Empire VS. Vong

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-10-26 01:56am

One question, since I have no plans to read the NJO books....

If there was this magical "hyperspace barrier" preventing anyone from leaving the Star Wars galaxy, how could the Vong come in?

Let me guess, they don't use hyperdrive, but "turtle farts" for propulsion?

Kidding aside, I'm curious...

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-26 02:12am

They used Dovin Basals, living gravitic organisms.

As for the so-called barrier, it was believed that something like it must exist, since all attempts to travel beyond the galaxy had failed, I believe.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-26 08:00am

The barrier was an EU creation because they either wanted a Star Trek notion or they forgot that in AoTC, that intra galaxy travel was possible since amino was not in that particular galaxy but in one of the the satellite ones.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-26 10:20am

Ghost Rider wrote:The barrier was an EU creation because they either wanted a Star Trek notion or they forgot that in AoTC, that intra galaxy travel was possible since amino was not in that particular galaxy but in one of the the satellite ones.

And KOTOR had stated IIRC that intergalactic travel was normal (wasn't Czerka Corp a Intergalactic organisation?). Of course, if higher canon is required, there is AOTC.

I just wanted to point out that some EU creations snub their disdain for the idiotic notion of 'no galactic travel!'

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-10-26 11:56am

Stofsk wrote:And KOTOR had stated IIRC that intergalactic travel was normal (wasn't Czerka Corp a Intergalactic organisation?). Of course, if higher canon is required, there is AOTC. I just wanted to point out that some EU creations snub their disdain for the idiotic notion of 'no galactic travel!'

As far I can remember Czerka Corp was not intergalactic, but the Rakata homewold (the Starforge system) outside the galactic plane (it was same place as core words of republic would be in the 2D map, but beond the outer rim (of the republic).)

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-10-30 12:37am

Im pretty sure that the Kamino system is in the SW "main" galaxy, Dexter said it was BEYOND the Rischi Maze, which is the other galaxy. Ive taken some sources and some arguments on this forum and implied that the Rischi Maze is in contact with the SW "main" galaxy. Its in it, the Rischi galaxy which is very small collided with the SW galaxy and as of "right now" it is in the SW galaxy.

Now about the NJO not leaving the galaxy thing. The EU author never says themselves that you cant leave the galaxy but the people of the SW galaxy say that. Remember that these people are the next generation after the failed OutBound Flight Project. During the time of its voyage the people believed that they can leave the galaxy, they wouldnt have funded a plan if not. Now that that generation is pretty much old or dead by the time of the NJO the next generation of people may have been "told" that it is impossible to leave the galaxy by Palpatine when they were kids or by their parents under the New Order. No actuall evidence is there of what Palpatine told the people when he had the OutBound Flight Project destroyed. he could have said "The ship with the Jedi and technitions reached the Galactic plane and sadly was ripped apart by Intergalactic radiation and other forces.
And the fact that most people never knew that Kamino existed not even in the Old Republic what makes you think they know about it in the NJO era or of the Rischi maze itself it is in the Outer Rim

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-30 02:44am

Tychu wrote:Im pretty sure that the Kamino system is in the SW "main" galaxy, Dexter said it was BEYOND the Rischi Maze, which is the other galaxy. Ive taken some sources and some arguments on this forum and implied that the Rischi Maze is in contact with the SW "main" galaxy. Its in it, the Rischi galaxy which is very small collided with the SW galaxy and as of "right now" it is in the SW galaxy.

Kamino's post-PT fate is going to depend greatly on what happens in ROTS. We know that the CIS attacked them 2 months after Geonosis, trying to prevent any further Clonetrooper reinforcements from joining the main Republic forces. In addition, both Republic and CIS forces went after Cartao and its Spaarti cloning facilities, thought thanks to the Thrawn trilogy and Dark Empire, we get a better idea of its fate.

Once Palpatine is secure in power, does he blow the planet back to the Stone Age in order to prevent the Kaminoans from taking cloning orders from potential rivals and opponents to Palpatine or does he maintain a large Imperial presence on the planet to keep the cloners producing troopers until he can get the regular Stormtroopers up and running? Or, with their location not known to the galaxy at large, allow them to keep thier isolaton?

(I'm going to try to tackle this question in my crossover, as of course Shinzon and the Scimitar are now on their way to Kamino)

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-30 02:58am

Lord Revan wrote:As far I can remember Czerka Corp was not intergalactic, but the Rakata homewold (the Starforge system) outside the galactic plane (it was same place as core words of republic would be in the 2D map, but beond the outer rim (of the republic).)

I don't think it was stated in dialogue. IIRC it was stated in one of those 'loading' screens, which were often accompanied by some small piece of trivia.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-10-30 03:00am

While I don't want a big debate about cannon hierarchy, it must be pointed out that NJO was started well before AOTC , let alone KOTOR, came out, and the idea which charecters held about extra galactic travel being impossible was introduced very early on. While new cannon has shown this belief to be false, it was already proved false by the Vong. Now it seems like a lot of you hate the EU, which is within your rights, but please stop dredging up this argument about a galactic barrier in every topic related to eu and cannon. The author's did not state that there was a barrier, only that some charecters had theorized about such a barrier. No barrier, no EU cannon inconsistency, just understandable charecter confusion from people who gre up durring or after a regime that did everything it could to supress knowledge and history. If you hate the EU, fine, but let this go.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-30 03:53am

Tychu wrote:Im pretty sure that the Kamino system is in the SW "main" galaxy, Dexter said it was BEYOND the Rischi Maze, which is the other galaxy. Ive taken some sources and some arguments on this forum and implied that the Rischi Maze is in contact with the SW "main" galaxy. Its in it, the Rischi galaxy which is very small collided with the SW galaxy and as of "right now" it is in the SW galaxy.

No that's wrong; the SW galaxy is not warped by tidal forces; and the distances described in ITW of AOTC proves it is beyond the rim.

Tychu wrote:Now about the NJO not leaving the galaxy thing. The EU author never says themselves that you cant leave the galaxy but the people of the SW galaxy say that. Remember that these people are the next generation after the failed OutBound Flight Project. During the time of its voyage the people believed that they can leave the galaxy, they wouldnt have funded a plan if not. Now that that generation is pretty much old or dead by the time of the NJO the next generation of people may have been "told" that it is impossible to leave the galaxy by Palpatine when they were kids or by their parents under the New Order. No actuall evidence is there of what Palpatine told the people when he had the OutBound Flight Project destroyed. he could have said "The ship with the Jedi and technitions reached the Galactic plane and sadly was ripped apart by Intergalactic radiation and other forces.
And the fact that most people never knew that Kamino existed not even in the Old Republic what makes you think they know about it in the NJO era or of the Rischi maze itself it is in the Outer Rim

Hyperspace is not a medium; this is impossible, and the Vong themselves proved such.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-30 03:55am

I agree with your theory on Palpatine's "PR" in regards to the Outbond Flight Project:

"The ship with the Jedi and technitions reached the Galactic plane and sadly was ripped apart by Intergalactic radiation and other forces."

If an entire generation grows up hearing the same lie over and over again, they'll believe it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-30 08:41am

UCBooties wrote:While I don't want a big debate about cannon hierarchy, it must be pointed out that NJO was started well before AOTC , let alone KOTOR, came out, and the idea which charecters held about extra galactic travel being impossible was introduced very early on. While new cannon has shown this belief to be false, it was already proved false by the Vong. Now it seems like a lot of you hate the EU, which is within your rights, but please stop dredging up this argument about a galactic barrier in every topic related to eu and cannon. The author's did not state that there was a barrier, only that some charecters had theorized about such a barrier. No barrier, no EU cannon inconsistency, just understandable charecter confusion from people who gre up durring or after a regime that did everything it could to supress knowledge and history. If you hate the EU, fine, but let this go.

You do grasp that iunder the rules of suspension of disbelife the very fact that the characters believe it is WHY we bring it up in the first place, right?

So yes, we bring it because it's wrong, not because anyone gives a flying fuck of their personal opinion towards the EU.

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2004-10-30 12:16pm

"The ship with the Jedi and technitions reached the Galactic plane and sadly was ripped apart by Intergalactic radiation and other forces."

"And other forces"? That part actually is true. Second best way to tell a lie is by including some truth in it.

Best lies are the truth, that nobody believes.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-30 12:30pm

Palpatine doesn't dick around with weird alien shit - look at how he decided to deal with the Oswaft race, and that was just for the crime of existing. He sent the largest armada in Imperial history to acquire the Teezl creature and return it to Coruscant.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-10-30 01:00pm

Ghost Rider wrote:You do grasp that iunder the rules of suspension of disbelife the very fact that the characters believe it is WHY we bring it up in the first place, right?

So yes, we bring it because it's wrong, not because anyone gives a flying fuck of their personal opinion towards the EU.

Yes, but even under suspension of disbelief it's still a non issue, because it's disproved by book three. There is no barrier, everyone knows there's no barrier, so why does everyone keep bringing it up like its some huge Trek style brainbug? The misperception of a charecter who's describing an untested hypothesis does not mean that there is magicly a barrier around the galaxy. People are talking as if there is such a thing, when it's a moot point.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-30 03:52pm

UCBooties wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:You do grasp that iunder the rules of suspension of disbelife the very fact that the characters believe it is WHY we bring it up in the first place, right?

So yes, we bring it because it's wrong, not because anyone gives a flying fuck of their personal opinion towards the EU.
Yes, but even under suspension of disbelief it's still a non issue, because it's disproved by book three. There is no barrier, everyone knows there's no barrier, so why does everyone keep bringing it up like its some huge Trek style brainbug? The misperception of a charecter who's describing an untested hypothesis does not mean that there is magicly a barrier around the galaxy. People are talking as if there is such a thing, when it's a moot point.

Did you read that I said it's because of that very reason of WHY. Because a person said it, it got debated.

Read before opening your mouth.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-10-30 04:56pm

yes, but it was proven wrong in the book, to the charecters who believed it. So why is it brought up as if it were an issue? It's not there, the charecters know it's not there, but it keeps being brought up as if it is there. That's what I want to know. Even under suspension of disbelief, one charecter saying somthig doesn't mean it's true, it just means that charecter is wrong.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-30 05:08pm

UCBooties wrote:yes, but it was proven wrong in the book, to the charecters who believed it. So why is it brought up as if it were an issue? It's not there, the charecters know it's not there, but it keeps being brought up as if it is there. That's what I want to know. Even under suspension of disbelief, one charecter saying somthig doesn't mean it's true, it just means that charecter is wrong.

It's discussed the same reason that people discuss whether the Empire was an organization of evil or was it just a misconception of NEw Republic propaganda.

Or do you not grasp why people bring up subjects that have been covered time and time again shown differently?

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-10-30 06:27pm

Ghost Rider wrote:It's discussed the same reason that people discuss whether the Empire was an organization of evil or was it just a misconception of NEw Republic propaganda.

They were evil. I thought that that was obvious.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-30 06:28pm

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:It's discussed the same reason that people discuss whether the Empire was an organization of evil or was it just a misconception of NEw Republic propaganda.
They were evil. I thought that that was obvious.

To you, to many...yes.

To other they were a legit government who's actions were justified.

That's the reason I gave it as an example as something people precieve as obvious but is still debated in these circles to this day.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2004-10-30 07:06pm

Ghost Rider wrote:To you, to many...yes.

In think you mean to all but a fanatical, delusional few who prefer fanwanks to evidence.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-30 07:07pm

Graeme Dice wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:To you, to many...yes.
In think you mean to all but a fanatical, delusional few who prefer fanwanks to evidence.

Okay, granted

.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-10-30 07:51pm

Um, I thought it was pretty well implied that the Vong used normal newtonian thrust to get from their galaxy to the SW galaxy. It took them generations or some such.

Their darkspace drive's were comparable to SW hyperdrives, and if a SW hyperdrive can cross the Galaxy or atleast half way across the galaxy in a day or so, then bridging the expanse between two galaxies shouldn't be generations long (depending on how far out the other galaxy is). I could see years, but not generations.

That said, if the Vong used thrust to get here, then it might indicate that there is indeed a limit as to using Hyperspace engines outside of a galaxy. Why this would be? Beats me.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-10-30 08:01pm

Quick math;

http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m031.html

If the Andromeda Galaxy is roughly 2.9 million ly away (am I reading 2900kly right?) and...

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/ast122/lectures/lec25.html

And if our own is roughly 80,000 ly.

If you take the fact that Darth Maul traveled roughly halfway across the SW galaxy in a day, then traveling roughly 40,000 LY in a day would enable you to travel 2.9 million LY's in 72.5 years.

While technically 'generations' it doesn't exactly fit with how the Vong view their long trip and the mythology of the Vong and the fact that they forgot so much as to what and who they were.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-10-30 08:05pm

Knife wrote:Quick math;

http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m031.html

If the Andromeda Galaxy is roughly 2.9 million ly away (am I reading 2900kly right?) and...

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/ast122/lectures/lec25.html

And if our own is roughly 80,000 ly.

If you take the fact that Darth Maul traveled roughly halfway across the SW galaxy in a day, then traveling roughly 40,000 LY in a day would enable you to travel 2.9 million LY's in 72.5 years.

While technically 'generations' it doesn't exactly fit with how the Vong view their long trip and the mythology of the Vong and the fact that they forgot so much as to what and who they were.

That would be 72.5 days.

Maul traveled 40,000ly in 1 day...

2,900,000ly / 40,000ly = 72.5 days

EDIT: The SW galaxy is 120,000ly, at least that is what it is supposed to say in the SW:E. So Maul actually traveled 60,000ly in a day.

2,900,000ly / 60,000ly = 48.3 days