Was Vader going all out?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-10-27 02:04pm

The duel on Bespin I always got the impression that Vader kept upping the ante against Luke to test his limits and in the final attack when he surprises Luke in the tower and brutally drives him to the end of the catwalk Vader was in full on attack mode, overwhelming Luke's defenses but not before he got in a good hit on Vader.

If we assume this can we then assume that a sufficiently agile Jedi would own Vader in a straight on duel? Think Obi Wan in TPM, Yoda in AOTC and Luke in ROTJ. They could easily outmanuver the lumbering fighter and take him out. Does this sort of fly in the face of the image of Vader hunting down Jedi knights in the Purge? Will the Purge see the majority of Jedi killed BEFORE he becomes Vader thus explaining why a flipping cartwheeling knight didn't hand him his ass earlier?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-27 02:09pm

Actually I doubt it both times.

Until Luke got pissed, Luke was decidely holding back and Vader was at odds at what should he do. Get his son to turn for him or have him get killed. The novel goes into more detail that he could've killed Luke almost anytime before then and only got caught off guard at the end with Leia bit.

In ESB...he was toying with Luke, because he wanted to see how good was his son.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-27 02:11pm

The purge involved lots of Jedi dying from orbital bombardment, or simply being swamped by overwhelming numbers of conventional ground troops.

In fact, technology can create a top-notch Jedi-killer without having to rely on force-sensitivity at all, as demonstrated by Gen. Grevous.

spideycw · Post by **spideycw** » 2004-10-27 02:14pm

Shadows of the Empire
Pg 48

When they fought, he had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit.

Just thought this would give a view on how much effort Vader was actually putting into the fight. He was just testing Luke and using words like "easily" makes it sound like he definately wasn't pushing himself on Bespin.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2004-10-27 02:28pm

Jean Paul wrote:The purge involved lots of Jedi dying from orbital bombardment, or simply being swamped by overwhelming numbers of conventional ground troops.

In fact, technology can create a top-notch Jedi-killer without having to rely on force-sensitivity at all, as demonstrated by Gen. Grevous.

How do you know this?? For all we know Gen Greivous is a Force adept.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-10-27 02:28pm

Jean Paul wrote:The purge involved lots of Jedi dying from orbital bombardment, or simply being swamped by overwhelming numbers of conventional ground troops.

AotC shows us that John Q. Jedi doesn't hold up well against overwhelming numbers or weapons that deal unblockable blast-type damage.

It's also fair to assume that stormtroopers >>> battledroids. Vader's role in the purge was more likely helping the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights; just like Kenobi says. It's not like he had to land and dispatch them in an honorable duel. But the Empire would have a hard time finding a hiding Jedi without having Force-sensitive operatives itself. Vader was far more indispensible in the hunt than in the kill.

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-27 03:13pm

The fact is, if the purge consisted of Vader single handedly killing them all by himself, then he would have been killed. The Jedi would figure out his MO, and then bait some planet with an apparent single Jedi. Vader comes down to kill him, and gets jumped by 50 or more Jedi at once.

I don't think being the Chosen One would save him against those odds.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-10-27 06:00pm

The Force plays a powerful role in combat; Anakin Skywalker used telekinesis to erect ethereal “barriers” in his lightsabre duel with Dooku of Sorenno, limiting his mobility. Lord Vader's awesome power in the Force could allow him to overwhelm more agile and more adept swordsmen and martial artists among the Jedi he was sent to destroy. In this way he would slaughter them by removing their advantage in agility.

Alternatively, the duel in The Empire Strikes Back reflects a Lord Vader still continuing to hold himself back, or intentionally using a form of combat which would demoralize the would-be Jedi Knight, or alternatively an older, slower Vader, considering his aggressive duel with the Jedi Master known as “The Dark Woman” in Star Wars: Tales.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-10-27 06:06pm

According to Shadows, Vader was testing Luke and he was surprised at how well Luke was holding his own. I think Shadows says something to the effect that if Vader pushed him further opening him up to the Darkside, Luke would've kicked his ass, but Vader threw him off with his revelation that he was Luke's father. I could be wrong, someone please check.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-27 06:32pm

Jean Paul wrote:The purge involved lots of Jedi dying from orbital bombardment, or simply being swamped by overwhelming numbers of conventional ground troops.

In fact, technology can create a top-notch Jedi-killer without having to rely on force-sensitivity at all, as demonstrated by Gen. Grevous.

I think it's likely that Grevious was a force adept- either that, or the Jedi are just idiots.

If I were a Jedi and General Grevious jumped me (assuming he has no force powers), I would use the force to pin his mechanical body to the wall, or perhaps tear out some of his circuits or rip his limbs off. If he doesn't have the force, theres nothing he can do to stop that unless he carries a Ysalamiri on his back.

Though the Jedi should have also taken out the Droidekas in TPM with a force blast, as well...

spideycw · Post by **spideycw** » 2004-10-27 07:39pm

You are absolutely correct Try. Vader says if Luke had given in fully to his anger he could have defeated him. Also if you scroll up a bit I posted a quote about Vader testing his son as opposed to committing to all out combat against him.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-10-27 11:21pm

Trytostaydead wrote:According to Shadows, Vader was testing Luke and he was surprised at how well Luke was holding his own. I think Shadows says something to the effect that if Vader pushed him further opening him up to the Darkside, Luke would've kicked his ass, but Vader threw him off with his revelation that he was Luke's father. I could be wrong, someone please check.

By the time Vader revealed that he was Luke's father, the fight was already over. Luke had lost his hand and his lightsabre. Kinda tough to go on fighting in that condition.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-28 01:01am

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Trytostaydead wrote:According to Shadows, Vader was testing Luke and he was surprised at how well Luke was holding his own. I think Shadows says something to the effect that if Vader pushed him further opening him up to the Darkside, Luke would've kicked his ass, but Vader threw him off with his revelation that he was Luke's father. I could be wrong, someone please check.
By the time Vader revealed that he was Luke's father, the fight was already over. Luke had lost his hand and his lightsabre. Kinda tough to go on fighting in that condition.

You can always throw yourself at them and hope the splattering blood blinds them or makes them pass out...

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2004-10-28 01:57am

There are plenty of back and forth explanations. However, let's look strictly at the movies themselves.

In Empire Strikes Back there can be NO debate. Vader was TESTING Luke. There's no if ands or buts on that one. Vader persuaded the Emperor to try and turn Luke to the darkside. We know Vader wanted Luke pretty damn bad. Luke's lucky swipe was Vader pressing Luke, then in a moment of outrage Vader just fucked him up on reflex. It was obvious, Luke wasn't going to tap no damn dark side and beat Vader.

Return of the Jedi is something entirely different. That fight was Vader holding back and Luke TESTING him. The line 'I know there's good in you' just keeps ringing out in that fight. How hard was Luke trying? Not very. He'd lower his defenses, he'd jump out of the way, he'd hide. The only time Luke was actually fighting was when Vader threatened Leia. Once Luke made the initial charge it becomes quite apparent that both parties are in it for the final win. Luke just had more emotion and more motivation to finally defeat Vader.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-10-28 05:58am

IIRC in SotE Vader refers to Luke as the most powerfull Jedi of all.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-10-28 08:25am

The thing to remember, is that Lord Vader isn't, as Lucas erroneously claimed, a cripple. He has full mobility. Look at him walk around in the films, the only real problem he has in terms of movement is the risk of tripping over his cape and robes. Jedi speed comes from the force. Nothing prevents Vader zooming around like Qui Gon and Obi Wan in TPM if he wishes to.

It is important to remember that Sith Lord lightsabre (single blade) fighting is different from the Form IV used in the prequels. A Sith Lord seeks out Jedi and kills them one on one, or one on two. He does not, as a rule, have to parry blasters (hell, Vader could just block them with his hand) or move around to counter many enemies - he usually has goons like stormtroopers to do that sort of thing for him. Naturally, the chosen single blade styles are not going to be the agile form IV, ideal for destroying battle droids, but manifestly inferior to a more focused style like Dooku's Form II when used for single combat, simply because the wide strokes and acrobatic movements that are ideal for deflecting blaster bolts or killing battle-droids are wasteful in comparison to a simple stab, (economy of movement) that would be harder to parry with the form IV style, especially given the ability of a force weilding opponent to dampen the powers which allow feats of extreme speed and strength.

Were Vader fighting a multitude of opponents (I'm looking at you Stavro

) it's not inconceivable that he would temporarily switch back to the styles Anakin would have learnt in his youth, and become a black and crimson blur of death.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-28 10:38am

NecronLord wrote:The thing to remember, is that Lord Vader isn't, as Lucas erroneously claimed, a cripple. He has full mobility. Look at him walk around in the films, the only real problem he has in terms of movement is the risk of tripping over his cape and robes. Jedi speed comes from the force. Nothing prevents Vader zooming around like Qui Gon and Obi Wan in TPM if he wishes to.

It is important to remember that Sith Lord lightsabre (single blade) fighting is different from the Form IV used in the prequels. A Sith Lord seeks out Jedi and kills them one on one, or one on two. He does not, as a rule, have to parry blasters (hell, Vader could just block them with his hand) or move around to counter many enemies - he usually has goons like stormtroopers to do that sort of thing for him. Naturally, the chosen single blade styles are not going to be the agile form IV, ideal for destroying battle droids, but manifestly inferior to a more focused style like Dooku's Form II when used for single combat, simply because the wide strokes and acrobatic movements that are ideal for deflecting blaster bolts or killing battle-droids are wasteful in comparison to a simple stab, (economy of movement) that would be harder to parry with the form IV style, especially given the ability of a force weilding opponent to dampen the powers which allow feats of extreme speed and strength.

Were Vader fighting a multitude of opponents (I'm looking at you Stavro ) it's not inconceivable that he would temporarily switch back to the styles Anakin would have learnt in his youth, and become a black and crimson blur of death.

I agree wholeheartedly. The "Vader's a cripple" thing annoys me.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-10-28 10:50am

Vympel wrote: I agree wholeheartedly. The "Vader's a cripple" thing annoys me.

Just exploring a point of drama here - doesn't it add to the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker that he went from this fully healthy, agile, powerful virile handsome young man into an exact opposite when he joins the dak side in a quest for power. It is deliciously ironic that in his quest for even more power to make sure people stop dying that he becomes a walking iron lung who is literally not half the man he used to be. So much so that Palpy is already looking to his son for a replacement for the crippled old man.

It also plays to the theme of appearances. Judge me by my size do you? Yoda is a tiny green creature that happens to be one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy. Vader who looks the part of the uber powerful dark side user is actually a tired old man desperately looking for a way to get rid of his master before his master gets rid of him.

When we saw ROTJ alot of people were shocked when Luke takes off the mask at the end. We were exepcting many things. A tired old bald man was not something that many were expecting and thus playing to GL's themes of appearances can be deceiving.

Hell even the rebel victory at Endor plays to this theme. We've believed for three movies that the Empire is this invincible war machine when we find out that its all bluster and appearance. Vader being the Empire personafied is the microcosm of this idea. He looks big bad and scary when the truth is so much more ironic.

I like the idea. I think its one of those genius themes that I love GL for in his writing.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-28 10:59am

Stravo wrote: Just exploring a point of drama here - doesn't it add to the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker that he went from this fully healthy, agile, powerful virile handsome young man into an exact opposite when he joins the dak side in a quest for power. It is deliciously ironic that in his quest for even more power to make sure people stop dying that he becomes a walking iron lung who is literally not half the man he used to be. So much so that Palpy is already looking to his son for a replacement for the crippled old man.

I think it's sufficient for tragedy purposes that he's grievously disfigured and lost the woman he loves, as well as gone over to evil. When you extend that to "he's a cripple", it works against one of the best things about a great good vs evil film- a fantastic villain. Anything that weakens the villain is shit.

It also plays to the theme of appearances. Judge me by my size do you? Yoda is a tiny green creature that happens to be one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy. Vader who looks the part of the uber powerful dark side user is actually a tired old man desperately looking for a way to get rid of his master before his master gets rid of him.

He's only 41, I wouldn't call anyone an old man until they've hit at least 55, and 60 more likely. Besides, the apprentice getting rid of his master is part of the Sith way.

When we saw ROTJ alot of people were shocked when Luke takes off the mask at the end. We were exepcting many things. A tired old bald man was not something that many were expecting and thus playing to GL's themes of appearances can be deceiving.

Non-SOD here, but Sebastian Shaw was a bad casting choice for Vader, in retrospect. He was too old for the part, considering the prequel timeline. Now, back to SOD, he looked tired because he was- he had lost his hand for a second time and had been immolated with force lightning- but the way he moves, looks and fights in all three films is *not* that of a tired old man- it's that of a bodybuilder in his early 40s (Prowse)- he has no trouble moving- he's strong, overpowering, tall and even quite fast (see him lop Luke's hand off) when he needs to be.

(Also, it's interesting to note that the timeline for Anakin's age established by the PT is in perfect harmony with Prowses age)

Hell even the rebel victory at Endor plays to this theme. We've believed for three movies that the Empire is this invincible war machine when we find out that its all bluster and appearance. Vader being the Empire personafied is the microcosm of this idea. He looks big bad and scary when the truth is so much more ironic.

I like the idea. I think its one of those genius themes that I love GL for in his writing.

If you're correct (and personally I just think it's shitty writing). See my "anything that weakens the villain is shit" point. This is quite possibly why many people consider ROTJ to be the absolute low-point of the OT. I thought it was very stupid of GL. By contrast, TESB is loved by all, as is ANH- neither weaken the villain.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-28 11:19am

Not to hijack, but why was Sebastian Shaw chosen to be the Face of Anakin when Prowse had been in the suit for all three films? I'm sure there's an interesting and trivial factoid about this...

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-10-28 12:20pm

Stofsk wrote:Not to hijack, but why was Sebastian Shaw chosen to be the Face of Anakin when Prowse had been in the suit for all three films? I'm sure there's an interesting and trivial factoid about this...

Have you heard him speak? There's some scenes of him speaking in ANH in the DVD extras and he sounds like a total pansy. Trust me, we would not want to hear that voice emanating from Vader.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2004-10-28 01:44pm

I agree with agility not really playing a part in Vader's fighting style. As shown by Dooku, one doesn't need to dance and flip around to mount an effective offence and defence in a duel. Vader grew up and took on a more mature fighting style, only using as much energy as was necessary and despensing with extranious sword flurishes and dancing.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-10-28 01:51pm

Mark S wrote:I agree with agility not really playing a part in Vader's fighting style. As shown by Dooku, one doesn't need to dance and flip around to mount an effective offence and defence in a duel. Vader grew up and took on a more mature fighting style, only using as much energy as was necessary and despensing with extranious sword flurishes and dancing.

That reminds me. It was really cool to see that even as an old man, Obi Wan liked his occasional flourish ie. in the ANH duel he spins his whole body when parrying Vader at one point - a move that Luke copies in his duel on Bespin which made me cheer as a kid because I knew it was a call back to Obi Wan and showed Luke was following his original teacher in his style. An homage completed when he fashions his lightsaber to be like Ben's not his father's. (Kind of annoying when Palpy says "Much like your father's" I wanted Luke to retort "No dumbass look closer its nothing like my dad's its like Ben Kenobi the only real father figure I had.)

Jean Paul · Post by **Jean Paul** » 2004-10-28 02:33pm

Praxis wrote:
Jean Paul wrote:The purge involved lots of Jedi dying from orbital bombardment, or simply being swamped by overwhelming numbers of conventional ground troops.

In fact, technology can create a top-notch Jedi-killer without having to rely on force-sensitivity at all, as demonstrated by Gen. Grevous.
If I were a Jedi and General Grevious jumped me (assuming he has no force powers), I would use the force to pin his mechanical body to the wall, or perhaps tear out some of his circuits or rip his limbs off. If he doesn't have the force, theres nothing he can do to stop that unless he carries a Ysalamiri on his back.

How strong is his body? It looks spindly by our standards, but since the metals and composites available in the OR era are apparently much stronger than those available on earth today, his body could well be as strong as a chunky, thick-steel armoured construct. Those spindly limbs could have the power of a hydraulic excavator arm. Most Jedi did not have TK of the level to defeat something like that. Some did, but not many.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-10-28 03:20pm

The thing is... Vader can't possibly be a cripple. Imagine it "This technological terror you've constructed, it is insignificant next to the power of the force... I can't get up these stairs, Motti, can you help me?"

Furthermore, the idea that Star Wars can make a droid like the R2 unit (or Guri) and not make prostetics for the galaxy's second richest man that are superior to the original is really pissing on the grave of credibility. I would expect Vader to be able to punch his way through the walls of my house with no difficulty even not using the force to be honest.