trillion people instead of letting a somewhat peaceful transition occur. Nevermind that I advocate the rebellion letting peaceful transitions occur, the Empire doesn't have to." And please don't spout "Well, it could have been worse." bullshit in a sad attempt to make it not sound so bad.

As a servant of the Empire, Isard could hardly have done nothing to stop the guys from taking Coruscant and organizing into a government.

Nice way to dodge the millions of deaths thing. And how ELSE could they possibly get that ship out of there short of fast? Unless you are assuming that the empire would actually warn people about it. Even then they'd only warn the citizens up top, leaving the several million on the lower decks to die.

I'm sure the word would pass through. The strata between the pretty upper and scum lower layers is not a hard line. For instance, a guy at the top may access the top ten levels, a guy five floors down may access the five above and five below. And so on.

Honestly, for pragmatic reasons alone (the Empire is pragmatic, to the point that many like you say it is cruel, and in fact even Imperial apologists think of it as harsh), if they were ever planning to get it out in any kind of hurry, they wouldn't have buried it.

Only 8 billion enslaved? I think you overestimate their chances!

I said example. I doubt the total # of victimes will be over 300 trillion.

I will agree that the NR did manage to fuck up after they took over. But that in no way makes the Empire the good guys. After Palpatine was taken out the empire reverted to a warlord system, slaughtering millions of military and civilians. The rebellion actually had little to do with the large amount of deaths. For another thing, since you keep bitching about the legitimacy of the Empire and how that means the rebels should have done nothing. What about after the New Republic became the legitimate power in the galaxy, hmmm?

The Rebellion, in killing the Emperor's body (his soul floated), incited that Civil War.

There's also a small difference between the NR and the Empire (of the Rebel Alliance era). Most worlds, including such treacherous ones as Alderaan, seem to accept Imperial authority, and even send Senators. The NR, however, is not either not recognized by the Empire, or at best is treated as an enemy state. They most certainly don't send Senators.

And the Rebels could have done something. Just that they shouldn't be so surprised and scream atrocity when the government comes after them with a vengeance.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The Empire committed genocide.

[EDIT 2] Oh yeah, Alderaan falls under 'national group'. Double check and mate.

I guess I could be really anal and say that Alderaan is a State or even a City analogue, but oh well, it won't make a huge practical difference whether it was a "massacre" or "genocide". All that really matters is 2 billion people were killed, so I concede.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

There we have it. Disobedience is worthy of death. Thank you for proving how immoral you are, there's the door, have a nice day.

Do you seriously wish to contend that treason is not worthy of death?

The purpose of government is to protect it's citizens. If a government fails to protect it's citizens, it is a failure.

OK...

If a government actively wipes out it's citizens, then it is purposely abusing its power to flaunt its primary duty and in fact counteract its purpose.

Killing your own loyal citizens is hardly a point-getter, I'd agree. Traitors on the other hand..., but OK, you can say if you somehow did better, maybe the traitor won't be a traitor, so I'd be generous and let you count them in.

The Empire was a spectacular failure in the areas where it matters. So was the NR, if not so much (you didn't see Mon Calamari cruisers BDZing random planets simply because of protests), but this is totally irrelevant to the Empire.

I disagree. Under this game rule, whoever loses fewer citizens "wins":

The Emperor had one major known atrocity, two adding Caamas, so that's a few billion there. The rest is pocket change in comparison.

The NR had no known atrocities. Even if I don't count the GCW, it manages to lose 365 trillion to the Vong. The balance is clear.

[Lord Revan]

the the orginal damage to Honoghr was caused by a crashed ship (damaged during a battle) during the clone wars or shortly before it, so it was accident unless the ship rammed the planet on purpose ("if can't have it, neither can you! Helm course for the surface, ramming speed!"

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Yeah, they got a lot of sympathy points (and as you can obviously tell, a few more than I thought they should have been entitled to). I just made a quick point on Germany, with no intent on comparing it directly with Alderaan.

Okay.

So when the US bombed Hiroshima, that's not genocide? There's certain something unique about both, but they clearly aren't a different species. How different does a culture of a particular city have to be before it is not a mere "massacre" and becomes a "genocide?"

Apparently you did not understand my post. I said that if there was one last city remaining with a single race in it, such as all Native Americans in the world in a city in the US, and the US government decides to bombard the city and kill everyone in it, that is genocide. And that is what the Empire did. Except it missed those who were off-world, and in the analogy it could be that the US missed anyone that was out-of-town. So I suppose it was really near-genocide.

Just reminding people of standards, that we are only 100 or so years more advanced than the Empire, and the Republics too (see below).

We, who have not had a fraction of the history the SW galaxy has, are more advanced than them? That is disturbing. You'd figure after all of that time the SW galaxy would be more advanced than us.

The point is the arbitrary racist standards that the average SW humans have on sentience and the applying slavery/domestication. Because of said arbitrary standards, it becomes very easy to extend that attitude to anything else, using similar arbitrary standards. It is a matter of finding some specious difference to "justify" it.

You can tell I do not agree with this policy. suitability of But then I think droids (at least the third and fourth degree ones) should be rated fully sentient. But does anyone in SW respect that? Maybe one or two does, but that's because they like their droid the way it is, not becaue it is considered an inalienable right for a droid not to be mind-wiped. Most others wipe their droids without a thought.

Every day, TRILLIONS of droids are mind wiped in the GFFA, ending a potential sentience, and effectively killing them in spirit if not in the hull. Perhaps, if we are talking stopping genocide, one can start with the things they can control easily, like this.

So then because everyone mistreats droids, the Empire is justified in mistreating aliens even though not everyone mistreats aliens or agrees with mistreating aliens? The Empire doesn't even have the popular support of the galaxy.

Of course, they are under orders to do so. If you think it is a matter of simple survival, than that goes both ways.

Right, so Imperial soldiers are justified in firing at Rebel soldiers, just as the German soldiers were justified in firing at Allied soldiers. But neither of them are justified in committing atrocities.

Let me ask you this honestly. As a politician, you would not use everything you have, including the Force, to persuade other people to your views? Which is one of the reasons that it is apparently not a good idea for Jedi to become Generals or Politicians - the urge to use the Force to help out is too much. Even when you talk, it is possible your passion would leak into the Force and affect everyone, whether you want to or not.

Emphasis mine. Gee, thanks. I liked how you conveniently conceded it wasn't a good idea for Palpatine to be a politician.

And I really love how you cut out the rest of my argument, never quote the later posts using the same argument you cut out, and completely ignore the point I made. I want you to PROVE to me how Palpatine was somehow morally justified and DID NOT somehow break the law when he used his DARK SIDE FORCE POWERS to MANIPULATE THE MINDS of the entire Senate and CREATED THE ENEMY OF THE REPUBLIC and DIRECTLY CONTROLLED IT to WAGE WAR with the Republic while he still was the SUPREME CHANCELLOR...of the REPUBLIC. ANSWER this or I will consider this point CONCEDED.

And as a favor to you, I will go back to my original posts and quote them for you so you do not have to when you type your rebuttals to each one of them:

And add to that the fact that Palpatine was controlling the Senate with the Dark Side of the Force and waging war against his own government he was trying to "protect," the legal argument goes straight down the shitter. You aren't going to sit there and tell me that even when he's directly controlling the ENEMY of the Republic, which HE CREATED, into WAGING A GALACTIC WAR on it that he is not somehow violating his powers as SUPREME CHANCELLOR? I nailed you to the fucking wall on that one. No matter what the fuck you tell me, Palpatine was flat out wrong in doing that.

No. Just stop now. Please.

The "typical politician" doesn't have Dark Side Force powers with which to manipulate the entire legislative body into complying with his/her demands, and doesn't directly control the enemy into waging war against his/her own government in order to increase his/her own power in said government. In fact, there was no previous enemy. The politician would have had to CREATE the enemy to complete the analogy.

Whoop-dee-freaking-doo. As stated before, he MANIPULATED THE SENATE WITH DARK SIDE FORCE POWERS. And he betrayed his people by CREATING AND DIRECTLY CONTROLLING THE ENEMY OF THE GOVERNMENT HE HAS SWORN TO PROTECT. It's not as though he simply made someone a scapegoat and attacked them, he actually went out of his way to create an enemy worthy enough of bringing down the Republic and basically told it to knock its brains out destroying the Republic. That's not your typical power-grabbing asshole politician!

Dealt with it before, won't do so again. You will have to prove to me that Palpatine somehow wasn't breaking any laws in bringing down the Republic before expecting me to buy that the GE was a legitimate government.

New governments are often hardly completely legal. That doesn't change the fact Palpatine did follow procedure.

No he DID NOT. He manipulated the minds of the Senate with the Dark Side powers of the Force and created and controlled an enemy to the Republic while he was Supreme Chancellor. That most definitely broke some major laws, hence he broke procedure.

That no-one complained and all that. That nobody is protesting against the new government's legitimacy - in fact, everyone is sending Senators.

Because NO ONE KNEW that Palpatine was a SITH LORD who CONTROLLED THEIR MINDS and THRUSTED them into a GALACTIC WAR to simply increase his own power.

As for the morality of his move ... I never liked Palpy. I love the Empire, but I don't like Palpy. Honestly, if the NR wasn't such a retard, maybe I'd like it more than the Empire. I generally like democracies. But the NR is so retarded it makes the Empire look like a good deal.

I wholly disagree.

No it isn't. It is simply taking advantage of Empire and Leia was pretending to still be a part of the Senate and all that jazz.

You cannot really claim officially to not recognize the government and send Senators to it at the same time. That's having your cake and eating it.

You cannot really be Supreme Chancellor of the Republic while directly commanding the enemy that is waging war against it. That's having your cake and eating it.

That aside, why should someone obey laws of a government which he/she is trying to bring down?! This is absurd logic.

A name that isn't even used in high-level official documents doesn't impress me a hell of a lot. Legitimacy is important in things like the Rebellion. Your choice of words defines your thoughts, and in their minds, they've already conceded the legal legitimacy to the Emperor, thus they constantly write Rebel Alliance and Rebellion.

By the way, did you notice they called Palpatine his Majesty? That's not the language you use for someone you do not recognize the authority of the government. Calling him "Palpy, the illegal Emperor' (touch that up for the formality needed) is the correct attitude.

They also mention:

According to the Corellian Treaty, the position of Chief of State “will be abolished when the Emperor is deposed, killed, or resigns his position of power. " The Advisory Council will immediately assume Executive Power, and a Constitutional Convention will convene to decide the form of government of the Second Galactic Republic

Hardly like a "restoration" to me. It is more like creating a new government, which they think would like a Republic.

Fine. Point conceded. I don't care anymore since I've already proven the Empire wasn't formed legitimately, which you have yet to try to rebuke.

Yes. That's called being objective. You criticize the ground rules. But once they are set, one should remember them and not criticize them again for enforcing them.

Suppose I, as a dictator, put up a rule that says anyone calling me a "fucktard" will be executed. That's a really evil (and quite stupid) rule. Now, two million people call my bluff and yell that I'm a fucktard. Am I to be additionally penalized for actually showing them I'm serious, or am I just enforcing the principles I laid down.

I would say that the law is evil and stupid and the act of killing 2 million people for calling you a fucktard is evil and stupid as well.

Of course it is. In fact, it is her duty as an Imperial Senator not to join the Rebellion.

But she did, so what makes you think she would still respect the Empire's laws?

A government official, above all others, is obligated not to break the law.

Did she really consider herself a government official still? No.

Honestly, the moment they put up the shield, they lost any small chance they had they won't be bombarded.

The chance was zero.

They are already under suspicion, bordering on complete certainty. They hardly had to help the Empire confirm their wonderful disloyalty.

How could they be disloyal if the Empire sends the DS to blow it up and then they try to defend themselves? And who the fuck cares if they are disloyal to an evil brutal totalitarian regime? I sure as hell would be.

As for sending the Fleet? Are you proposing now they should make my analogy even more valid?

I propose that they should have tried to destroy the DS before it destroyed them. Acting in self-defense. You don't think they could tell that the superlaser was all ready to be fired by the massive amounts of power in that thing?

Dependent on dissipation rate of the shield. I won't be holding my breath against a 1E37J shield.

Don't assume convenient technologies will come to solve difficult dilemmas. Wars' not Trek.

You don't understand the precision and the stakes we are playing for here. The shield power is constantly varying. An error of 1 in a million, and the leakage onto planet will explode it. 1 in a trillion, and the planet is completely screwed, 1 in a quadrillion will still bring something like the K-T event.

You're saying that the turbolasers weren't able to bring down the shields without destroying the planet? And what is the K-T event?

Tell me why they should design, or prove that they can, have a million power settings on the DS1 gun. So you aim low, Yet even 1 millionth of the 1E37 may still be higher than all the turbolasers, and once you fire and you miss low, the gun will go through a long cycle before it regains operational status, so it may be impossible to correct your mistake..

What? Why would it take a long cycle to recharge the superlaser if it's a low-powered shot?

Not really a good replacement. This is really the Hiroshima argument - blow up the first operational nuke over a city, or a island and hope they understand. The US chose the City. So did the Empire.

I don't think it's the same situation. The US had to blow up the city because if they didn't no one in Japan would have believed that the US had an atomic bomb. They couldn't film it and send footage of it to the Japanese. They would have thought it was a hoax. And, correct me if I'm wrong, there wasn't an island nearby they could blow up and let the Japanese see for themselves in real time what the atomic bomb was capable of. Even if there was, the government wouldn't allow the media to see what sort of damage it did and would make up some bullshit excuse as to what caused that big bright flash in the distance. If they used it to blow up the IJN, the government would also hide the fact from its people. It goes on and on and on.

The Empire did not have to blow up an inhabited planet to demonstrate its strength. All they had to do was put a planetary shield on an uninhabited planet and obliterate it. You can't hide the disappearance of a planet. And if the Empire leaked out information on the uninhabited planet's planetary shield to Bothans, a reliable source of information, then the rebels would have believed it.

But then again, like I said before, you don't even need to install a planetary shield on Alderaan. The Bothans would have been able to calculate how much more power would go into the planet that would have went into the planetary shields by seeing how much more violent the explosion would be.

To show them, actually, their prestige buys them nothing.

There were tons of other ways they could have done that.

Sometimes famous people act as if daring you to do something to them.

And are you supposed to kill them?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Apparently you did not understand my post. I said that if there was one last city remaining with a single race in it, such as all Native Americans in the world in a city in the US, and the US government decides to bombard the city and kill everyone in it, that is genocide. And that is what the Empire did. Except it missed those who were off-world, and in the analogy it could be that the US missed anyone that was out-of-town. So I suppose it was really near-genocide.

OK, whatever. See my reply to Stofsk.

We, who have not had a fraction of the history the SW galaxy has, are more advanced than them? That is disturbing. You'd figure after all of that time the SW galaxy would be more advanced than us.

Unfortunately, from their position on the droids, we can see morally, this is not the case. (Non-SoDwise, I suppose it is because the authors are 20th century people).

So then because everyone mistreats droids, the Empire is justified in mistreating aliens even though not everyone mistreats aliens or agrees with mistreating aliens? The Empire doesn't even have the popular support of the galaxy.

I'm sure lots of humans rather like High Human Culture. The important thing here is to recognize the root of the Imperial racism, and it is not a disease that started with Palpy. It is a disease that has afflicted the SW galaxy for a long time.

It also definitely did not disappear with the NR. In fact, even in those of the Provisional Council, who proclaim that they are for "species equality", it is often nothing more than a thin superficial sheet, easily broken at the smallest tests (see Solo Command).

Right, so Imperial soldiers are justified in firing at Rebel soldiers, just as the German soldiers were justified in firing at Allied soldiers. But neither of them are justified in committing atrocities.

So, killing traitors is an atrocity? Doubt it. Killing civvies is an atrocity? If that's so, plenty of American and British strategic bombing teams have a lot to answer for.

Legitimacy
Your argument is on two hinges, basically:
1) The Emperor used the Dark Side to Control the Senate: I really doubt he could exert so much Force as to control anyone so close to the Jedi, even though he's erected a screen so his normal energies won't be detected like a beacon. As for influence, any politician is going to use any means in his book to get others to go his way, and if available, that means the Force. Politician is never a Saintly job, and it really is little more heinous than "gifts, advantages and deals that just circumvent those pesky anti-corruption laws"
2) The Emperor got his apprentice Dooku to make this Separatist Alliance: OK, conceded on that one. But nobody found out, so as far as those guys are concerned, the Emperor is legitimate. Besides, if a government has to start out perfectly legally, I don't think the US government, born in the fires of an arrogantly self-imposed Declaration of Independence and the Rebel Alliance's New Republic are that legitimate either.

What's equally important is the recognition of authority. If you think the government is illegitimate, you don't send Senators. Recognition is an important sign of legitimacy. Got that? Very simple.

You cannot really be Supreme Chancellor of the Republic while directly commanding the enemy that is waging war against it. That's having your cake and eating it.

That aside, why should someone obey laws of a government which he/she is trying to bring down?! This is absurd logic.

Doesn't matter. They pledged their loyalty to the Imperial government. And they broke it. Honestly, that doesn't speak well of them no matter what the cause.

I would say that the law is evil and stupid and the act of killing 2 million people for calling you a fucktard is evil and stupid as well.

But it is a natural consequence of the 1st law.

But she did, so what makes you think she would still respect the Empire's laws?

So when a government official uses his position to spy for the Soviet Union because he likes Communism, the US government is not supposed to feel pissed?

Did she really consider herself a government official still? No.

Of course she does. She's taking advantage of it, like a corrupt governor skimming off taxes.

The chance was zero.

I guess the Princess treason mostly sealed that decision. Still hardly has to give them another eason.

How could they be disloyal if the Empire sends the DS to blow it up and then they try to defend themselves? And who the fuck cares if they are disloyal to an evil brutal totalitarian regime? I sure as hell would be.

You got the order wrong. They were disloyal, so the Empire comes to blow them up, and to the very end, they don't see the error.

I propose that they should have tried to destroy the DS before it destroyed them. Acting in self-defense. You don't think they could tell that the superlaser was all ready to be fired by the massive amounts of power in that thing?

Nice way for totally proving the treason to the Empire.

You're saying that the turbolasers weren't able to bring down the shields without destroying the planet? And what is the K-T event?

Considering the puny power of TLs versus the SL, I'm not holding any of my breath. And that event was that huge asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs I think. In any case, you need more precision than one in a trillion with SL.

What? Why would it take a long cycle to recharge the superlaser if it's a low-powered shot?

Because it is not that low powered. Alderaan's shield is 1E37, right? That means a tenth of the time to fire. Which means at least a few hours, counting time to dissipate the heat in the chamber, recharge any capacitator... etc. If you fail, the shield will dissipate the energy and you'd have to start virtually from Step 0.

But then again, like I said before, you don't even need to install a planetary shield on Alderaan. The Bothans would have been able to calculate how much more power would go into the planet that would have went into the planetary shields by seeing how much more violent the explosion would be.

Excuse me while I stop strangling myself from laughter at the prospects of the Bothans (or Rebel Intelligence at large) accurately calculating such a complex calculation when it had been proven those dolts can't measure, or draw an accurate sketch of a starship.

Sadly, not only is the standard state of morality in the GFFA at large (not just Imp era) somewhat inferior to our own, so is their apparently ability to accurately measure evidence.

They can leak information, but it will be suspected of as being disinformation, perhaps even computer generated. Blowing up a "real" planet will convince them. Just like Hiroshima and Alderaan. Remember also that this is meant for the planetary governments too, not all of which have quite that extensive a network. I doubt the Rebel Alliance would be telling them the bad news of this planet-killing thing that would penetrate the tender shields they thought were adequate...

And are you supposed to kill them?

If they conmitted acts worthy of it...

[Rogue 9]

Nice way for totally proving the treason to the Empire.

THE ALTERNATIVE WAS DEATH! I'D SHOOT BACK AS WELL; ANY GOVERNMENT THAT IS GOING TO KILL CITIZENS WITHOUT ANY FORM OF DUE PROCESS IS NOT WORTHY OF LOYALTY!

Furthermore, the Alderaanians didn't shoot back, so his hypothetical proved nothing in the way of treasonous behavior on the part of the planetary population at large.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

OK, whatever. See my reply to Stofsk.

Meh. I'll read it at a later time.

Unfortunately, from their position on the droids, we can see morally, this is not the case. (Non-SoDwise, I suppose it is because the authors are 20th century people).

I know, but it doesn't change the fact that it disturbs me.

I'm sure lots of humans rather like High Human Culture. The important thing here is to recognize the root of the Imperial racism, and it is not a disease that started with Palpy. It is a disease that has afflicted the SW galaxy for a long time.

It also definitely did not disappear with the NR. In fact, even in those of the Provisional Council, who proclaim that they are for "species equality", it is often nothing more than a thin superficial sheet, easily broken at the smallest tests (see Solo Command).

What? This is news to me. I've never seen any instances in the PT or the OT or in any of the books I've read (although admittedly a small amount) that suggest humans in general were FOR the "High Human Culture." You will have to provide lots of quotes.

So, killing traitors is an atrocity? Doubt it.

If in combat, no. If they have not had a fair chance to represent themselves in some sort of trial, yes.

Killing civvies is an atrocity? If that's so, plenty of American and British strategic bombing teams have a lot to answer for.

Those are unintentional killings. The American and British militaries do all they can to avoide civilian casualties. You cannot argue the Empire takes steps to avoid civilian casualties. They did not even attempt to warn Alderaan that they would all die unless they lowered their shields and surrendered. They didn't even try to pound the shields down with the thousands of HTLs on its surface. They didn't take any steps that would spare the lives of innocents.

Legitimacy
Your argument is on two hinges, basically:
1) The Emperor used the Dark Side to Control the Senate: I really doubt he could exert so much Force as to control anyone so close to the Jedi, even though he's erected a screen so his normal energies won't be detected like a beacon.

Dooku said to Obi-Wan that the Senate was under control of a Sith Lord. And it seems to be validated by Thrawn's theory of Palpatine being able to control his entire military force. In fact, the ability is a proven power by Jorrus C'baoth's (sp?) influence over the Imperial soldiers in HttE. And he wasn't even in the same league as Palpatine. So to doubt Palpatine's ability to control the Senators' minds is plain and simple foolishness.

As for influence, any politician is going to use any means in his book to get others to go his way, and if available, that means the Force.

Which is still illegal. For example, bribing corrupt Senators is still illegal even though it might be common among politicians. Certainly controlling their minds is illegal as well. Probably more so, since the Senators aren't even aware of the fact that they are being manipulated. And this is a red herring. Just because "everyone else does it" doesn't make it right.

Politician is never a Saintly job, and it really is little more heinous than "gifts, advantages and deals that just circumvent those pesky anti-corruption laws"

I repeat a previous post a third time, in which you still did not directly answer despite my request that you do so:

No. Just stop now. Please.

The "typical politician" doesn't have Dark Side Force powers with which to manipulate the entire legislative body into complying with his/her demands, and doesn't directly control the enemy into waging war against his/her own government in order to increase his/her own power in said government. In fact, there was no previous enemy. The politician would have had to CREATE the enemy to complete the analogy.

And how does this apply to Palpatine? It doesn't. He never accepted bribes. I am accusing him of controlling the Senators' minds, thus changing their judgement in granting him emergency powers and the whole bit, leading to his ascension in power up to the point where he was able to declare himself Emperor and rule with an iron fist. It would effectively be like some nut politician in America somehow hypnotizing all of the government officials into making Constitutional Amendments that make this nut politician Emperor. Would you still say that it's a legitimate government, even though all of the government officials were under the direct control of a single individual which did not represent the interests of the people as a whole?

2) The Emperor got his apprentice Dooku to make this Separatist Alliance: OK, conceded on that one.

Concession accepted.

But nobody found out, so as far as those guys are concerned, the Emperor is legitimate.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make sound? Yes it does. The Empire was created illegitimately, therefore it is an illegitimate government whether you like it or not. Just because very little knew it at the time does not change the fact. Concession accepted.

You answered the "legal" part of the question, but you failed to answer the "moral" part of the question. You did not say whether or not morally Palpatine was wrong in doing what he did.

Besides, if a government has to start out perfectly legally, I don't think the US government, born in the fires of an arrogantly self-imposed Declaration of Independence and the Rebel Alliance's New Republic are that legitimate either.

Oh, so you still claim the Empire is legitimate only because the people didn't realize what was going on behind the scenes, and yet it's perfectly alright to say the New Republic and the United States of America were illegitimate? Oh, the hypocrisy.

What's equally important is the recognition of authority. If you think the government is illegitimate, you don't send Senators. Recognition is an important sign of legitimacy. Got that? Very simple.

They needed Senators in order to have some scrap of power left to fight the Empire.

Doesn't matter. They pledged their loyalty to the Imperial government. And they broke it. Honestly, that doesn't speak well of them no matter what the cause.

He pledged his loyalty to the Republic government. And he broke it. Honestly, that doesn't speak well of him no matter what the cause.

Love how your own arguments come right back at you? At this point you will have to decide which is more advantageous to your position:

1. Admit that even though one pledges loyalty to a government and doesn't really mean it, that that person is still supposed to respect and obey the laws of said government.

OR

2. Admit that even though one pledges loyalty to a government and doesn't really mean it, that that person isn't supposed to respect and obey the laws of said government.

The choice is yours.

But it is a natural consequence of the 1st law.

Fuck that. Good laws also should be taken into account that way as well. If both are taken into account the way I said before, then it's fair.

So when a government official uses his position to spy for the Soviet Union because he likes Communism, the US government is not supposed to feel pissed?

No, the analogy is wrong. It would be a government official using his position to spy for a resistance group trying to bring down the government for overthrowing their previous form of government without the consent of the people.

Of course she does. She's taking advantage of it, like a corrupt governor skimming off taxes.

Tax evasion? She's using her position for her political goals, not because of greed or petty shit.

I guess the Princess treason mostly sealed that decision. Still hardly has to give them another eason.

The princess was treacherous. Death to all of the people on her home planet, for surely they were responsible for her treachery!

You got the order wrong. They were disloyal, so the Empire comes to blow them up, and to the very end, they don't see the error.

It wasn't meant to be in any specific order. Even if they were disloyal first, although the Empire was illegitimately formed thus being disloyal to the people, they had the right to defend themselves from an imminent attack.

Nice way for totally proving the treason to the Empire.

Raising your shields to try to protect your planet from destruction does not equal treason. Especially since the government they are defending themselves from was created by treasonous acts against the people.

Considering the puny power of TLs versus the SL, I'm not holding any of my breath.

Do you mean that the TLs wouldn't be able to bring down the shields by saying "not holding my breath"? It has been known that ISDs can take down planetary shields over a long period of time. Surely the thousands of HTLs on the surface of the DS could have taken down the shields in a much quicker time period than a fleet of ISDs.

And that event was that huge asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs I think. In any case, you need more precision than one in a trillion with SL.

I still think the Empire should have at least tried it.

Because it is not that low powered. Alderaan's shield is 1E37, right? That means a tenth of the time to fire. Which means at least a few hours, counting time to dissipate the heat in the chamber, recharge any capacitator... etc. If you fail, the shield will dissipate the energy and you'd have to start virtually from Step 0.

If it took the DS a day to recharge from a full-powered blast, then it'd only take 2.4 hours to recharge from a shot the tenth of its full-power blast. And you wouldn't have killed many more innocents in the process. It's worth it from any humanitarian standpoint. It's not as though the Alderaanians are going anywhere with that shield up. And the minute they let down their shields to let ships escape, the planetary shields go down from HTL bombardments and leaves the entire planet vulnerable to precision strikes or a BDZ.

Excuse me while I stop strangling myself from laughter at the prospects of the Bothans (or Rebel Intelligence at large) accurately calculating such a complex calculation when it had been proven those dolts can't measure, or draw an accurate sketch of a starship.

Sadly, not only is the standard state of morality in the GFFA at large (not just Imp era) somewhat inferior to our own, so is their apparently ability to accurately measure evidence.

I don't know what that example refers to, but given the advanced nature of SW tech, I wouldn't be surprised if they would simply let droids or computers do the calculations for them. If Wong could create a simple planetary destruction calculator, I'm sure SW tech could....maybe equal it's precision.

They can leak information, but it will be suspected of as being disinformation, perhaps even computer generated.

No it wouldn't. They were arguably the best and most reliable source of information the Rebels had. Bothans were noted to be among the best spies in the galaxy. Period.

Blowing up a "real" planet will convince them. Just like Hiroshima and Alderaan.

When you have sensors that can detect whether or not a planet is in existence anymore, it becomes MUCH harder to cover up the disappearance of a planet than the destruction an atomic bomb caused on a Japanese-controlled island circa WWII. In order for Japanese citizens to have been able to find out the amount of destruction the bomb caused on an island, they would have had to actually go out to the island and see it for themselves, which would be impossible to do. The Japanese would have it locked up tight. You can't blockade open space from thousands of ships coming to see if a planet is there, unless you use Interdictors. But then the Empire wanted to display their power, right? So they would make available any means of proving the destruction of a planet. And the Rebels also wanted to expose the sheer evil of the Empire for constructing such a weapon of mass destruction.

Remember also that this is meant for the planetary governments too, not all of which have quite that extensive a network. I doubt the Rebel Alliance would be telling them the bad news of this planet-killing thing that would penetrate the tender shields they thought were adequate...

Why not? It would swing them over and give them more of a reason to join the Rebel Alliance to try to destroy it.

If they conmitted acts worthy of it...

And what sort of acts do famous people commit in our society that would be worthy of death?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

THE ALTERNATIVE WAS DEATH! I'D SHOOT BACK AS WELL; ANY GOVERNMENT THAT IS GOING TO KILL CITIZENS WITHOUT ANY FORM OF DUE PROCESS IS NOT WORTHY OF LOYALTY!

They've found evidence the Alderaanians had a munitions dump (and presumably larger than average - you don't see them BDZing Corellia or Chandrila, even though the three signed the Corellian Treaty). They already caught the Princess red-handed in her treason (they got the ELL signals from her ship among other things). What more due process is really required to prove her guilt, or the guilt of Alderaan?

Furthermore, the Alderaanians didn't shoot back, so his hypothetical proved nothing in the way of treasonous behavior on the part of the planetary population at large.

But they showed defiance, forcing the Empire into a spot of either showing weakness or harshness. If you force someone into the position of either killing you or looking weak, don't be so shocked when they decide to shoot you.

Alderaan is a democracy, remember? If it really was so, Bail Organa can't possibly have done what he did without the consent of at least the majority of his people.

In any case, remember how you said a government is a failure if it can't protect its citizens. In which case the Alderaanian government is a failure of the very worst type - nearly 100% dead. And all they had to do to avoid it is well, at least not be so brazen in their betrayal.

[Rogue 9]

THE ALTERNATIVE WAS DEATH! I'D SHOOT BACK AS WELL; ANY GOVERNMENT THAT IS GOING TO KILL CITIZENS WITHOUT ANY FORM OF DUE PROCESS IS NOT WORTHY OF LOYALTY!

They've found evidence the Alderaanians had a munitions dump (and presumably larger than average - you don't see them BDZing Corellia or Chandrila, even though the three signed the Corellian Treaty). They already caught the Princess red-handed in her treason (they got the ELL signals from her ship among other things). What more due process is really required to prove her guilt, or the guilt of Alderaan?

A desperate criminal shoots a cop in front of his partner. The partner saw him do it, knows he did it, and knows that cop killing is a capital crime. There is no doubt. So, the partner takes the prisoner and shoots him right then and there. No reason for him to get in trouble; it was a foregone conclusion anyway, right?

Engage your brain for just a second here. It would make things so much easier. You harp on and on about Order, yet the Empire flaunted the Rule of Law as badly as any totalitarian regime in history and worse than most.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Emperor had one major known atrocity, two adding Caamas, so
that's a few billion there. The rest is pocket change in comparison.

Plus however many are slaughtered in the Clone Wars (and events leading up to it, as well as occuring after it. From some of the DK sources there is implication there were quite a few Caamas-like "incidents"), in any and every BDZ operation performed by the Empire, that water-world where Palpy had its oceans removed via transport in the Bounty Hunter trilogy, the events in the Dark Empire story arc (particularily Operation Shadow Hand) and Post-Endor (much of the chaos and destruction can be attributed to Palpatine), etc. And that's just what occurs OTOH. I daresay that can add up to quite a bit more than a few billion.

[Connor MacLeod]

I just decided to give prioritization on this, because I knew you would reply before I can get the other posts up and because I'm still thinking up the rebuttal I want for the rest.

So why are you persisting in defending what is DEMONSTRABLY an unteneble position? I can sum it up very simply:

1.) If we believe what you say and Threepio's "God" status did in fact have an influence on them, then logically they must obey him, which in TURN means that they must decide things for themselves, and not by what he says. If they disobey that order, then they aren't listening to their god, are they?

2.) If they aren't influenced by his "god" status as you ASSUME, then you lose the onyl real excuse you have for justifying y our claim of "manipulation" on the Rebel's part.

Gee, it looks either way that you lose out, doesn't it? And that's disregarding the fact that what you've "presented" amounts to idle speculation. (Gee, as I recall you were demanding evidence of me for things like the existence of a "planetary shield network." - seems a bit hypocritical for me to accept your assumptions as fact when you demand full burden of proof for me.)

You have good points there (how to save the commando team from the onslaught is a great challenge) that I actually have to mull over, unlike this.

In other words, you're incapable of actually admitting error and you have to find some way to dodge out of conceding the argument.

You might also want to remember I am now in the rather unfavorable position of debating a few other people as well, so don't expect fast answers on the harder and more technical questions.

Its not my fucking fault you feel that being a rational and somewhat objective analys comes second in your mind. I have very little patience for this sort of bullshit.

1) He was reluctant, but willing to "demonstrate" his "divine power" on Luke's order (P.110), thus he is impersonating a deity there.

Which the Ewoks promptly ignored. And AFTER the fact, we're still neglecting the fact that he expressly TOLD them (you know, the quote where you blatantly ignored the substance and latched onto mere names as justification.)

I acknowledged that. What part of my point do you not understand, that just because he said they could choose has nothing to do with his Ewok-granted divine status and its vital effect on his credibility?

Gee. And if we follow your logic, that means they must do what he tells them.... and decide for themselves. Way to go shooting yourself in the ass there.

You seem to be under the delusion that his statement that they are free to choose means all of the sudden he ain't a God in their eyes. This is clearly untrue.

The POINT (aside from the fact you're grasping at straws and blustering your ass off instead of presenting evidence which actually proves your point) is that his supposed (and unproven) "God influence" you claim does nto make any matter, since Threepio FUCKING TELLS THEM TO DO WHAT THEY WANT. If they obey, then they they make their own fucking decision. If they ignore his "influence", they... make their own fucking decision.

And as a FURTHER point (as If I needed further evidence at this point), you yourself on page three admitted Han pleaded with the Ewoks for help. If they can manipulate someone with unfair influence (IE Threepio's "God" status), they hardly need to plead or persuade for help now, do they?

Of course, this will all just zip by you at hypersonic speed. No reason for actual logic to penetrate by now, is there? Its evident that no matter what evidence is presented you're just going to hand-wave it away and blame the Evil Rebel Horde.

[Connor MacLeod]

For the thermal and EM effects, it should be possible to combine the fleet's shields and send a "stalk" down towards Endor to shelter them from it. If the protected volume is small enough, the energy absorption should be dissipatable with ships that have shield dissipations in the E24-E25W range in a small area (say a 10km wide sphere).

And is this an assumption on your part, or do you have proof that they can do this? And how many ships are contributing? As vakundok mentions, the fleet was spread out acrosss the moon when the DS2 exploded - thats extremely lousy coverage to protect the planet from.

Validation
Given a 1E30J (your estimate, and it seems in the correct magnitude) total KE "wave" (the set of large and small chunks) impacting on a area about 14% of the total surface area of the 5200km radius Endor (Saxton's figures), spread out in time over perhaps 5 seconds (to account for the 450km radius of the sphere vs the 80km/s average debris velocity) will produce a average intensity over the primary affected area would be:

Its rather conservative, since we a.) aren't sure of the speed of the debris (something Alderaan-like would be much faster and require much more energy.) b.) aware of how much fuel the DS2 carried. Its unlikely that it only carried "just enough" fuel to blow up the planet and would run totally empty. Just accelerating/manuvering itself by a single gravity via ion engines (to say nothing of powering its other weapons and other systems.) would require substantial amounts of energy. And the 2nd Death Star was more than "twice" as powerful (suggesting its sustained power output is at least twice that of the 1st Death Stars.) Increasing the enerrgy release generally creates more problems for your theory than it neccesarily does for a planetary shield and/or repulsor.

Endor surface area = 4pi(5.2E6^2) = 3.39E14m^2
Direct Impact Area = 0.14 * Endor surface area = 4.76E13m^2
Energy/Area = 1E30 / 4.76E13 = 2.1E16J/m^2
Avg Power/Area = 2.1E16J/m^2 / 5 seconds = 4.2E15W/m^2
Max Shield Spherical Surface Area = 1E25/4.2E15 = 2.38E9m^2
2.38E9m^2 = 4pi(r^2), so r = 13764m (spherical)

This calculation is an underestimate of the protectable area, as it does not take into account vertical propagation of the energy, which would reduce the average energy intensity. Still, the basic idea should be sound enough.

I would say that the "conservative" aspects I already incorporated into my estimates would more than outweigh any underestimate in your calculations.

Blast energy should be somewhere in the 1E30J total energy input, but there might be momentum effects to consider. On the other hand, there is a lot of flex room in the long stalk, so stresses on the shield projectors should be reduced to a survivable level.

What about the weakening of shield strength over distance? You're assuming that they're projecting this stalk for tens if not hundreds of kilometers (more, if you assume that ships on the edges of the fleet surrounding the moon also contribute.)

After that, if the groundshake cannot be blocked with the shields (treat it as a bunch of constant impacts), use a ship's tractor (apparently powerful enough in general to force compliance in a similar sized enemy vessel capable of multi-thousand G movement) to literally lift the required area off the ground, avoiding the groundshake.

There are a number of problems I can see with this:

The first problem with this is "timing" - you'd have to be fairly precise and react quickly to minimize or neutralize the groundquakes. You couldn't just keep them "on" all the time (they'll exert force on the ground otherwise.) Not impossible, but the sorrt of precision required does make it hard to believe (even if the impacts occur hundreds of km away, the quakes would be strong enough to be noticible/damaging to Ewok buildings. At 300 km, a 400 GT impact would move heavy furniture and break chimneys. Well-constructed modern buidlings would take slight to moderate damage, and poorly constructed ones would take conisderable damage - and where do you think Ewok construction would fall compared to modern buildings? ) given that we see no obvious indication of damage.

The second problem is that diverting tractor beams to "neutralize" the quakes deprives and reduces the Rebel Fleet's overall ability to protect against and divert the impacts. You can do one or the other, but probably not both.

Third: how are they going to counter the momentum of groundquakes, (to say nothing of the impacts themselves)? Ion engines within a few hundred km of the planet would be a bad idea (we're talking about a near-c stream of ions with a combined energy output that can easily match peak reactor outputs.)

The last, somewhat minor problem with this is how are they going to do this through the shield, exactly? Tractor beams are blocked by shields. (REf: The Crystal Star.)

Concept Validation Calcs
Let's start by assigning a MC80 to the task.
1) The MC80 is 1200m long, 480m wide and 140m high (Saxtonian L/W estimates).
2) Assuming a simple cube (it is less than a cube, but let's use a easy calc) produces a volume of 80.64 million cubic meters.
3) To be conservative, we'd assume the overall density of this volume to be 8000kg/m^3 (steel, which is conservative considering the ultra-dense fuel they carry) = 6.45E11kg.
4) The engines of the Mon Cal would be able to drive 6.45E11kg at 3500Gs, which implies it can drive 2.26E15kg at 1G.
5) The tractor beam should be able to force compliance onto the same mass.
6) Soil and rock density is perhaps 3000kg/m^3, so 2.26E15kg = 7.5264E11m^3.
7) Assume we are lifting a 100m deep cylinder (so we can include some roots), and cylinder volume = pi(r^2)h and r = 48946m.
In other words, one ship can lift a near 50km radius of dirt. These are crude, preliminary estimates, but they should be in the ballpark.

As I said, its not so much a matter of force but of precision, compromise, and penetrating the shield. And this is keepomg in mind that the ships involved would ALSO be under threat of bombardment as well from that same debris, so they not only have to protect the ground crew and Imperial prisoners (yes, there are prisoners as mentioned in the novelization) but their own ships as well.

I don't know. We were tossing posts around at a very high rate. But back on P.2, you seem to think a planetary shield is a valid countermeasure if only I'd "grant' you a planetary shield.

Yes, which is funny considering you're asking me to grant you some hefty assumptions for your theory. Especially when I already demonstrtated that a "network" was mentioned (ITW book for the OT)

When E30J class energy goes into that shield, it'd either absorb and retransmit on the shield surface (and thus the shield glows like the sun),

Which we should also be seeing with YOUR theory as well, I might add, if we believe your assumptions. On the other hand, the shield energy might be absorbed instead (at least on part of the surface.) I don't really see where you're supposedly going with this.

or it goes into the core. Presumably, there would be a great groundshake from that. Then there's that momentum.

Spread out over at least several seconds, and that assumes that all shields operate similarily to the Hoth shield (which is silly, since we know SW technology has other means of disposing of waste heat such as converting it into neutrinos as per the AOTC ICS, IIRC. And its not inconceivable that they do use other storage methods, since we know that Alderaan's planetary shield was able to hold off the superlaser for an appreciable fraction of a second before the entire planet exploded, rather than exploding instantly upon contact.) As for the "momentum" transfer, that depends on how they transfer the momentum from the generators to the planet - its not beyond their technological grasp to distribute the momentum over a wider area (something you proposed in your theory in fact, I believe.) Shield size and distance also plays a factor, as it can allow the time of impact to be "spread" out further - the farther it is from the generator/shield surface, the more time it has to act on the impactor (something I believe Mike has touched on on his SW shielding essays)

I might also further add that if the energy just got dumped directly into the core from the shield, then why wasn't the Executor able to bring down the hoth shield? It could easily generate at least 1e30 joules with half an hour of operating time.)

The constant "footprint" pressure of the Death Star II only compensates for (2/3rds of gravity), and they would presumably spread the footprint out wide to reduce the ground pressure. The fragments (around a sixth of the total mass) will suddenly impact the shields with 80km/s, ten times more, which more compensates for this. Besides, the sudden change in strain would still cause unavoidable effects

Excecpt that:

A.) the fraction of the mass that hits the Death Star is going to hit all at once, rather than over the oh, 5 seconds you assumed above. That's going to reduce the overall amount of momentum required to be handled.

b.) The form of the "impacts" - I doubt the vaporized portions of the station or even the molten ones will interact exactly in the same way that a more solid impactor will. Going by visuals, the majority of the station was vaporized.

Anyhow, we have pretty good low-end canon estimates of the momentum-handlign capabilities of a single shield from TESB, which was powerful enough to shrug off the bombardment of even an Executor and its accompanying Star Destroyers, including the momentum of firepower which rates at least in the e27 watt range.) The Alderaan example from ANH also serves as an upper limit example. Even the low-end Hoth example should suggest that the momentum issue, while it has the potential for inflicting heavy damage on the planet even with a shield, is not likely to be mortal in and of itself, shield or no.) I won't even get into what the Alderaan example would imply.

Agreed, so now let's think of something to meet with the G-canon. Hopefully, we don't need to use a new planetary shield, since the ROTJ novelization is quite clear that it doesn't exist, and the ROTJ Novelization is still higher, and inventing a phantom network of shield generators,

Except that this so called "phantom network" is mentioned in the ITW:SWT book. Which makes it a bit less "phantom" than you want to believe (and is just as canonical, if not more recent, although I don't consider the age of the material to have any relevance on its validity.)

And if you're going to compare "inventions", we're comparing one phantom "network" to your invented capabilities for capital ship shields (IE the ability to combine and project a "stalk" down to protect an area of the planet from hundreds of km away.) and tractor beams (sufficient precision to almost totally nullify the effects of any and all groundquakes, and presumably doing so through the aforementioned shields.) And this doesnt even include the inventions required to make this fit with what we see onscreen (why we didn't see any indication that the atmosphere beyond the "shield boundary" was superheated, apparent lack of ejecta obscuring the atmosphere, no damage to the area from groundquakes or such, explaining why the Rebels even bothered PROTECTING the area in the first place if the planet was doomed. Its stupid to assume they're going to put an unneccessary strain on the generators to simply throw a celebration party, much less one that requires them to maintain this activity for hours on end, why everyone would be so cheerful when they're surrounded by an essentially dead and dying world, etc.)

of which only one could be set to cover the Death Star (considering the Death Star is the whole point of the shield network, having only one of a bunch of generators able to cover it would be moronic), is not my idea of harmonization.

And its supposed to be less moronic to assume the Rebels waste hours and strain their ships to protect a selected area of the planet merely to hold a fucking partty? Is it THAT fucking difficult for them to have launched a shuttle to recover their people?

At best, your "harmonization" effort is at best a far more complicated explanation than is neccessary. Either the repulsor idea or the planetary shield idea work better, and require fewer assumptions (the assumption of a network on the planet for the shield, and that the repuslor was not destroyed in the explosion that destroyed the complex.) and will "harmonize" the existing evidence better. And I can accept either or both, since I argue this simply out of interest in flexibility. I prefer to keep my options open though when evidence permits (which it demonstrably does.)

[Captain Cyran]

1) There's no evidence to show they were the majority.

Considering the small amount of the planet we see, and the density of the people there. It's a safe bet that it's the majority of people on the planet. Unless of course you're going to assume the party was only happening on that section of the planet. Complete with fireworks if I remember correctly. Yeah, must be the minority of people.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. We'll say that only 50% of the people were there celebrating. You do realize it's a bad sign when 50% of the popultion goes out and celebrates at the death of their leader.

2) The guys celebrating at Coruscant merely thought it'd be better. And honestly, since the Empire is harsh and no one thinks of it as a utopia, the NR only has a low fence to beat. Honeslty, I still can't understand why they can't leap over cleanly.

Because politics are a bitch, but besides that their lives were worse for awhile when the men Palpatine put in charge decided to carve out little plots of galaxy for themselves. Then once the Republic tok over. *gasp* Things were only bad for the citizens when the Imperials decided to cause trouble against a now legitimate government. And of course there were many Imperial spies in the new senate. Not that THEY should be forced to give up their post to be in what is now the rebellion.

I refer to the fucking Imperial Apologist team. Almost no one likes the Emperor.

And anyone with half a brain realizes that an empire created and directly controlled by an evil bastard is going to evil once they pass on. So by admitting the Emperor is evil, you have to admit that his creation must be evil.

Proof? Honestly, if I have loyal citizens and I want to use them as batteries, I won't be killing them.

Promoting men for atrocities. The numerous planets we here of that are ruined by the Emperor's little pet empire.

How about maximum power loads? The power spec in fact implies that there is no way to use this power to really hurt someone. We know that there is a limit to how much Force energy you can use in a human body (see Anakin and Dorsk whatever killing themselves in an aura of glow of excess Force energy).

I will conceed that the battery won't directly harm civilians in any serious manner. But I highly doubt, considering the emperor's record. That he'd give a damn if it did.

Nobody had as yet been able to come up with a convincing alternative. I've seen, as I recall:
1) Somehow Precision fire the SL to tolerances of less than one in a trillion (and against a maneuvering target - the shield's power at a particular point is constantly shifting slightly)
2) Blockades against a population low enough to be independent
3) Negotiations against terrorists for demands that would bring the downfall of the government (and which government could take that?)
4) Send the ISB, and hope there are only a few thousand traitors on the ground...
5) Send Darth Vader, except how he's supposed to get onto the planet when the Alderaanians are putting the shield up on Imp warships.

How about sending an ultimatum to turn over the traitors or they will destroy the planet. Tarkin never did that. A good government is supposed to get around problems without resorting to "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out." An alternative doesn't matter anyway. Alderaan's death was certain the moment Leia wouldn't talk under torture.

As for Honoghr, one would think if they really intentionally crashed the ship someone would have found out and put it in a source by now (and why? Until they touched down, the planet was nothing but a bunch of primitives. The soil is mediocre, and with few special resources.)

You get the 'Stupid argument of the day' award. Congratulations.

Umm, pal, no one ever said the Empire was a particular charitable organization. While it'd be nice if they just did it, it is hardly an atrocity to demand something in return.

Are you stupid? The Empire didn't go "Well, we'll fix your planet but you have to help us ok?" They went in there, were sneaky little fucks that tricked the Noghri into permanent servitude, leaving them practically nothing except to be soldiers for them. In a way, they were slowly killing off the Noghri. Weren't you the one saying the Empire blew up the planet quickly so it would be a quick death? Odd that they'd do this then...

As a servant of the Empire, Isard could hardly have done nothing to stop the guys from taking Coruscant and organizing into a government.

Once again, you advocate the Empire making life a living hell for civilians as legitimate. Damn I hope you never become a general. You're view on civilian target and military target is a tad bit skewed.

I'm sure the word would pass through. The strata between the pretty upper and scum lower layers is not a hard line. For instance, a guy at the top may access the top ten levels, a guy five floors down may access the five above and five below. And so on.

Oh, you're SURE about that. Damn, there goes my whole argument. Damn, I can't outsmart you.

Honestly, for pragmatic reasons alone (the Empire is pragmatic, to the point that many like you say it is cruel, and in fact even Imperial apologists think of it as harsh), if they were ever planning to get it out in any kind of hurry, they wouldn't have buried it.

More Empire-wank bullshit that you have no proof for.

The Rebellion, in killing the Emperor's body (his soul floated), incited that Civil War.

Waaa! It's all that Rebellion's fault! Waaa! Seriously, I think that's all you've said this entire thread. The Warlord problem wouldn't have happened if PALPATINE didn't promote the kind of people that would become destructive warlords in his wake.

There's also a small difference between the NR and the Empire (of the Rebel Alliance era). Most worlds, including such treacherous ones as Alderaan, seem to accept Imperial authority, and even send Senators. The NR, however, is not either not recognized by the Empire, or at best is treated as an enemy state. They most certainly don't send Senators.

And they got their spy information from... the trees? (Ok, I know that actually happened once, but I'm trying to make a point). Seriously, where do you think spies get their information. The barber?

And the Rebels could have done something. Just that they shouldn't be so surprised and scream atrocity when the government comes after them with a vengeance.

Too bad in 90% of cases the Imperial's coming after the rebellion with a vengeance involved them slaughtering civilians.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

What? This is news to me. I've never seen any instances in the PT or the OT or in any of the books I've read (although admittedly a small amount) that suggest humans in general were FOR the "High Human Culture." You will have to provide lots of quotes.

We never got huge demographic studies of the Empire. However, it was commented in Iron Fist that Coruscant-resistance groups tend to retain the planet's usual assumption of the superiority of humans (it is in those sections with Castin, which I can't reach because I'm in school, so you can either take my word for a few hours or look at the book yourself).

If in combat, no. If they have not had a fair chance to represent themselves in some sort of trial, yes.

Let's be honest. By most Established Government standards, is there any chance that if we put Leia and her government in a fair trial, they would succeed? Let's see, Leia spied on the government. Bail Organa funneled funds to the Rebellion from the very start ... really.

Those are unintentional killings. The American and British militaries do all they can to avoide civilian casualties.

I never knew the Tokyo firebomb raids were intended to "avoid civilian casualties", or the one on Dresden.

You cannot argue the Empire takes steps to avoid civilian casualties. They did not even attempt to warn Alderaan that they would all die unless they lowered their shields and surrendered.

Cute. Real cute. Do you really think the Aldies always had that energy-consuming shield up? They probably raised the damn thing as the Death Star waltzed in. Sorry, but I won't be very inclined to repeat obvious things about showing a defiance. The rest is just your unworkable idea, again, so I'd just deal with it with its other occurrence on the bottom.

Dooku said to Obi-Wan that the Senate was under control of a Sith Lord. And it seems to be validated by Thrawn's theory of Palpatine being able to control his entire military force. In fact, the ability is a proven power by Jorrus C'baoth's (sp?) influence over the Imperial soldiers in HttE.

He'd never been able to directly control more than about a single Destroyer.

And he wasn't even in the same league as Palpatine. So to doubt Palpatine's ability to control the Senators' minds is plain and simple foolishness.

The problem is not controlling them. There were only a thousand of so Senators at the time. The problem is doing it in such a way that won't alert the Jedi, only a few km away. Just because you can sneak past the sub hunters at steerageway doesn't mean you won't be detected when you start driving your screw harder through the water.

Actually, if the Emperor was controlling rather than influencing people, there won't be Mon Mothmas and Bail Organas left.

Which is still illegal. For example, bribing corrupt Senators is still illegal even though it might be common among politicians. Certainly controlling their minds is illegal as well. Probably more so, since the Senators aren't even aware of the fact that they are being manipulated. And this is a red herring. Just because "everyone else does it" doesn't make it right.

But "everyone else does it" does make it less of something worth kicking up a Rebellion over.

And how does this apply to Palpatine? It doesn't. He never accepted bribes. I am accusing him of controlling the Senators' minds, thus changing their judgement in granting him emergency powers and the whole bit, leading to his ascension in power up to the point where he was able to declare himself Emperor and rule with an iron fist. It would effectively be like some nut politician in America somehow hypnotizing all of the government officials into making Constitutional Amendments that make this nut politician Emperor. Would you still say that it's a legitimate government, even though all of the government officials were under the direct control of a single individual which did not represent the interests of the people as a whole?

I'm sorry, but technically, it'd still be. And he's not hypnotizing, he's influencing, which happens all the time. No point getting too excited about it.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make sound? Yes it does. The Empire was created illegitimately, therefore it is an illegitimate government whether you like it or not. Just because very little knew it at the time does not change the fact. Concession accepted.

Let me put it another way. In fact, I'm a mass murderer. But you don't know that. You kill me merely because I fired you from your job. Tell me, would it be justified for you to say that it was OK to kill me because I'm a mass murderer. No it doesn't, because you don't know that. You might have done society a service, but that's by accident, and I as a judge would not factor it in into your sentence.

[quot]Oh, so you still claim the Empire is legitimate only because the people didn't realize what was going on behind the scenes, and yet it's perfectly alright to say the New Republic and the United States of America were illegitimate? Oh, the hypocrisy.[/quote]

Doesn't matter. You acknowledged it, you pay the price. Millions of people suckered into disadvantageous contracts anyway.

They needed Senators in order to have some scrap of power left to fight the Empire.

And in the process, they gave the Empire legitimacy. Next.

He pledged his loyalty to the Republic government. And he broke it. Honestly, that doesn't speak well of him no matter what the cause.

Too bad. Nobody seriously speaks well of Palpatine.

Fuck that. Good laws also should be taken into account that way as well. If both are taken into account the way I said before, then it's fair.

Define a good law.

No, the analogy is wrong. It would be a government official using his position to spy for a resistance group trying to bring down the government for overthrowing their previous form of government without the consent of the people.

I don't exactly see the vast majority of people going against the Empire. Which means de facto consent.

Tax evasion? She's using her position for her political goals, not because of greed or petty shit.

doesn't matter. If I skim taxes to use for my "political goal", that doesn't mean I didn't skim taxes.

The princess was treacherous. Death to all of the people on her home planet, for surely they were responsible for her treachery!

There was, of course, other evidence of their complicity. Like the munitions site. Like the fact she had the agreement of the government in using their ship and their Marines.

It wasn't meant to be in any specific order. Even if they were disloyal first, although the Empire was illegitimately formed thus being disloyal to the people, they had the right to defend themselves from an imminent attack.

They had the right to try, and thus prove to the Empire they are disloyal, and get shot.

Raising your shields to try to protect your planet from destruction does not equal treason. Especially since the government they are defending themselves from was created by treasonous acts against the people.

See above. They didn't know any of that "treasonous" part. Therefore, you cannot factor it into their calculation.

Do you mean that the TLs wouldn't be able to bring down the shields by saying "not holding my breath"? It has been known that ISDs can take down planetary shields over a long period of time. Surely the thousands of HTLs on the surface of the DS could have taken down the shields in a much quicker time period than a fleet of ISDs.

I don't know the grade of those shields. But I can't see 1E37J shields going down in any reasonable timeframe to 1E24W Star Destroyers kind afirepower.

I still think the Empire should have at least tried it.

Honestly, when (it is so likely it is not close to an "if") they fail, by a trillionth, and kill all life on the planet (and you see that on the ANH movie sequence), are you going to acknowledge their efforts? Is anyone? Or are you just going to whine like you do now?

If it took the DS a day to recharge from a full-powered blast, then it'd only take 2.4 hours to recharge from a shot the tenth of its full-power blast. And you wouldn't have killed many more innocents in the process. It's worth it from any humanitarian standpoint. It's not as though the Alderaanians are going anywhere with that shield up. And the minute they let down their shields to let ships escape, the planetary shields go down from HTL bombardments and leaves the entire planet vulnerable to precision strikes or a BDZ.

Just like I said, a few hours, which means the energy would have dissipated. What's worse is that if you got it wrong the first time, the next time will involve even more complex calculations. The shield will mostly recover, but if the recovery is in any way imperfect, that un-evaluable damage will have to go into your calculation. If you can't get the answer right on the first try, you won't have much prayer in solving the more complex second try successfully.

I don't know what that example refers to, but given the advanced nature of SW tech, I wouldn't be surprised if they would simply let droids or computers do the calculations for them. If Wong could create a simple planetary destruction calculator, I'm sure SW tech could....maybe equal it's precision.

Unfortunately, it is obvious that all the droids and all the computers in the SW galaxy seems unable to get an accurate length for the Executor. When they can't do that, forgive my pessimism of their chances of calculating the calculus involved in planetary destruction.

No it wouldn't. They were arguably the best and most reliable source of information the Rebels had. Bothans were noted to be among the best spies in the galaxy. Period.

And the Bothans would simply be given a tape? Really. They are pretty good, but I won't be doing such things. If they give them so much intellignece that they know the model of shield generator, its deployment, that they can evaluate the true power accurately ... they'd be suspicious. Even the Bothans can't get that much info.

When you have sensors that can detect whether or not a planet is in existence anymore, it becomes MUCH harder to cover up the disappearance of a planet than the destruction an atomic bomb caused on a Japanese-controlled island circa WWII.

Kamino could disappear from the records. Unknown planet XYZ is going to disappear even faster.

But then the Empire wanted to display their power, right? So they would make available any means of proving the destruction of a planet. And the Rebels also wanted to expose the sheer evil of the Empire for constructing such a weapon of mass destruction.

After the destruction, it'd be hard to obtain primary evidence of the shield generator's capacity.

Why not? It would swing them over and give them more of a reason to join the Rebel Alliance to try to destroy it.

Or it'd make those guys huddle up and be Good and Obedient. Too great a risk. One of the government's ultimate duty is to its People, and in endangering all of them this way, the government has failed.

And what sort of acts do famous people commit in our society that would be worthy of death?

One word: Treason.

[Kurgan]

I was just trying to discerne if the numbers were being maximized in the case of the Empire, and minimized in the case of Alderaan. Taking the Official estimates and saying they're all wrong is fine (we do it all the time here), but basically the argument was that the Death Star must have a huge population, and Alderaan must have a small population, thus proportionally the Rebels are bigger murderers.

However, my retort to that was that EVEN IF TRUE (which I doubt), that still assumes that the Empire won't blow up OTHER planets with more people on them. And the Death Star is a legitimate military target, in addition.

Were all 2 billion (or more) people on Alderaan traitors? Do all traitors deserve death? That wasn't the Empire's reason for destroying the planet, but it is a clever rationalization after the fact, using insane Imperial ideology.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Because politics are a bitch, but besides that their lives were worse for awhile when the men Palpatine put in charge decided to carve out little plots of galaxy for themselves. Then once the Republic tok over. *gasp* Things were only bad for the citizens when the Imperials decided to cause trouble against a now legitimate government. And of course there were many Imperial spies in the new senate. Not that THEY should be forced to give up their post to be in what is now the rebellion.

See Vong invasion. They were at peace for years. See that wonderful score?

Really, few of the tests had been very challenging. The crisis in Solo Command is caused more by the true nature of the Provisional Council under a millimetric thick skin of "equality". the Yevetha? Dirt. The Vong, bigger clumped of dirt. Really, any half assed government coulda done it, and convinced us Imperial apologists the Empire's death was a net positive (even though the substituion of beautiful wedges with those ... monsters in CTD could be considered an atrocity in itself ).

And anyone with half a brain realizes that an empire created and directly controlled by an evil bastard is going to evil once they pass on. So by admitting the Emperor is evil, you have to admit that his creation must be evil.

But how evil? Evil enough to replace it with Incompetence?

Promoting men for atrocities. The numerous planets we here of that are ruined by the Emperor's little pet empire.

All a matter of achieving his personal goal. As for Tarkin, he got his taxes. In results, he did it, and with a low casualty count.

How about sending an ultimatum to turn over the traitors or they will destroy the planet. Tarkin never did that. A good government is supposed to get around problems without resorting to "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out." An alternative doesn't matter anyway. Alderaan's death was certain the moment Leia wouldn't talk under torture.

You mean, Alderaan's death was certain the moment Princess Leia chose to be a traitor and show the Empire what bad apples the Aldies are (which they already suspect). The ultimatum seems kind of cut short when the Aldies raised the shield, which means 'NO!"

You get the 'Stupid argument of the day' award. Congratulations.

How is pointing out there would have seemed little advantage in deliberatley crashing a ship onto Honoghr.

Are you stupid? The Empire didn't go "Well, we'll fix your planet but you have to help us ok?" They went in there, were sneaky little fucks that tricked the Noghri into permanent servitude, leaving them practically nothing except to be soldiers for them. In a way, they were slowly killing off the Noghri. Weren't you the one saying the Empire blew up the planet quickly so it would be a quick death? Odd that they'd do this then...

It wasn't an honest deal. But it wasn't an atrocity. They are cleaning up the planet after all...

Once again, you advocate the Empire making life a living hell for civilians as legitimate. Damn I hope you never become a general. You're view on civilian target and military target is a tad bit skewed.

It could be more skewed. I know I don't have the stomach to actually make Tarkin's tough choices.

Oh, you're SURE about that. Damn, there goes my whole argument. Damn, I can't outsmart you.

Almost certain, and how is pointing out it is not pragmatic to bury something you really expect to raise anchor fast a fan-wank argument?

Waaa! It's all that Rebellion's fault! Waaa! Seriously, I think that's all you've said this entire thread. The Warlord problem wouldn't have happened if PALPATINE didn't promote the kind of people that would become destructive warlords in his wake.

I agree that was his part of the blame. I just think that in killing the Emperor, they caused that cork to blow.

And they got their spy information from... the trees? (Ok, I know that actually happened once, but I'm trying to make a point). Seriously, where do you think spies get their information. The barber?

The aides, comm intercepts ... etc.

Too bad in 90% of cases the Imperial's coming after the rebellion with a vengeance involved them slaughtering civilians.

All in the Name of Order, says the Empire.

[Lord of the Farce]

And I really love how you cut out the rest of my argument, never quote the later posts using the same argument you cut out, and completely ignore the point I made. I want you to PROVE to me how Palpatine was somehow morally justified and DID NOT somehow break the law when he used his DARK SIDE FORCE POWERS to MANIPULATE THE MINDS of the entire Senate and CREATED THE ENEMY OF THE REPUBLIC and DIRECTLY CONTROLLED IT to WAGE WAR with the Republic while he still was the SUPREME CHANCELLOR...of the REPUBLIC. ANSWER this or I will consider this point CONCEDED.

Please read the following two quotes:

There was Rebellion long before there was a Rebel Alliance. Almost immediately after Senator Palpatine became President Palpatine and began his long campaign of oppression, Resistance units sprang up in every corner of the galaxy.

As guerrilla operations in isolated systems, these units were moderately successful in presenting a rather painful thorn in the side of many an Imperial governor or Moff. But with limited resources and a lack of overall direction, they could not do much more.

As long as they remained isolated and uncoordinated, the Resistance fighters presented little threat to the Emperor. Though perhaps too strong for individual planetary militia to handle, they were completely unable to withstand the Imperial Army and Navy — whenever a group became too noxious, the Empire could concentrate large forces against them in a remarkably short period of time, usually before they even knew they were threatened. The Emperor had the resources of a galaxy at his beck and call; the Resistance fighters had nothing except what they could steal.

Despite their differences, Mothma and Organa worked closely together to keep Senator Palpatine from becoming President of the Republic. When it became obvious that they would fail, Mothma began to discuss Revolution. Organa was horrified.
-snip
Mon Mothma continues, "After Ghorman, Bail realized that the Republic was dead. He began to use all of his Influence and political skill to aid us, while still pretending to be against me on the door of the Senate. He was on many influential committees — Finance, Appropriations, Intelligence Oversight — and he was able to funnel money, weapons, and, most importantly, Information to us without anyone suspecting him."
-snip
On the run, with no more reason to maintain even the pretense of loyalty to the Republic — now the Empire — Mothma began to work in earnest organizing the Alliance. Using the framework hammered out with Organa during visits to Cantham House, his home in Imperial City, she was able to smoothly integrate the many diverse organizations and groups springing up in opposition to the Emperor into what is now known as “the Alliance.”

Read the emphasis, then draw your own conclusions.
NB: Although no timeline is given, it can be most of this can be interpreted to have occured before the end of the Clone Wars.

[Kurgan]

The Empire didn't create Order, they created chaos. Getting rid of democracy (even corrupt democracy...), to replace it with a corrupt dictatorship, and installing rule by fear, which necessitates the random killing of civilians and brainwashing with propaganda.

The Empire's philosophy is hypocritical. Had they just been like Big Brother and said "we just want to control everything... power for the sake of power" they'd be being honest. Palpatine himself didn't even believe that bullshit about law & order. He just wanted to suck up power and get revenge.

Nothing changes under the Empire, except rule by fear through a military elite, and a mad Sith Lord. There's still plenty of corruption going on and there's still plenty of crime (example: Tatooine).

That in the EU the Vong invade several decades after the Civil War ended, that doesn't excuse what the Empire did. Besides, its not as if the Rebellion knew about the Vong invasion, and somehow knew that allowing the Empire to stay in power and slaughter its citizens would prevent the Vong from attacking. Would the Vong have attacked the Republic?

If Palpatine had really cared, he would have upped the military of the Republic, but not turned it into a murderous police state. That was his mistake. By turning the people against him, he ensured the collapse of the Galactic government. So from a certain point of view, the lack of preparedness was due to Palpatine's folly.

[Lord of the Farce]

Were all 2 billion (or more) people on Alderaan traitors?

Again (emhasis my):

With a single blast, Alderaan was reduced to rubble, and its population, numbering in the millions, was killed in the blast.